MsLibby Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 It is in the closed thread. There are like...60 pages in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lidsa Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I know I'm late to the discussion, but was this scene a misguided attempt to foreshadow Jaime joining the Night's Watch at some point? Having the line "Rapist, rapist, rapist, 9th son, rapist....." in a Night's Watch scene and Jaime raping in the same episode felt like it was supposed to be connected.(There's also that Jaime/Jon conversation in S01E02). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MsLibby Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Are you referring to the fake satirical script that King Tommen posted, MsLibby? If not then link me Ran saying that. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107950-why-do-they-treat-jaime-that-way/page-49 And to quote Ran So it seems to indicate an attempt at directing a give-and-take scene in which consent is being given, then withheld, then given -- it's a back and forth, basically. Which is pretty much how Jaime and Cersei do things in the novels -- I said there were two scenes where Cersei starts off protesting, but in fact there's three. In my mind, that puts all this right on the shoulders of Graves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konradsmith Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 ^Thanks for the link. Surely Jaime and Cersei interactions next episode will clarify what happened. Even if they don't mention IT explicitly, their body language and the dynamic between them will be very telling. My initial point before I went off a little was that next episode is not only Jaime-heavy, but redemption-heavy. Character development and self-improvement aren't a one way street. He improved on the road with Brienne, had a sort of relapse (which you could say in addict terms was his "bottom"), and now will move ahead with his more "knightly" behaviour. This will manifest itself in his helping of Brienne, Pod and Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rill Redthorn Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 If this backlash means that Alex Graves won't come back to the show I'll blame you guys. I'm not alone in thinking that he's the best director that the show has ever had and some of you have come quite close to defaming him. As for my gender studies comment I'm talking about the stringency that some of you think he should have to have when discussing a scene he directed. Not everyone knows what words and phrases have been blacklisted by bloggers and academia. Ooh, if Alex Graves isn't invited back to GoT next year, an anonymous poster on a message board is going to be upset! Clearly this should terrify all of us into shutting up about the issue. Graves is by far not the best director the show has ever had; he's a passable workman at best. And even if he was a brilliant director, that doesn't mean he's not a scumbag. Case in point: Roman Polanski. (And probably Woody Allen too.) "Defamation" is what you do when you lie about someone. "Disapproval" is what's happening to Graves here. And I'm sure he can take it. Neither bloggers nor academia have the power to "blacklist" anything. ^Well, we don't know it was a fuck-up yet because the season isn't over yet. I guess how Jaime and Cersei act around each next episode will determine what it's effect was on the story. As for what we consider hot-button issues and what we don't, the show portrays many different horrible things and never with this kind of fiery, politicised response. I hope that child-murder and wartime slaughter concern people, but none seem to elicit the same fervor as the "r" word. No one argues about whether those other things are wrong. Any time that fiction touches on a present-day issue of debate, like the definition of rape (or racism or income inequality or what-have-you) it stirs up energetic discussion, which is one of the principle purposes of fiction and the main thing that makes it valuable to society. Without this, fiction would be a dull thing without power. But oh, I forget, you're the kind of person who thinks that people who don't agree with him ought to just be quiet, because it's just too damn much effort for you to scroll past discussions you're not interested in. :bs: :bs: :bs: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveyJoe Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Graves has all ready said he's taking a year off GoT because it keeps him away from his family. I've really enjoyed all four of his episodes and I'm looking forward to his remaining two episodes this year. There's no way he loses his job over some concentrated internet backlash. Don't forget that the Showrunners wrote that scene and I'm sure they watched the episode in its entirety before it aired. They're not going to serve up a director as a sacrificial lamb especially considering their comments on the scene in the Inside the Episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konradsmith Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Pressure from online activist types and lobbying groups can actually lose people their jobs unfairly. It happens a helluva lot. As for your simplistic inaccurate characterization of me, Rill Redthorn, you know what you can do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveyJoe Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 The proof is in the product and 3.4, 3.5, 4.2, and 4.3 are really good episodes. D&D liked Graves so much they gave him 4 episodes in one season after working with him for just a year. This "controversy" is just giving the show more publicity. I don't see the show being negatively affected by it. Just another case of purists who are prone to getting pissed off by the show acting indignant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konradsmith Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 ^And 410 will in all likelihood be the best episode of the entire show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Rape is forced or coerced sex. To paraphrase another poster from the locked thread, "it seems to me a dangerous place that when I say “no” and a man still undresses me, puts his hand between my legs, even if I continue punching him in the chest as a sign of rejection, and he doesn’t once “hear it” or even consider it as him starting to rape me, because he thinks I would eventually agree." It's sexual assault. I still feel that you are taking things out of context and ignoring what we know about their relationship. (I'm talking about the books here). Are you saying that Cersei will allow herself to be "forced" into sex by Jaime? Are you really saying she has no power to stop Jaime doing something she doesn't want? That's BS. If you think so, then we have interpreted their characters and their relationship completely differently. Do you ever consider that it's a routine for Jaime/Cersei's relationship for them to have risky sex - that Cersei would say "no", and Jaime would continue seducing her, and Cersei would agree afterwards because that's how they've always been? That's the type of sex they've agreed on? The rules of consent differ from the norm when we deal with this particular relationship. Have you considered that maybe - just maybe, Jaime doesn't stop undressing Cersei not because he thinks she'll agree, but because he knows she'll agree, because they've had this type of sex for 20+ years and this is just part of their power-play routine that Cersei enjoys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MsLibby Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 This has gone way beyond just the internet. It's been in a lot of the newspapers, been on TV. Heck...wasn't it even discussed on the Today show? Rape is a subject that is very personal to a lot of us. it's not something that a simple "redemption ark" can overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konradsmith Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 ^Murder and war are very personal to a lot of us too. The same goes for dismemberment and many of the other horrors that GoT depicts. Regardless though, the show is free to depict these things and we should try to be less sensitive about them. Many of the false narratives about art "normalizing" certain things is censorship through the back door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rill Redthorn Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Pressure from online activist types and lobbying groups can actually lose people their jobs unfairly. It happens a helluva lot. As for your simplistic inaccurate characterization of me, Rill Redthorn, you know what you can do with it. "A helluva lot"? BS. If you lose your job over Internet activity, it was already dangling by a thread to begin with and you just gave the higher-ups the excuse they needed to boot you. And I repeat: Graves' (arguable) quality as a director does not mean he's not a scumbag. Scumbags do extremely well in Hollywood; I know, I worked there. It won't hurt his career at all. (And I know what I can do with everything having to do with you -- it's called the circular file.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iknownothingjonsnow Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Graves is by far not the best director the show has ever had; he's a passable workman at best. It's hard to be objectively wrong when offering a subjective opinion, but you've managed to pull it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7th-key Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 My mind wandered to a passage from HST:s Hells Angels: Why wasn't it problematic for Sansa being "almost raped" in the riot? Or Brienne? And on to a different, but to me equally disturbing trend, why isn't anyone upset by Ramsay hunting a girl with dogs? Is it OK because he had a female side-kick? Because everyone agrees that those actions are wrong and Sansa's almost rapers and Ramsay are scumbags. Jaime's TV-rape of Cersei, depending on how it will be handled, could even go though various levels sympathy for the act (example: Cersei deserved it or wanted it on some levels) or for the person doing it (example:is just part of Jaime personal growth). And that's wrong. It's Jaime and Cersei, brother and sister. They fucked next to a drunk Robert, probably in his own bed. They don't care for morals nor others' feelings. I'm sure it's not the first time they have done anything like it. To each their own, every couple knows how they work in bed. Or in their son's graves. Why would they care about Robert's feelings? - He's the one who whored around. Same for Joffrey's feelings: he is dead. The reason one should respect the dead is to respect the feelings of the living. The only person who mourned Joffrey was Cersey, and (at lest in the book) she didn't mind having sex there that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalseKnight Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 About Cersei's resisting, Jaime says she was feebly punching his chest. Yeah, it can be said that it was Jaime's biased POV and so on. But really, he was missing his right hand, with his left he could hardly do anything, even taking a piss was a big problem for him. If Cersei was actually seriously resisting, would it really be hard for her to get free from him? He lifted her on the altar. How he would have done it with just his left hand, if Cersei was seriously resisting? What would you require her to do to express her nonconsent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rill Redthorn Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 It's hard to be objectively wrong when offering a subjective opinion, but you've managed to pull it off. Okay, what do you base this on? Name several ways in which Graves is an above-par director, please. Blocking? No. Actor direction? No. Cinematographic brilliance? No. What are you basing your "Alex Graves is Oh-so-great!" opinion on? In what aspect is his directing so much more stellar than that of other directors on the show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konradsmith Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I just don't see how the book's James Bond style "no, no, yes" scene would be preferable to what aired. If anything that sort of scene sends a worse message. But still, this sort of poo-pooing and fretting over what message art and entertainment sends is what pissed me off enough to comment on this thread in the first place. For the sake of not devolving into personal attacks or a useless back and forth with the above poster, I will take my leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florina Laufeyson Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Even if there was a 'yes' in there somewhere, the scene was squicky enough to drudge up discussion. Cuz lots of people, including me, were trying to wash that nasty image out of their minds when we read about it in the book. Ewwwww Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samsaptakas Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Jaime, the only heroic character in the book, rape someone in show; well, I can say now that D&D knows nothing about these books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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