[Show and Book SPOILERS] I don't understand [scene with Cersei and Jaime]

[D-Shiznit]

I could say the same to you if you'd send someone to jail based on the events in that scene.

Dude you have issues, this debate should be the least of your worries, get some help.

[Ilúvatar]

Really?!

Good God, I kinda understand a tiny teeny bit how people may think this wasn't rape when you put it in context of what we know about the relationship. To take that scene on it's own and say "yeah that's not rape", holy shit that's horrifying.

So you can understand why people believe it isn't rape, yet you'd still send Jaime to jail even though Cersei clearly manipulated him and repeatedly returned his affections during the encounter?

Now that is horrifying.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

repeatedly returned his affections during the encounter

She does pull him in to kiss, but after that she's pushing him away. Rewatch the scene. They don't even kiss once while on the ground and the last shot of Cersei's face is of her pushing his face away from hers.

[Hellothere]

So you can understand why people believe it isn't rape, yet you'd still send Jaime to jail even though Cersei clearly manipulated him and repeatedly returned his affections during the encounter?

Now that is horrifying.

What are you talking about? It's horrifying that I would send a fictional character to jail (which I didn't even say by the way)?

Let me clarify, talking about the scene in context of the relationship is one thing. Taking the scene in a vacuum and repeating the favourite excuses of date rapists is horrifying (in the true sense of the word, if you are horrified by the idea that somebody would hypothetically send a fictional character to jail then I suggest you look up the word).

[Ilúvatar]

She does pull him in to kiss, but after that she's pushing him away. Rewatch the scene. They don't even kiss once while on the ground and the last shot of Cersei's face is of her pushing his face away from hers.

Her "pushing" seems more feigned than anything. It's gentle and not indicative of someone in a great amount of distress, desperate to get away.

[Ilúvatar]

What are you talking about? It's horrifying that I would send a fictional character to jail (which I didn't even say by the way)?

Let me clarify, talking about the scene in context of the relationship is one thing. Taking the scene in a vacuum and repeating the favourite excuses of date rapists is horrifying (in the true sense of the word, if you are horrified by the idea that somebody would hypothetically send a fictional character to jail then I suggest you look up the word).

Whether he's fictional or not is irrelevant. I'm asking you whether you would send Jaime to jail based on that scene, if it were a real event that actually took place..

You're saying it's rape. Rape comes with a pretty severe, life-ruining jail sentence in most countries, which is why false accusations are such a problem in the real world.

[six]

I'd disagree that it was OOC, because I think it really shows what a destructive and corrosive effect Cersei/their relationship has on Jaime, which is consistent with the books (as is the rape). I mentioned this on the second page as well. In fact, Show!Jaime is almost committing a violent act against himself, or rather his past self in disgust/self-loathing as he's raping Cersei (not that it's excusable or justified).

Because having sex with your twin, in a sept, in front of your son's corpse doesn't showcase enough how destructive the relationship is? It bothers me that people think it as an excuse to turn a consensual scene into rape. Good storytelling shouldn't need this amount of shocking scenes only meant to shock - because yes, that's the sole reason they made this scene even more twisted that in the books, and I'm glad critics and reviewers are calling the show out as well. This is not just the case of a bunch of book purists being upset, it's the majority.

I don't know what to say to the people who keep arguing it was rape in the books either; grrm settled it.

First, showJaime isn't the same than bookJaime. And two, if we're mixing both of them, Jaime is a man who almost killed TWO kids so his sister/lover would be happy and they could continue their incestuous and amoral relationship. I definitly disagree on this action being worst than what he has done before, It's not that RAPE is repulsive for Jaime. Jaime IS repulsive. He told Brienne "you know what? You're about to be raped: don't fight them and think of Renly". If we're going to use our 21th Century morals, then that speech is quite condemnable because it's what many women were told about 30 years ago about the subject of rape: don't fight and let him do as you will so you won't die. And while Jaime don't use sex as a weapon, Cersei does: she uses sex BEFORE he asks him anything, either be in the KG, kill Arya or who knows what else. Does Cersei gets the same treatment Jaime does? They both are disgusting, to be honest: their relationship has caused a war and they don't even care about how many people have died just because they couldn't get away from each other. Let's not try to put this single scene as the top of the horrible things Jaime has done because it's definitely not the worst, specially in show.

