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rocksniffer

(beware spoilers) Tywin is the new kingslayer?

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i am curious if anyone else is wondering if Tywin was the killer of Joffrey...after all he was aware of Joff's tendencies and knew he was not cut out to be king...could he have been the mastermind behind the poisoning...his position was in jeopardy (remember last season when he and the king had words in front of the throne...) if Joff decided to put him aside for someone else...gramps might have decided to move on to a more easily manipulated grandson...just this old asshole's thoughts feel free to disagree... :smoking:




...discuss


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I think the episode heavily suggested this: Tywin demonstrating a certain understanding with Olenna, then Tywin's speech to Tommen, Margaery seems to have been unaware of the poisoning plan, finally Tyrion's suspicion verbalizing the viewers' thoughts........

We saw two sides of Tywin: the kindly educating grandfather and the one who acts if education does not take roots. Joffrey did not grasp what it means to be king and Tyrion still had emotions and semtimentalities left. Both failures who do no longer forward the Lannister case, if of a different kind.

So they received Tywin's personal kind of wisdom.

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I agree that the show somehow hints it a lot.


In the show he has been shown several times making plans and interacting with Olenna. And in addition to the Tommen speech and Tyrion's comments I would also add the encounter with Oberyn. He overall seems extremly aware of what is going on and who to blame and who not.


The only thing I'm really not sure about is if they wanna distract from the actual reveal or if they really want to hint that there has been something going on beyond what most think from the book version.


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i also noted upon rewatch that Tywin was standing in the same general direction Joff pointed in...



...i have suspected that he would have preferred Tommen, who not only is more pliable, being younger and of course not insane like Joff, but also i feel that Tywin was concerned after the marriage etc, Joff would refuse to continue Tywin as Hand,



...in addition after casting Jamie aside, and killing Joff, Tommen would not only be king but an acceptable heir to the Rock...Tywin has repeatedly emphasized his concern above all with the family and the name continuing, who better to put as Lord of Casterly Rock that a son of Tommen's who had been properly raised by Tywin and not controlled/ruined by Cersei...i noted how he completely ignored her like she was not there, during his 'what makes a king' speech over Joff's dead body... :smoking:


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I've always been unsure about whether he was responsible or not, but the show does hint at his possible involvement quite strongly. Also, whereas Tommen in the book is younger and a lot weaker, show Tommen is still a fairly nice, innocent kid, but he's at least a bit older than book Tommen to the point where Tywin would perhaps be happier with him as king.


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My biggest issue with Tywin being involved is that he always puts family first. It's the one redeeming quality of his character. He hates and loathes Tyrion, but he wasn't about to kill him. Humiliate him? Sure, but kinslaying? I don't think Tywin can kinslay. I could be wrong. I'm sure lots of people disagree with me.


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I could definitely see Tywin wanting Joffrey dead, for the sake of the family as well as the realm; the kid was a loose cannon with demonstrable viciousness and no little self-control, and in just a few years, he would reach his majority and no one would be safe from his whims, including his own mother and Tywin himself. But I don't see any hints in either the book or the show that Tywin actually did anything other than wish Joffrey dead; I don't think he was ready to act on his disgust with his grandson.


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My biggest issue with Tywin being involved is that he always puts family first. It's the one redeeming quality of his character. He hates and loathes Tyrion, but he wasn't about to kill him. Humiliate him? Sure, but kinslaying? I don't think Tywin can kinslay. I could be wrong. I'm sure lots of people disagree with me.

Keep in mind the books may eventually change our views on Tywin. If his funeral stench proved anything it was that he was corrupt to the core.

