[Show and Book SPOILERS] I don't understand [scene with Cersei and Jaime]

[FalseKnight]

Sorry, you're wrong. Even the word "rape" itself originates from Roman law, and back then it was defined as simply carrying a woman off by force, regardless of whether any sexual penetration occurred.

What's considered rape in some countries or in certain historical periods isn't considered rape in others.

Do you not understand what a concept is?

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

Sorry, you're wrong. Even the word "rape" itself originates from Roman law, and back then it was defined as simply carrying a woman off by force, regardless of whether any sexual penetration occurred.

What's considered rape in some countries or in certain historical periods isn't considered rape in others.

Forced sex = rape, (made up words) galabala, ghetro, litrafix, lamafolo

Does not matter what you call it. When people use the word "rape" they are talking about forced sex, for the most part. The action of forcing someone to have sex does not change just because you're in a country where it's legal.

Jaime forced himself on Cersei. That is what the discussion is about.

[HairGrowsBack]

Have I said I have no problem with it?

Please don't put words in my mouth I have not said.

I said that judging a character with modern moral standards when is set up in a fictional world makes no sense.

Following your example, nowadays is not acceptable to put a 8 y.o to work, but in Westeros it is, and nobody is calling them children exploiters, because we understand that moral rules in westeros are different.

I just claim that with this scene we might be under the same case. It is rape in 2014 but it might not exactly considered like that in westeros.

If you follow your own logic, you shouldn't. You say it isn't rape because it wouldn't have been considered so at the time (with which I disagree), therefore Jaime (or rather, GoT writers) shouldn't be blamed for it. If you think example A, B and C are wrong, you should by all logic think the same of this scene.

[FalseKnight]

Forced sex = rape, (made up words) galabala, ghetro, litrafix, lamafolo

Does not matter what you call it. When people use the word "rape" they are talking about forced sex, for the most part. The action of forcing someone to have sex does not change just because you're in a country where it's legal.

Jaime forced himself on Cersei. That is what the discussion is about.

Rape is also coerced sex.

[six]

Thank you. I feel the same about the show version of Cersei and I always hated the changes they made to her relationship with Robert. And then they also made her look powerless in her relationship with Joffrey. Book Cersei is powerless with one man only, her father. She never complains that she can't control Joffrey.

I hate when people say that show Cersei is more "complex" than book Cersei. A character does not become more complex by being stripped of their power, agency and rough edges.

Yes. The people who think she's more complex in the show just seem unable to accept a female character being truly driven by the desire of power and acting on it. It's something to be cherished in male characters, but god forbid a woman shows the same attitude. They have to be turned into woobies to justify all the bad they do, which is exactly what has happened with Cersei's characterisation since season 1. In fact, I'd argue that the change in this particular scene is also in part dictated by the need to portray Cersei as a victim again, in a misguided attempt to make her more sympathetic.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

Yes. The people who think she's more complex in the show just seem unable to accept a female character being truly driven by the desire of power and acting on it. It's something to be cherished in male characters, but god forbid a woman shows the same attitude. They have to be turned into woobies to justify all the bad they do, which is exactly what has happened with Cersei's characterisation since season 1. In fact, I'd argue that the change in this particular scene is also in part dictated by the need to portray Cersei as a victim again, in a misguided attempt to make her more sympathetic.

Daenerys is the most power hungry character in the whole show, but she has the second most fans (behind the imp).

Arya is power hungry (through killing) and she also is one of the top favorites.

No one has a problem with women that want power, as long as they don't come off as a stereotypical "strong woman who need no man" that men will always see as a joke.

Though GRRM wrote some great female characters. The writers of the tv show GOT are horrible at writing characters.

[Ilúvatar]

Forced sex = rape, (made up words) galabala, ghetro, litrafix, lamafolo

Does not matter what you call it. When people use the word "rape" they are talking about forced sex, for the most part. The action of forcing someone to have sex does not change just because you're in a country where it's legal.

But not all forms of sexual assault are considered to be rape, and not every act that's considered to be rape necessarily involves sexual intercourse. It all depends on the legal definition.

And even what you call "forced sex" isn't necessarily nonconsensual. There are couples who get off on that kind of thing, even when it's spontaneous rather than pre-planned.

[Hellothere]

But not all forms of sexual assault are considered to be rape, and not every act that's considered to be rape necessarily involves sexual intercourse. It all depends on the legal definition.

And even what you call "forced sex" isn't necessarily nonconsensual. There are couples who get off on that kind of thing, even when it's spontaneous rather than pre-planned.

Again, does rape not exist unless there is a state law defining it? Is it impossible to be raped without the law?

[Ilúvatar]

Again, does rape not exist unless there is a state law defining it? Is it impossible to be raped without the law?

Nonconsensual sex still exists. But the actual act of raping someone is defined by law, and that definition varies dramatically depending on the place / time period.

