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[Show and Book SPOILERS] I don't understand [scene with Cersei and Jaime]


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"That's one of the best speeches in the series, and it's the times they live in. The Hound is saying, "Arya. You're a lot like your father. Don't be too much like your father or you're going to end up dead.""

Further indication of what's fundamentally wrong with the show. So many people involved(directors to actors to the show runners themselves) either haven't read the source material or don't understand the characters and their motivations.

Arya is not like Ned. Arya doesn't operate like her father did at all. Arya hides and runs and kills in cold blood. Arya has no problem lying and deceiving and is extremely jaded by this point. Sandor is supposed to be an observant guy. He reads people well. This isn't a speech he should be giving. Especially when one considers his relationship with Sansa.

I was surprised to see that Emilia Clarke constantly refers to the book.

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look children she is gripping the nub at the end of the scene and never once says NO....rape...that is stretching the action...for me jamie is obviously pissed off that she has shunned him since his return and now demands he kill his brother with no more evidence than a hand gesture by a dying man....




...if i was jamie, having fucked her with consent all of my adult life (and only her), i might have been tempted to take some at that moment when he realized she was a heartless hateful bitch...








She was a slave girl forced into prostitution. She got no money from it and had no choice. Tyrion knew this but forced her anyway. It was rape.






if that is rape then every sex scene in this show...except the red viper and his beloved basterd....is rape...which woman has had sex in this show that wasn't taken against her will or at least for free...because even the whores don't get to keep the money...it goes to the brothel owner...





My wife has a minority opinion that the show scene wasn't rape. She says that Cersei's body language didn't match her words. Cersei could have thrown one-armed Jaime off any time & screamed for guards. By the time they were on the floor he leg was wrapped around him. She could have turned it into much more of a scuffle than she did.



In our modern world, we're all taught that "no means no". But in Westeros, you gotta smack someone hard to mean no, and I think Jaime and most of all Cersei knows this. She has no problem smacking people when she means it.



I think the director was too subtle in showing "consensualness" given his audience.





my niece agrees and so do i...though i just re-watched it and while jamie is not wearing armor (as my niece first commented) he is in fact not dressed to fuck easily...



...like always this is just this asshole's opinion...take it or leave it, at your pleasure



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I see her consenting in the books both verbally and physically, as proof we later have her POV and not once does she reflect on Jaime as one who took her by force.

I disagree:

There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. "No," she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, "not here. The septons…"

"The Others can take the septons." He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother's altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon's blood was on her, but it made no difference.

He's plainly forcing himself on her, his actions here are not out of love, but lust/power. Reading that scene I really don't think Jaime would have stopped for any reason. Cersei not reflecting on that moment doesn't prove anything, and I suspect it's not the first time in their relationship Jaime was aggressive. Didn't he pull the same thing in Winterfell, where Cersei thought it was too risky to have sex?

Was interested to read the summary for this chapter at Tower of the Hand:

Jaime goes to the sept to see Cersei, who is praying for Joffrey. Ser Osmund guards the door and does not recognize him at first, but finally lets him through. Cersei is disheveled and amazed to see him. She tells him of Tyrion's threat to turn her joy to ashes2 and says he killed Joffrey. Jaime is starting to believe this, but he recoils at doing what she wants, killing Tyrion in his cell. He forces himself upon her, and they have sex.
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I disagree:

He's plainly forcing himself on her, his actions here are not out of love, but lust/power. Reading that scene I really don't think Jaime would have stopped for any reason. Cersei not reflecting on that moment doesn't prove anything, and I suspect it's not the first time in their relationship Jaime was aggressive. Didn't he pull the same thing in Winterfell, where Cersei thought it was too risky to have sex?

Was interested to read the summary for this chapter at Tower of the Hand:

Here's the full scene:

She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her. “I am not whole without you.”

There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons…”

“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

Note that she consents before he enters her. She consents verbally. Her hands even help guide him.

If you still disagree, then that's your prerogative, but it won;t change my mind.

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Outside "quickly" and "sweet brother" the show visual shots were quite well to the book. It was a dark and nasty moment.

That Jamie has a "Raptist" stigma to all Non-Book fans is a horrendous fail of the show. Though with the book as much it was consenual in it did have a violence all the same. I find it amazing how many over-romanticized the scene.

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Rape is not a frelling slip up!! Rape is repulsive to Jaime. Jaime, the man who lived his entire life having known only one woman, is not a man that uses sex as an expression of anything but love! It's not an expression of power to him, it's not a physical desire that he submits to (otherwise he would have shared his bed with another woman by now". His entire existence he has equated sex with love and therefor only with Cersie.

The scene in the sept in the books was an expression of how much he loved and missed his sister/lover. The sept scene in the show is an expression of anger and a need to dominate Cersie. That's not Jaime. Sex to him was never a weapon or a tool. With all due respect to the psychologist you reference, but he is wrong, imo.

First, showJaime isn't the same than bookJaime. And two, if we're mixing both of them, Jaime is a man who almost killed TWO kids so his sister/lover would be happy and they could continue their incestuous and amoral relationship. I definitly disagree on this action being worst than what he has done before, It's not that RAPE is repulsive for Jaime. Jaime IS repulsive. He told Brienne "you know what? You're about to be raped: don't fight them and think of Renly". If we're going to use our 21th Century morals, then that speech is quite condemnable because it's what many women were told about 30 years ago about the subject of rape: don't fight and let him do as you will so you won't die. And while Jaime don't use sex as a weapon, Cersei does: she uses sex BEFORE he asks him anything, either be in the KG, kill Arya or who knows what else. Does Cersei gets the same treatment Jaime does? They both are disgusting, to be honest: their relationship has caused a war and they don't even care about how many people have died just because they couldn't get away from each other. Let's not try to put this single scene as the top of the horrible things Jaime has done because it's definitely not the worst, specially in show.

