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[Show and Book SPOILERS] I don't understand [scene with Cersei and Jaime]


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Point 1 just means the signs weren't obvious to the vast majority of viewers. This indicates a fault in production that they failed to convey their message correctly. It is not a fault of viewers.

Point 2 - I am sure there are some who feel this way. There are also many who recognise the book scene as being an extremely dark moment between two individuals and the show scene being entirely about the actions of one individual.

I missed the version where Cersei was drugged and tied up so she couldn't do anything. Could you link that please?

Seriously, saying Cersei did nothing, and acting like we women have zero say or control over ANY of our actions is pretty sexist. We don't all just lay there.

Cersei was complicit and responded to Jamie sexually. She never fought him off. Why not do you suppose?

If it was rape, why didn't Cersei fight, or scream?

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I'm going to break my silence vow just to point out that comments like those by "Dany's slave" are what is wrong with this discussion. Inflammatory, accusatory, and uncalled for.



No, everybody knows what the hell an actual rape looks like. You'd have to be a moron (in the original sense of the word) to miss that. Way to nitpick what NCW said in the interview to send your point home. He actually explains it quite well. That we see the scene (after some reflection) as Nikolaj sees it does not imply that we don't know where real world women's boundaries stand... and i'm starting to repeat myself too much now.



Ok, now i'm seriously going to stop. I finally start commenting in the ASOIAF boards and in a few days, this turns into the bloody Jezebel forum. Way to go.


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I know that kissing someone back and clutching at them passionately instead of showing actual signs of resistance isn't the behaviour of a rape victim.

I agree. But apparently that doesn't count in this instance. Not sure why.

And really great post Fjordgazer. Totally agree. And you nailed it with the Jezebel comparison.

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What about her grabbing him, pulling him towards her and kissing his face off? Or was that a different person?

And I only hear her say, "Not here, it's not right." I never heard her say, "get the fuck off me." The only difference to the book scene is Jamie arrived in KL weeks ago, so Cersei has no reason to say, "you're home now."

I guess they should have added a, "yes, hurry", for those that refuse to acknowledge Cersei's actions in the scene, and are only going by her words.

It must be amazing to go through life having everyone speak the absolute truth every moment, and never experience conflicting actions/words from anyone ever. I can't even begin to imagine what that's like.

Not only were those things extremely brief and not nearly as clearly represented as her physical reluctance, but they take place before the pushes that I referenced. You do realize consent can be withdrawn, right? If she's on the floor, actively pushing him while crying and saying "stop it, it's not right", then I'm inclined to believe that the sex is not at that stage consensual regardless of her previous willingness. Also, "you're home now" isn't what establishes the consent in the book scene, it's more the "do it quickly, do me now". If they want to establish the consent visually as opposed to through the dialogue then it isn't a problem but don't have her actively resist seconds before the conclusion of the scene and then suggest that it becomes consensual by the end.

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Not only were those things extremely brief and not nearly as clearly represented as her physical reluctance, but they take place before the pushes that I referenced. You do realize consent can be withdrawn, right? If she's on the floor, actively pushing him while crying and saying "stop it, it's not right", then I'm inclined to believe that the sex is not at that stage consensual regardless of her previous willingness. Also, "you're home now" isn't what establishes the consent in the book scene, it's more the "do it quickly, do me now". If they want to establish the consent visually as opposed to through the dialogue then it isn't a problem but don't have her actively resist seconds before the conclusion of the scene and then suggest that it becomes consensual by the end.

Grabbing someone and pulling them towards you isn't physical reluctance. I'm baffled you could equate the two.

Wrapping her legs around Jamie when they're on the floor isn't pushing him away. How did you miss all that?

It seems as though you're saying the most self-willed, determined woman in all of Westeros wouldn't physically fight off a one-handed man who was raping her. Are you serious? That is some pretty big character assignation right there.

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I missed the version where Cersei was drugged and tied up so she couldn't do anything. Could you link that please?

Seriously, saying Cersei did nothing, and acting like we women have zero say or control over ANY of our actions is pretty sexist. We don't all just lay there.

Cersei was complicit and responded to Jamie sexually. She never fought him off. Why not do you suppose?

If it was rape, why didn't Cersei fight, or scream?

Point one. I made no such claim.

Point two. I made no such claim. Ref: your previous post about belittling complete strangers because you disagree with them.

Point three. 'Never fought him off'... despite verbal protestations and clear attempts to pull away and push him away. 'Never' is not true.

Point four. I disagree that 'the victim didn't fight hard enough' is a valid defense.

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I'm sorry but the best they could do was have Cersei grab a table? That's supposed to show us her actions meant she wanted it?

The reason people are upset is simple. We are upset because we love the characters that Martin has given to us. We enjoy the scope that we don't get very often. And for the people in charge of this show to make Jaime do that is so extremely un-Jaime-like is what sucks.