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My biggest issue with Tywin being involved is that he always puts family first. It's the one redeeming quality of his character. He hates and loathes Tyrion, but he wasn't about to kill him. Humiliate him? Sure, but kinslaying? I don't think Tywin can kinslay. I could be wrong. I'm sure lots of people disagree with me.

i honestly think that Tywin would sacrifice Tyrion to keep him from becoming heir to the Rock. He needs a Lord for Casterly Rock, the family is nothing to him without his holdfast and the wealth it brings, he told Jamie during E01 scene that he didn't expect to see the Rock again, alive...since Jamie is barred by being in the king's guard (and by choice) and Tywin has already refused Tyrion and Cercei, then Joff and Tommen are the only 'pure-bloods' he has left...and i think we have already had plenty of evidence that he wasn't happy Joff was it by default.

No, the more i watch and think of the things he has said...back to his first scene's cleaning the deer in season one, i am more convinced that he could and would not hesitate to kill a king, or a family member, to secure what he wants...

...just more opinions from a salty old fart.... :smoking:

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I could definitely see Tywin wanting Joffrey dead, for the sake of the family as well as the realm; the kid was a loose cannon with demonstrable viciousness and no little self-control, and in just a few years, he would reach his majority and no one would be safe from his whims, including his own mother and Tywin himself. But I don't see any hints in either the book or the show that Tywin actually did anything other than wish Joffrey dead; I don't think he was ready to act on his disgust with his grandson.

:agree:

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I could definitely see Tywin wanting Joffrey dead, for the sake of the family as well as the realm; the kid was a loose cannon with demonstrable viciousness and no little self-control, and in just a few years, he would reach his majority and no one would be safe from his whims, including his own mother and Tywin himself. But I don't see any hints in either the book or the show that Tywin actually did anything other than wish Joffrey dead; I don't think he was ready to act on his disgust with his grandson.

But would he stand in the way if someone else was going to do it?

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gramps might have decided to move on to a more easily manipulated grandson...

Though Tommen isn't just easier for Tywin to manipulate but also Margery, and even Cersei. Having him be King doesn't really make Tywin's position all that secure.

...in addition after casting Jamie aside, and killing Joff, Tommen would not only be king but an acceptable heir to the Rock...

The King doesn't seem to inherit the families traditional holding. Robert was no longer Lord of Storm's End after he became King and Stannis seems to have believed that Storm's End was his by right. This suggests that Tommen would already be a potential heir to the Rock, perhaps only behind Tyrion in terms of legitimate succession. That of course is a strong motive for Tywin to dispose of Tyrion; having Joff proclaim his brother legitimate heir (to the Rock) whilst still pliable and then have Tommen spirited away to be raised by Kevan. It also means that eliminating Joff is irrelevant.

who better to put as Lord of Casterly Rock that a son of Tommen's who had been properly raised by Tywin and not controlled/ruined by Cersei

Tommen's what, twelve, eight? There's no way in hell Tywin lives long enough to raise his great-grandson to maturity. In the mean time Tyrion will have fathered children, presumably, who will have a stronger claim to the Rock. And while Tywin doesn't like Tyrion much he seems perfectly willing to his his children.

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My biggest issue with Tywin being involved is that he always puts family first. It's the one redeeming quality of his character. He hates and loathes Tyrion, but he wasn't about to kill him. Humiliate him? Sure, but kinslaying? I don't think Tywin can kinslay. I could be wrong. I'm sure lots of people disagree with me.

He puts the Lannister house first. He doesn't care about any of its members on a personal level, except Jaime to some degree. Joffrey was becoming a detriment so he probably saw his death as a good thing.

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He puts the Lannister house first. He doesn't care about any of its members on a personal level, except Jaime to some degree. Joffrey was becoming a detriment so he probably saw his death as a good thing.

Based on my understanding of his character, Tywin would never allow another House to take advantage of his own in such a manner. You are right that he puts Lannisters first over everything, even the actual members of the family, but that's just the reason why he would not just allow Olenna or Margaery or anyone else to just kill his grandson like that.

Tywin seethes with open revulsion and loathing at Tyrion, to the point where he seems to tacitly blame Tyrion for the death of his own mother. He considers Tyrion inheriting the Rock to mean the destruction of House Lannister. He even wishes that he could somehow prove that Tyrion isn't really his son.

