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Starspear

Anyone else thinks that ADWD goes too far with Ramsay Snow?

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There's a limit that I can accept in fantasy (or perhaps depravity is the better word).



A thread for those who feel the same.

Edited by Starspear

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At first I felt that way too, but I think a lot of that rests on what his ultimate significance is to the plot moving forward. If his barbaric behavior is pure sensationalism to get a rise out of us as readers then yes. If he's being set up to evolve into a big bad in the coming books then no.


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I see what you mean.



However, it was bad enough to hear his abuse of Theon, and via Theon, all the others he abused.



But with Jeyne Poole, for me, that was too much.



As you say, right now it is starting to feel that his barbaric behavior is pure sensationalism.


If there's a set-up that justifies the revelations, then we'll see... but right now, not leaning that way.


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There's a crackpot theory going around that Ramsey is somehow related to Craster and the White Walkers through his wildling roots. It's built around the fact that Roose hasn't done anything to curb Ramsey's behavior even when he murder's Roose's trueborn heir. This in a world where bastards are routinely cast aside and brutally discarded for no reason at all. Could fear be driving the generally pragmatic Bolton's unbelievably permissive attitude? Is there a Faustian bargain yet to be unveiled in the coming novel? Honestly I hope so because otherwise Martin is just making his writing seem cheap and distasteful like Medieval Saw style horror porn.


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There's a crackpot theory going around that Ramsey is somehow related to Craster and the White Walkers through his wildling roots. It's built around the fact that Roose hasn't done anything to curb Ramsey's behavior even when he murder's Roose's trueborn heir. This in a world where bastards are routinely cast aside and brutally discarded for no reason at all. Could fear be driving the generally pragmatic Bolton's unbelievably permissive attitude? Is there a Faustian bargain yet to be unveiled in the coming novel? Honestly I hope so because otherwise Martin is just making his writing seem cheap and distasteful like Medieval Saw style horror porn.

Exactly and exactly! I hope there is... because, we're spending way too much time in the presence of pure evil...

look into the abyss too long (as the saying goes...)

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ADWD and Feast went too far in a number of respects. All of the Ironborn are cartoonshly or LotRy calling out the numbers of North Men they are killing. Victorian is some crazy guy out of legend. Okay, I didn't mind this in LotR, it just made sense in that series where there were huge heroes and huge evil, it makes no sense in this series though and seemed ridiculous, I actually scoffed, I think that's the right term.



Ramsay is a very, very dark villain and slightly unrealistic, I mean, nobody did anything about him yet? One trip to Braavos by a distraught brother and he is toast, but whatever. Women are treated like dirt all over the real world every day, every war carries rape and pillaging along with it like we are still just fucking barbarians, but it's human nature. Ramsay is perhaps a bit over the top, but GRRM likes to give us the odd black hat to draw our ire and he is one of them. However, I hope he lives long enough for Arya to sick his dogs on him.


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Well, Ramsay is a consequence.



The Northerns needed to see "Arya Stark" suffering.


"Arya" needed to be wed to someone and Roose was already married.


That someone was Roose's only son.


Roose's only son, Ramsay, was a known torturer.


Theon was tortured so he would be reduced to "reek", and taken off the main game in the meantime while the Boltons gain the Stark's approval and trust.



There is no way Ramsay would be the soulless s.o.b. we are told about and suddenly, all gentle about Jeyne Pool. He's meant to be a despicable human being to everybody else.

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Well, Ramsay is a consequence.

The Northerns needed to see "Arya Stark" suffering.

"Arya" needed to be wed to someone and Roose was already married.

That someone was Roose's only son.

Roose's only son, Ramsay, was a known torturer.

Theon was tortured so he would be reduced to "reek", and taken off the main game in the meantime while the Boltons gain the Stark's approval and trust.

There is no way Ramsay would be the soulless s.o.b. we are told about and suddenly, all gentle about Jeyne Pool. He's meant to be a despicable human being to everybody else.

Yes, but I don't think we need the bestiality angle, which is one of the things I think this thread is about.

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Well, Ramsay is a consequence.

The Northerns needed to see "Arya Stark" suffering.

"Arya" needed to be wed to someone and Roose was already married.