There is a lot of rape in GRRM's world. But never once has GRRM made rape okay. It's never fucking okay. But leave it to HBO to take something GRRM uses in one way and translate it into something okay. The fact that there is any argument over this situation makes me hate this fandom. Most of us have read the five books. And me, as a feminist, has never been upset by anything Martin has done. Martin himself seems to be a pretty big feminist. This is something else.

This is rape for kicks

This is rape for talk

This is rape for the sake of what we are doing here.

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unbelievable how some people honestly choose to 'interpret' the onscreen action as Cersei consenting.



That wasn't consent. Plain and simple.



Somebody saying 'it's not right', protesting till the end, physically and violently struggling against the restraint, isn't clear enough for you?



So she's saying 'it's not right' but wrapping her legs against Jaime at the same time, that's a logical interpretation for you?



Amazing.

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Way to judge complete strangers, and dismiss and belittle everyone who was actually involved, all because you disagree with them.

Who am I judging? I'm not saying any of these people are "evil". I'm just pointing out they don't know what an actual rape looks like.

I know that kissing someone back and clutching at them passionately instead of showing actual signs of resistance isn't the behaviour of a rape victim.

The "behaviour" of a rape victim? Many times if a person is being overpowered by the rapist, they'll just "give in" and feign enjoyment to make the rapist happy. It's out of fear that if you do continue to resist, scream, etc., that you'll be hurt even further. Not hypothethical, I know people who were hurt even further for resisting or screaming for help.

Besides, other than when Cersei was kissing him, she was pushing him away the whole time, afterwards. Even in the very end she was pushing his face away.

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Not only were those things extremely brief and not nearly as clearly represented as her physical reluctance, but they take place before the pushes that I referenced. You do realize consent can be withdrawn, right? If she's on the floor, actively pushing him while crying and saying "stop it, it's not right", then I'm inclined to believe that the sex is not at that stage consensual regardless of her previous willingness. Also, "you're home now" isn't what establishes the consent in the book scene, it's more the "do it quickly, do me now". If they want to establish the consent visually as opposed to through the dialogue then it isn't a problem but don't have her actively resist seconds before the conclusion of the scene and then suggest that it becomes consensual by the end.

She kisses him back while grabbing at him after he's made his intentions clear. And when they're on the floor, she's clutching at a drape (which as others have pointed out is typical iconography for passionate, consensual lovemaking in TV/cinema) instead of making an effort to push him off.

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Grabbing someone and pulling them towards you isn't physical reluctance. I'm baffled you could equate the two.

Wrapping her legs around Jamie when they're on the floor isn't pushing him away. How did you miss all that?

It seems as though you're saying the most self-willed, determined woman in all of Westeros wouldn't physically fight off a one-handed man who was raping her. Are you serious? That is some pretty big character assignation right there.

I'm not going to address your denial of glaringly obvious visual evidence like the multiple pushes Cersei directs towards Jaime. I imagine that she wasn't capable of pushing him off once he was on top of her because he's heavier than her and she was afraid of what he might do considering he was already being abnormally aggressive.

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unbelievable how some people honestly choose to 'interpret' the onscreen action as Cersei consenting.

That wasn't consent. Plain and simple.

Somebody saying 'it's not right', protesting till the end, physically and violently struggling against the restraint, isn't clear enough for you?

So she's saying 'it's not right' but wrapping her legs against Jaime at the same time, that's a logical interpretation for you?

Amazing.

Her protesting is very hushed and more in line with someone saying "we're going to get caught if we do this" rather than "help, i'm being raped".

Even when she says "it's not right", that's just because she knows it's wrong for them to have sex next to their dead son, not because she's repulsed by the thought of having sex with her lover. She's basically conflicted about doing the act there, yet still returning some of his affections because she's not completely unwilling.

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Her protesting is very hushed and more in line with someone saying "we're going to get caught if we do this" rather than "help, i'm being raped".

Even when she says "it's not right", that's just because she knows it's wrong for them to have sex next to their dead son, not because she's repulsed by the thought of having sex with her lover. She's basically conflicted about doing the act there, yet still returning some of his affections because she's not completely unwilling.

Rape is not like in the movies. You'll be hard-pressed to find rape victims who were screaming out of their lungs for help. It does not work like that.

And the reason is very relevant to the discussion. She might want to have sex with him somewhere else, because doing it near her son's corpse would traumatize her. He disregarded that, yet she kept resisting.

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Who am I judging? I'm not saying any of these people are "evil". I'm just pointing out they don't know what an actual rape looks like.

The "behaviour" of a rape victim? Many times if a person is being overpowered by the rapist, they'll just "give in" and feign enjoyment to make the rapist happy. It's out of fear that if you do continue to resist, scream, etc., that you'll be hurt even further. Not hypothethical, I know people who were hurt even further for resisting or screaming for help.

Besides, other than when Cersei was kissing him, she was pushing him away the whole time, afterwards. Even in the very end she was pushing his face away.

And yet you continue which proves you're completely detached from your own actions towards other people, yet you claim to be the expert on sexual abuse to the point the rest if us are stupid.