[Hellothere]

Nonconsensual sex still exists. But the actual act of raping someone is defined by law, and that definition varies dramatically depending on the place / time period.

So you are arguing semantics then? Why is it important that we call it "Nonconsensual sex" as opposed to "rape"?

What difference does it make?

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

1. But not all forms of sexual assault are considered to be rape, and not every act that's considered to be rape necessarily involves sexual intercourse. It all depends on the legal definition.

2. And even what you call "forced sex" isn't necessarily nonconsensual. There are couples who get off on that kind of thing, even when it's spontaneous rather than pre-planned.

1. But not all rape is equal. There are situations where a woman or man will have sex with their sleeping partner. If they didn't talk about it to their partner beforehand, then technically they sexually assaulted their partner. But I wouldn't put them in prison for it.

2. Agreed. But most people know what I mean when I say that "rape=forced sex".

[Daske]

Jaime being horrible and generally an asshole doesn't make him a rapist as well. You can't assume that because someone does something wrong, there's nothing he wouldn't do, it's an argument that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. According to his characterisation in the show, for him to rape Cersei makes no sense. It's like developing a character, and then just turn him into an even worse person than he used to be, with no explanation or rationale.

Most of the main anti-heros of the best tv shows have characters that lull you in 'oh he or she isn't such a bad guy', then bam! they do something truly horrible you did not expect, Tony Soprano (and Silvio and Paulie), Walter White, Al Swerengen, Gaius Baltar, Dexter and so on they have all done unspeakable things after you get to know them and to a certain extent have started to root for them.

Redemption does not have to be linear, or be permanent, or even happen at all. And characters, as with real people, do not have to be consistant. The Hound can be shown as having redeeming qualities (and become a fan favourite) after murdering a child, one of whose acts afterwards includes protecting a child. And there is much sympathy for a broken Theon despite the fact he too murdered two innocent children.

Rape is obviously a special case in how people react to it compared to other horrible crimes, so it could be interesting where they take Jaime's character now. If a child murderer like The Hound can find some sort of redemption, can a rapist? I don't know if this is possible to pull this off in a mature fashion in the show, and admittedly GoT may not get it right, but let's see if there is any fallout first. I can't help but think that Jaime will end up paying for his sins (in book as well as show). I can't really see any way a rapist would be accepted as redeemed apart from maybe sacrificing themselves in some fashion. But let's see. If the show fails to address it at all, then I acquiesce - that would be very poor form.

[HairGrowsBack]

Overall the problem is not to have him do something bad again, the problem is to have him do this particular misdeed, which many believe (myself included) he would never do.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Rape is obviously a special case in how people react to it compared to other horrible crimes, so it could be interesting where they take Jaime's character now. If a child murderer like The Hound can find some sort of redemption, can a rapist? I don't know if this is possible to pull this off in a mature fashion in the show, and admittedly GoT may not get it right, but let's see if there is any fallout first. I can't help but think that Jaime will end up paying for his sins (in book as well as show). I can't really see any way a rapist would be accepted as redeemed apart from maybe sacrificing themselves in some fashion. But let's see. If the show fails to address it at all, then I acquiesce - that would be very poor form.

I suspect they will proceed in a 'business as usual' fashion given that they think they made a scene that consisted of consensual sex.

[Frey Pies]

Honestly, that scene was much more complicated than many are giving it credit for. Cersei always brings out the worst in Jaime, and that is what we saw in action here. I think it will be a low point for Jaime, and will eventually lead to Jaime resolve for changing and distancing himself from Cersei being strengthened, which I hope we see in play next few episodes.

[The Prophet of Patch]

If nothing else, this episode demonstrated how unclear what constitutes sexual assault is to some (notably some of the showrunners). Not sure how you can watch that scene and get consent from it...it's much easier for me to see the argument that the scene in the book was also nonconsensual (Cersei's protests, banging on Jaime's chest, getting Jaime's POV bias, etc.).

I think, as many have stated, that the only thing we can do is wait to see where they go with this in the next episode. I don't think we can start claiming character assassination until we see the aftermath, since this could be nothing more than an editing fuck up. If they were aiming for "dubious consent," (if that's a thing) as in the books, and just completely missed their mark, that's one thing (a shitty mistake, but a mistake nontheless); if they make it clear that they intended this to be a rape scene, that opens a whole other can of worms, and we should start discussing whether it was OOC or not (I'm not sure it was for Jaime, it very much was for Cersei).

I actually have less of a problem with this scene than the Dany/Drogo wedding night scene, as that was much more clearly consensual in the books.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Honestly, that scene was much more complicated than many are giving it credit for. Cersei always brings out the worst in Jaime, and that is what we saw in action here. I think it will be a low point for Jaime, and will eventually lead to Jaime resolve for changing and distancing himself from Cersei being strengthened, which I hope we see in play next few episodes.