And you think the scene in the books is about love? Jaime pretty much says "oh, fuck, you lost a kid? I'll give you other!", like it's not a big problem and that hasn't cause any more problems. Her son just died and you can't keep your paws away from her? He loves her so much that he didn't care if suddenly their father could have enter? Or a sept? Or a Tyrell? I'm sure that Jaime has somehow loved Cersei before, but that was nothing but lust.

I don't think the scene in the books is about love, there are some that have romanticised the whole Jaime/Cersei relationship and that particular scene. As grrm pointed out, it was meant to be disturbing. Still, what is the point in turning disturbing in even more disturbing?

Jaime being horrible and generally an asshole doesn't make him a rapist as well. You can't assume that because someone does something wrong, there's nothing he wouldn't do, it's an argument that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. According to his characterisation in the show, for him to rape Cersei makes no sense. It's like developing a character, and then just turn him into an even worse person than he used to be, with no explanation or rationale.

To answer the OP, two major reasons:

- Many are sick of the way sexual violence is used on the show for no other reason than shock

- It's a disservice to both Jaime, who's now a rapist, and Cersei, who they persist on writing as a toothless woobie with no agency

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

Her "pushing" seems more feigned than anything. It's gentle and not indicative of someone in a great amount of distress, desperate to get away.

You do realize that Jaime is around 80s lbs heavier, much stronger, and is almost a whole foot taller than Cersei? As they are going down she's actually pushing him back with both hands but he's much stronger so he squisher her right elbow under his body which keeps her from moving her arms and his shoulder is up against her left arm pit, which again, keeps her from using her left arm.

Go find someone that ways 80-100 lbs more than you, is a whole foot taller and much stronger. Have them lay down on top of your body and see if you can wiggle out with them trying to keep you from doing it.

[Hellothere]

Whether he's fictional or not is irrelevant. I'm asking you whether you would send Jaime to jail based on that scene, if it were a real event that actually took place..

You're saying it's rape. Rape comes with a pretty severe, life-ruining jail sentence in most countries, which is why false accusations are such a problem in the real world.

Why are you asking me this? So you can be legitimately horrified?

That scene was rape, if I saw that scene happening at the back of my house I would ring the police and say "rape", if I watched that scene in a courtroom I would say it was rape. That scene was rape.

When I heard people where arguing it wasn't I assumed that nobody in this day and age could be making arguments as pathetic as "her mouth said no but her body yes" or "she didn't try hard enough to fight him off.

There is a project where rape and abuse survivors use the words of their attackers and I swear some of the shit you are coming out with is pulled straight from their work.

[Hellothere]

Oh sweet! You must be american judging by your attitude, guess what; this story takes place in westeros not in the usa! It's all fictional just a reminder. No need to get peronal!

Baffled by the tone of your post. Ridiculing somebody for saying no means no? Are you for real?

[FalseKnight]

I know that kissing someone back and clutching at them passionately instead of showing actual signs of resistance isn't the behaviour of a rape victim.

Please stop blaming the victim for failing to skywrite "NO".

[Ilúvatar]

Please stop blaming the victim for failing to skywrite "NO".

She's not a victim.

[gatafunho]

It doesn't matter who it is. When someone says no and you don't stop, it's rape. Period.

For me, the problem is seing rape with the point of view of "Western world in 2014".

Is the scene of Jaime and Cersei rape? Depend. Certainly if it happened in Sweden in 2014 it would be rape. And maybe Jaime should be put into jail.

But since the scene happened in Westeros, the discussion has not much sense. Moral rules and laws are different. If the creators said it is (semi)consensual in Westeros, we sould accept that it fits outside the definition of Westeros-rape.

And finally that's all that matters.

If you can't grasp that then get the fuck off of this planet.

But is did not happen in THIS planet !

I can grasp it from my western chair in europe 2014. If I were to live in westeros....

[Hellothere]

For me, the problem is seing rape with the point of view of "Western world in 2014".

Is the scene of Jaime and Cersei rape? Depend. Certainly if it happened in Sweden in 2014 it would be rape. And maybe Jaime should be put into jail.