Yes we know what rape looks like. Some of us personally. So stop belittling people, and implying they're stupid just because you disagree.

Cersei doesn't push him away. She recoils from his fake hand. But after he kisses her, she pulls him towards her, kisses him, and never pushes his face away. Stop making shit up to prop up your opinion.

If you cannot get past the audio to see the action that's actually happening on the screen, watch it with the sound off.

"Not here" isn't the same as "I don't want to have sex with you."

All you're doing is cherry-picking Cersei's dialog, and making up shit in the scene that didn't happen.

As for the behavior of the rape victim, we aren't talking about rape victims in general, we are talking about the fictional character of Cersei Lannister, and still no one can tell me why, if she was being raped, why didn't she kick and scream and tear his hair out, and fight like Cersei Lannister?

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Weird how people call this rape. Maybe you should pay attention to all the scenes around Jeoffrey - this is Cersie Lannister you are talking about! The very same cersie who said that women have the greatest weapon between their legs.


It was her way of getting jamie to kill tyrion.

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the "audio off" thing is kind of morbidly hilarious.



Dude, if a woman says, loudly and clearly, "it's not right", that's no.



You can't tell the audience to not listen to her vocal protests. If she's vocally protested, then done. She's not consenting.



You can't separate the audio tape from the viewing experience.



You cannot try to creatively reinterpret the physical conduct onscreen and create a grey area where none exists.

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Weird how people call this rape. Maybe you should pay attention to all the scenes around Jeoffrey - this is Cersie Lannister you are talking about! The very same cersie who said that women have the greatest weapon between their legs.

It was her way of getting jamie to kill tyrion.

It doesn't matter who it is. When someone says no and you don't stop, it's rape. Period.

If you can't grasp that then get the fuck off of this planet.

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After rewatching the scene, I wasn't pushed into the "It was a poorly directed consensual scene." If anything, it seemed more violent on the second go around. When I first watched it, I didn't notice that she rejected his first kiss and stepped a few feet away and refused to look at him. He then gets angry at her physical rejection, aggressively takes hold of her, and forcibly dominates her. She kisses him for a bit, but kissing is not a green light to bang her in a holy place next to her dead son. I also see her pushing against his chest and struggling when he is on top of her on the floor, thrusting, making it clear that at the moment of entry and after, she was still not interested. Maybe that wasn't meant to look like her struggling, but to me it did. Furthermore, her continuation of verbal protestation along with his repeated "I don't cares" makes this pretty clearly rape. If the director meant to include signs of physical consent, that was straight up a terrible idea. If someone is verbally denying a sexual partner/aggressor but giving "physical consent" then that's a problem because the interpretation of the potential/actual victim's actions are in the eye of the aggressor. She could be struggling, but he could interpret it as willful participation. This is why filming a scene this way is a bad idea: people can interpret it as "Look, she's enjoying it, if she were being raped she would try harder to get away" while nearly everyone else sees it as rape. That means that in subsequent episodes when there is no fallout from perceived violence, the show seems to be condoning rape, or at the very least sweeping its implications under the rug. (Also objecting to have sex with someone in a specific time and place IS objecting to have sex with them. Just because one is a willing sexual partner is some contexts does not give the corresponding partner rights to sex whenever, wherever, or whyever.)



So why are people so upset about this change? Because it's entirely unnecessary. One line would have changed it from obvious rape to consensual sex. In the book, Cersei gave very explicit verbal consent, so why the need to make the scene more complicated or more nuanced or more in danger of being misinterpreted? This change had nothing to do with budgeting or production challenges or page-to-screen translation issues. It seems to have everything to do with shock value and making sure everyone is talking about the show. It sets back Jaime's character development, and makes little sense in the continuity of the plot, but should that really surprise us? Sansa's development regressed quite a bit in Season 3, imo, and their apparent need to sanitize Tyrion and Dany while demonizing Stannis makes little sense, also. Turning Renly into an offensive gay caricature ("Ewwwwwwwww blood!") rather than the much more developed character of ASOIAF really did nothing for the show. The addition of Ros but the subtraction of Sansa's assertion of agency or Arya's weasel soup or the inclusion of Reek in season 2 (which, why the hell did they NOT include him? It made the burning of WF completely arbitrary and confusing) completely baffled me as well. I think we should all just assume that D&D make changes just because they think it improves the story without real consideration to the repercussions of those changes. This error is made all the more egregious because it was so blatantly unnecessary.


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Rape is not like in the movies. You'll be hard-pressed to find rape victims who were screaming out of their lungs for help. It does not work like that.

And the reason is very relevant to the discussion. She might want to have sex with him somewhere else, because doing it near her son's corpse would traumatize her. He disregarded that, yet she kept resisting.

It doesn't work like that? Because every person whose ever been raped responds exactly the same, right? Are you a rape councilor? Have you witnessed every rape ever? How many rape victims have you spoken to? How many hours a week do you spend working the rape hotline? How many rape kits have you helped girls use?

How is kissing someone and wrapping your kegs around them "resisting"?

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