And you think the scene in the books is about love? Jaime pretty much says "oh, fuck, you lost a kid? I'll give you other!", like it's not a big problem and that hasn't cause any more problems. Her son just died and you can't keep your paws away from her? He loves her so much that he didn't care if suddenly their father could have enter? Or a sept? Or a Tyrell? I'm sure that Jaime has somehow loved Cersei before, but that was nothing but lust.

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There was nothing wrong with the Jaime/Cersei scene.



People are just mad because:



1. They misinterpreted it and missed the obvious signs from Cersei that she wasn't exactly unwilling.



2. They want a simplistic, cliche transformation for Jaime where he goes from devious villain to perfect knight. The fact that Jaime is still a morally complicated individual despite revealing his good side confuses and enrages people. They don't know whether to get behind him or boo at him, so they boo at the producers.


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Most of Cersei's actions in that scene correspond with what she's saying. She repeatedly tries to push him away from her. Her strongest attempt to get him off comes five seconds before the scene concludes when they're on the floor and it's followed by a very clear shove towards his face.There's nothing to suggest that it "becomes consensual by the end".


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Can provide links please? That would help a lot.

Alex Graves: "..and then Jaime comes in and he rapes her."

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-director-controversial-scene-697733

Benioff: "Cersei is resisting. She's saying 'no' and he's forcing himself on her"

http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_showrunners_call_rape_a_horrifying_scene-2014-04

Nikolaj: "she pulls away, but of course he is forcing himself."

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2014/04/22/nikolaj-coster-waldau-on-that-controversial-jaime-cersei-scene-from-game-of-thrones-breaker-of-chains-episode

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You don't know how sexual abuse actually happens.

That comment is completely uncalled for.

You don't know anything about the person you're responding to. Just because they don't share your opinion, is no reason to attack a stranger on an Internet forum and say something so petty.

The director says here that it's consensual. http://www.vulture.com/2014/04/game-of-thrones-director-on-the-rape-sex-scene.html

So I guess he has no idea either, as well as GRRM, who also says it was consensual.

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Benioff says it's rape, Nikolaj says it's rape, Alex Graves says it's rape, yet some people are still in denial? Geez....

Everything i've heard from people associated with the show suggests it's intended to be at least partly consensual:

Nikolaj Coster-Waldau -

So is it rape?

“Yes, and no,” says Coster-Waldau. “There are moments where she gives in, and moments where she pushes him away. But it’s not pretty.”

Alex Graves -

"Well, it becomes consensual by the end, because anything for them ultimately results in a turn-on, especially a power struggle."

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There was nothing wrong with the Jaime/Cersei scene.

People are just mad because:

1. They misinterpreted it and missed the obvious signs from Cersei that she wasn't exactly unwilling.

2. They want a simplistic, cliche transformation for Jaime where he goes from devious villain to perfect knight. The fact that Jaime is still a morally complicated individual despite revealing his good side confuses and enrages people. They don't know whether to get behind him or boo at him, so they boo at the producers.

Point 1 just means the signs weren't obvious to the vast majority of viewers. This indicates a fault in production that they failed to convey their message correctly. It is not a fault of viewers.

Point 2 - I am sure there are some who feel this way. There are also many who recognise the book scene as being an extremely dark moment between two individuals and the show scene being entirely about the actions of one individual.

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That comment is completely uncalled for.

You don't know anything about the person you're responding to. Just because they don't share your opinion, is no reason to attack a stranger on an Internet forum and say something so petty.

The director says here that it's consensual. http://www.vulture.com/2014/04/game-of-thrones-director-on-the-rape-sex-scene.html

So I guess he has no idea either, as well as GRRM, who also says it was consensual.

I've seen his other posts about rape, and he really doesn't know how sexual abuse actually happens.

And what the director says is not relevant. If I see a video of someone getting beheaded, I'm not going to believe differently just because the director says the person didn't.

It just shows that Alex Graves does not know what a rape actually looks like.

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Most of Cersei's actions in that scene correspond with what she's saying. She repeatedly tries to push him away from her. Her strongest attempt to get him off comes five seconds before the scene concludes when they're on the floor and it's followed by a very clear shove towards his face.There's nothing to suggest that it "becomes consensual by the end".

What about her grabbing him, pulling him towards her and kissing his face off? Or was that a different person?

And I only hear her say, "Not here, it's not right." I never heard her say, "get the fuck off me." The only difference to the book scene is Jamie arrived in KL weeks ago, so Cersei has no reason to say, "you're home now."

I guess they should have added a, "yes, hurry", for those that refuse to acknowledge Cersei's actions in the scene, and are only going by her words.

It must be amazing to go through life having everyone speak the absolute truth every moment, and never experience conflicting actions/words from anyone ever. I can't even begin to imagine what that's like.

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I've seen his other posts about rape, and he really doesn't know how sexual abuse actually happens.

And what the director says is not relevant. If I see a video of someone getting beheaded, I'm not going to believe differently just because the director says the person didn't.

It just shows that Alex Graves does not know what a rape actually looks like.

Way to judge complete strangers, and dismiss and belittle everyone who was actually involved, all because you disagree with them.

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I've seen his other posts about rape, and he really doesn't know how sexual abuse actually happens.

And what the director says is not relevant. If I see a video of someone getting beheaded, I'm not going to believe differently just because the director says the person didn't.

It just shows that Alex Graves does not know what a rape actually looks like.

I know that kissing someone back and clutching at them passionately instead of showing actual signs of resistance isn't the behaviour of a rape victim.

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