But since the scene happened in Westeros, the discussion has not much sense. Moral rules and laws are different. If the creators said it is (semi)consensual in Westeros, we sould accept that it fits outside the definition of Westeros-rape.

And finally that's all that matters.

But is did not happen in THIS planet !

I can grasp it from my western chair in europe 2014. If I were to live in westeros....

You're the first person I have saw who is arguing about whether it's legally rape in Westeros. We don't know the laws about rape in Westeros I think it's a fairly pointless discussion and it's legality in Westeros is completely irrelevant to most (if not all) of the posts here.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

If I tell someone they can't come in my house, I'm not giving them consent, regardless of the laws in the land.

Rape doesn't change just because the laws in a country permit it.

[FalseKnight]

For me, the problem is seing rape with the point of view of "Western world in o2014".

Is the scene of Jaime and Cersei rape? Depend. Certainly if it happened in Sweden in 2014 it would be rape. And maybe Jaime should be put into jail.

But since the scene happened in Westeros, the discussion has not much sense. Moral rules and laws are different. If the creators said it is (semi)consensual in Westeros, we sould accept that it fits outside the definition of Westeros-rape.

And finally that's all that matters.

But is did not happen in THIS planet !

I can grasp it from my western chair in europe 2014. If I were to live in westeros....

Do you live in. Medieval-fantasy world? It makes no sense to attempt judge it from that perspective. No one said Jaime is guilty of a crime under the law of Westeros. The only perspective we have is the modern one. Why is if so important to carve out zone of protection for Jaime?

She's not a victim.

She clearly stated verbally that she did not want to hVe sex there in the Sept, but Jaime continued. That's rape. You can talk about kissing and pulling, but it doesn't matter when she's telling him to stop.

[FalseKnight]

Duplicate post

[gatafunho]

The only perspective we have is the modern one.

I disagree. We can also judge it according to some other time or some other country. The perspective of an act and its definitions change with the time and place.

People was saying before about putting Jaime in jail and whatsoever. Do they mean in a 2014 jail?

What I mean is that the fact that is is rape or not (and it is) in western world 2014 it is irrelevant since it happens in another world, with another rules. And the creators of the world and the rules have stablished that it was not intended to be a rape.

[Hellothere]

I disagree. We can also judge it according to some other time or some other country. The perspective of an act and its definitions change with the time and place.

People was saying before about putting Jaime in jail and whatsoever. Do they mean in a 2014 jail?

What I mean is that the fact that is is rape or not (and it is) in western world 2014 it is irrelevant since it happens in another world, with another rules. And the creators of the world and the rules have stablished that it was not intended to be a rape.

I thought it was just the director saying that?

Either way that whole argument is bollocks, they creators are creating for this world.

[ovis alba]

I don't know what to say to the people who keep arguing it was rape in the books either; grrm settled it.

I don't think he did. He says Cersei ultimatly does want it, but is reluctant to actually act on it, because of the situation. Jaime basically takes the decision from her, by just forcing it and as she starts enjoing it, she eventually puts her doubts aside.

To be honest I don't want to get into the discussion if this is rape or not, but to me Jaime does not do much different here than he does in the show, because what is desribed above for some people is already enough to be defined as a rape. I think in both cases in Jaimes eyes there is a Cersei that sort of wants him, but is held back by the situation and in both cases he decides that she ultimatly wants it, although she might be protesting.

What really just changes to me is the way Cersei acts on it, but not what Jaime is doing. I think also in the show, we will end up with a Cersei what ultimatly enjoyed it, but still thinks the time and place were wrong.

I don't even want to get into it again if this is a situation you call or not call rape, because due to the nature of the characters, their previous relationship, the historical/fictional environment and the way they in the end feel about it, this is something I find hard to judge. The only thing I can judge for me is the similarity between what happens in the book and in the show and to me there is not much of a difference when it comes to Jaimes actions really. To me he does at least "risk" raping her (from a neutral point of view), although it would never feel like rape to him, because he is convinced that Cersei ultimatly feels the way he feels and he is "rescued" of "objectively" raping her by the fact that she indeed does want it, although she initially doesn't show it.