Wait, wait, wait. Are you seriously trying to say this is Cersei's fault?????????????????

J/K. I completely agree. Their relationship is so toxic and Jamie is completely responsible for his actions, but I doubt there is any other woman in the Seven Kingdoms that this would have happened with.

[six]

Most of the main anti-heros of the best tv shows have characters that lull you in 'oh he or she isn't such a bad guy', then bam! they do something truly horrible you did not expect, Tony Soprano (and Silvio and Paulie), Walter White, Al Swerengen, Gaius Baltar, Dexter and so on they have all done unspeakable things after you get to know them and to a certain extent have started to root for them.

Redemption does not have to be linear, or be permanent, or even happen at all. And characters, as with real people, do not have to be consistant. The Hound can be shown as having redeeming qualities (and become a fan favourite) after murdering a child, one of whose acts afterwards includes protecting a child. And there is much sympathy for a broken Theon despite the fact he too murdered two innocent children.

Rape is obviously a special case in how people react to it compared to other horrible crimes, so it could be interesting where they take Jaime's character now. If a child murderer like The Hound can find some sort of redemption, can a rapist? I don't know if this is possible to pull this off in a mature fashion in the show, and admittedly GoT may not get it right, but let's see if there is any fallout first. I can't help but think that Jaime will end up paying for his sins (in book as well as show). I can't really see any way a rapist would be accepted as redeemed apart from maybe sacrificing themselves in some fashion. But let's see. If the show fails to address it at all, then I acquiesce - that would be very poor form.

But characters aren't real people, and in a narrative they need to follow a certain consistent pattern. If the wanted to show Jaime still has a dark side to him, which I would not deny he does, there were other more in character ways to portray it. Do you think that if he had consensual sex with his twin in front of Joff's corpse the audience would have thought what a delightful fella Jaime is? No, everyone would have thought it was gross, that Jaime/Cersei were dysfunctional and disgusting, and that there's a side of Jaime that it's revolting. Turning it into rape was completely unnecessary, and a characterisation from which is going to be very difficult to separate Jaime from. It's clunky to have a character save a woman from rape twice in one season, and have him rape another the next. I'd rather they had him kill another cousin, at least it would be something show!Jaime would have done.

I doubt they'll address it btw. We'll see I guess, but all the responses from the people involved in the show so far, don't point to this change as an actual plot point, but more as an oh-so-edgy choice.

Daenerys is the most power hungry character in the whole show, but she has the second most fans (behind the imp).

Arya is power hungry (through killing) and she also is one of the top favorites.

No one has a problem with women that want power, as long as they don't come off as a stereotypical "strong woman who need no man" that men will always see as a joke.

Though GRRM wrote some great female characters. The writers of the tv show GOT are horrible at writing characters.

In the show? Arya isn't power hungry, and Dany is more complex than that.

Cersei has been stripped of all agency and is very passive in the show. In the books she's restlessly chasing power, she's very manipulative and a very dynamic and tragic character. I hate that they're turning her into just a victim. One of the most interesting sides of her in the books is that she is indeed a victim, but she's also an abuser. They're doing the character such a disservice.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

Yes. The people who think she's more complex in the show just seem unable to accept a female character being truly driven by the desire of power and acting on it. It's something to be cherished in male characters, but god forbid a woman shows the same attitude. They have to be turned into woobies to justify all the bad they do, which is exactly what has happened with Cersei's characterisation since season 1. In fact, I'd argue that the change in this particular scene is also in part dictated by the need to portray Cersei as a victim again, in a misguided attempt to make her more sympathetic.

Agreed. This has been a constant problem with female characters on the show. GRRM wrote these amazing, powerful characters that drive their own stories and the show-runners seem to take issue with it and take it away at every step. From the beginning, when they had Ned being the one deciding to become Hand rather than Catelyn strongly encourage him. Instead in the show, she whines and wants him to tell Robert no; to Arya's escape from Harrenhall being orchestrated by Jaqen, rather than Arya herself (same can be said about Sansa's lack of participation in her escape on the show - again being given to men). It goes on and on and on with pretty much every female character on the show, except Dany whose pedestal is so high the fall is going to be rough. I don't know - it makes me feel like D&D really need to take some time to truly evaluate how they feel about women deep inside. The good thing is that GRRM's source material is so strong that even stripped down - we still have some of the most amazing female television characters in existence, but it is annoying that they could have been even better.

[edditnyc]

Cersei has been stripped of all agency and is very passive in the show. In the books she's restlessly chasing power, she's very manipulative and a very dynamic and tragic character. I hate that they're turning her into just a victim. One of the most interesting sides of her in the books is that she is indeed a victim, but she's also an abuser. They're doing the character such a disservice.

No, Tywin is ruling so she doesn't dare cross him. Wait till next season, I fully expect Cesei to step it way up. I'm actually pretty excited about it. I know Lena will crush it too.