That someone was Roose's only son.

Roose's only son, Ramsay, was a known torturer.

Theon was tortured so he would be reduced to "reek", and taken off the main game in the meantime while the Boltons gain the Stark's approval and trust.

There is no way Ramsay would be the soulless s.o.b. we are told about and suddenly, all gentle about Jeyne Pool. He's meant to be a despicable human being to everybody else.

Yes. No argument about changing his character. However, the level of depravity that is shared crosses sound judgement and moves into the deplorable. Many things were already implied and understood. Whitering understands.

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ADWD and Feast went too far in a number of respects. All of the Ironborn are cartoonshly or LotRy calling out the numbers of North Men they are killing. Victorian is some crazy guy out of legend. Okay, I didn't mind this in LotR, it just made sense in that series where there were huge heroes and huge evil, it makes no sense in this series though and seemed ridiculous, I actually scoffed, I think that's the right term.

Ramsay is a very, very dark villain and slightly unrealistic, I mean, nobody did anything about him yet? One trip to Braavos by a distraught brother and he is toast, but whatever. Women are treated like dirt all over the real world every day, every war carries rape and pillaging along with it like we are still just fucking barbarians, but it's human nature. Ramsay is perhaps a bit over the top, but GRRM likes to give us the odd black hat to draw our ire and he is one of them. However, I hope he lives long enough for Arya to sick his dogs on him.

Agreed. Page count-wise, I could do with less. Ramsay was sick and understood to be sick from the very first moment. Seeing the varieties of his evils... what's the point?

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Yes, but I don't think we need the bestiality angle, which is one of the things I think this thread is about.

Did Ramsey commit some bestiality that I missed? Maybe it got shuffled in with all the other things he's done but I don't remember him having sex with animals

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Shortspear Rick - let's try to keep thread euphemistic if that's agreeable. Maybe you can slightly edit your last to be a little less direct (I'd appreciate if that's cool with you). But yes, you missed something. Mind you, might be better that way.



Focus of thread is on Ramsay Snow's atrocities as a whole. All of them. Overkill - though there might be a better word.


Edited by Starspear

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Shortspear Rick - let's try to keep thread euphemistic if that's agreeable. Maybe you can slightly edit your last to be a little less direct (I'd appreciate if that's cool with you). But yes, you missed something. Mind you, might be better that way.

Focus of thread is on Ramsay Snow's atrocities as a whole. All of them. Overkill - though there might be a better word.

Dude, the books aren't exactly euphemistic so there's no reason to be all coy or childish about it. In fact, Martin goes into such explicit detail that my question seems tame in comparison. What exactly did I miss concerning bestiality?

As far as Ramsey being such a despicable character, umm, that's sort of the point. Even some of the most vile characters in the books have some redeeming qualities or perhaps some sort of justification. With Ramsey, there's nothing good about him and the reader is given no reason to sympathize with him. Why Martin has decided to go that route, we'll have to see, whether its satisfaction when he dies or disappointment and disgust when he triumphs. Honestly though, nothing he does seems completely out of place in the depraved world of ASOIAF. Much of what he does is committed by other people as well: flaying, murder, psychological torture. He just happens to be a bit more brazen about it.

The people of the North weren't exactly going to let him get away with it either, as they had killed Reek thinking it was Ramsey. He only gets away with it now because of his already influential father's rise in political power. To me, that's what Ramsey exemplifies, what happens when the actions of a person go unchecked due to fear of consequences resulting from taking action against a member of a wealthy or powerful family.

To answer the question posed by the thread title, no I don't think ADWD goes too far. In addition to showing the utter depravity of Ramsey it helps to not only solidify the notion that Theon could be turned into Reek 2.0 but gives some sort of insight into why Ramsey would do such a thing, i.e.- he's a fucked up guy who obviously sees other humans as playthings and he knows Daddy isn't going to do anything about it worse than a scolding.

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I might take offense if we had page after page of gratuitous descriptions of the nasty things he does,but we don't.If described at all it's mostly in brief flashback.I had the misfortune to read American Psycho when I was much younger and,believe me,nothing in these novels come close to that.

 

 

He's a baddie who does bad things.

 

 

 

 

Edited by redriver

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