But when Tyrion was taken by Catelyn, Tywin didn't just sit on his hands and say, "well, maybe he might get killed and I can be free of him," He called his banners and set the Riverlands ablaze.

That's what Tywin does for family members that he clearly hates. I can't imagine that he would sit back and allow the Tyrells or anyone else to just pick off other members of his family whenever it pleases them. If Tywin decided that Joffrey had to die, Tywin would have done it himself.

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I could only imagine that he'd rage even more, if he knew that Olenna was not only behind Joff's death but that she had framed his son and kidnapped his daughter in law. I think that Tywin is subtle enough that if he wanted to kill Joff,it would have been in a different manner. Killing Joff at his own wedding is simply embarrassing.


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“The boy is thirteen. There is time yet.” Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him, he was more upset than he wished to show. “He requires a sharp lesson.”



Now I'm looking at this quote in a completely different light. First of all he's pissed as fuck, he says Joff needs a sharp lesson (and we know the kind of sharp lessons Tywin gives, like the one he taught the Reynes and Tarbecks), and "there is time yet" is wonderfully ambiguous: it could mean, "there's still time to kill this fucker before he grows up and rules on his own"



So, yeah, I don't think the show going there, but I wouldn't be surprised if it happened


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Based on my understanding of his character, Tywin would never allow another House to take advantage of his own in such a manner. You are right that he puts Lannisters first over everything, even the actual members of the family, but that's just the reason why he would not just allow Olenna or Margaery or anyone else to just kill his grandson like that.

Tywin seethes with open revulsion and loathing at Tyrion, to the point where he seems to tacitly blame Tyrion for the death of his own mother. He considers Tyrion inheriting the Rock to mean the destruction of House Lannister. He even wishes that he could somehow prove that Tyrion isn't really his son.

But when Tyrion was taken by Catelyn, Tywin didn't just sit on his hands and say, "well, maybe he might get killed and I can be free of him," He called his banners and set the Riverlands ablaze.

That's what Tywin does for family members that he clearly hates. I can't imagine that he would sit back and allow the Tyrells or anyone else to just pick off other members of his family whenever it pleases them. If Tywin decided that Joffrey had to die, Tywin would have done it himself.

I agree with you. I wasn't insinuating that Tywin knew about the assassination, only that it turned out to be a blessing in disguise for him.

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Have to agree that I do not believe Tywin knew it was going to happen, but that he isn't too upset that it did. He knows the Lannister family will be better off without Joffery around, and we know all that Tywin cares about is the legacy of Lannisters

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There was really no indication that Tywin ever felt threatened or not in control of Joffrey where he would want to kill him. Remember last season finale when Tywin sent Joff off to bed and told Tyrion, "you're a fool if you think a crown makes him (Joffrey) the most powerful man in Westeros." There was also the scene where Joffrey called Tywin to counsel him on the dragons, he clearly had Joffrey intimidated. Joff or Tommen, Tywin knew he was in control and would continue to be.



My question is why, on the show, would the Tyrells would want Joffrey dead? Margeary clearly had her own control over Joffrey. He wasn't hurting her and she could persuade him to do the things she wanted. I think the show screwed that storyline up.


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There was really no indication that Tywin ever felt threatened or not in control of Joffrey where he would want to kill him. Remember last season finale when Tywin sent Joff off to bed and told Tyrion, "you're a fool if you think a crown makes him (Joffrey) the most powerful man in Westeros." There was also the scene where Joffrey called Tywin to counsel him on the dragons, he clearly had Joffrey intimidated. Joff or Tommen, Tywin knew he was in control and would continue to be.

My question is why, on the show, would the Tyrells would want Joffrey dead? Margeary clearly had her own control over Joffrey. He wasn't hurting her and she could persuade him to do the things she wanted. I think the show screwed that storyline up.

They were in control of Joffrey? You think he kills Ros, makes a scene at Tyrion's wedding, makes fun of Renly, Loras, Tyrion at his own wedding if he was under control?

They might be able to control him a little bit while he's young, but once he gets older he'll become a much bigger problem.

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