Is Ned's mother a commoner?

[Waylin Stark]

A Lord of a Major House would never marry a commoner.

Besides, had she been a commoner, we most definitely would have heard of it.

I doubt it's of importance in terms of inheritance and all, but it is really suspicious of GRRM to not even name the mother of a major POV and the grandmother of 4 other POVs.

I think she belonged to a minor or a mid level House that died out in name. Rickard probably married her out of love or because she was the only eligible bride of the right age or something.

What if in a twist it's revealed she was a Dayne or a Hightower or a Redwyne or something??

Or even worse, a Bolton??? :eek:

[Valerius]

My guess is that Ned's maternal grandfather is House Hornwood, making Ned's mother also from House Hornwood, based on this Wiki:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Flint_of_the_mountains

• The Flints are reported to have ties to House Hornwood through the female line, though the text does not specify which branch.

The Hornwoods are a major house. I'm surprised they'd agree to marry into the Flints of the Mountains, who don't even have proper lords. They have chiefs, making them not much better than wildlings.

Also, note the Flints claim ties to Hornwood through the FEMALE line.

See my theory above^

[Valerius]

Does anyone know the lineage of the late Lady Hornwood, the one Ramsay married and starved to death?

[TheCrannogDweller]

Does anyone know the lineage of the late Lady Hornwood, the one Ramsay married and starved to death?

She was a Manderly by birth, but her mother is not mentioned.

Edit: She won't have a claim to Hornwood herself though, so the Flints' female-line connection to the Hornwoods probably comes through a female member of House Hornwood marrying into the Clan (or WW, or FF).

[Lord Damian]

I do not know who Ned's mother was. I do think that Neds paternal grandmother was a Targ Princess. Aegon V (egg's) youngest daughter I think.

[Free Northman Reborn]

If we look at the generation of Great Lords from Rickard's era:

We know who Jon Arryn was married to,

We know who Hoster Tully was married to,

We know who both Tywin Lannister and his father were married to,

We know who Lord Steffon Baratheon was married to,

We know who Mace Tyrell's father was married to (Lady Olenna),

We know who Aerys Tararyen was married to,

We even know who Balon Greyjoy was married to.

I'm not familiar with the Martell's history, but they are also very recent arrivals in the plot, with the Dorne arc only really being introduced in Feast for Crows.

So in essence, we know who the wives were of 7 of the other 8 Great Lords in Westeros.

Why on earth would Martin not reveal the wife of Rickard Stark - from the House that we know best of all, and from which our protagonists originate?

Clearly it is not a mere insignificant oversight. It was left hidden for a purpose.

[Lord Damian]

If we look at the generation of Great Lords from Rickard's era:

We know who Jon Arryn was married to,

We know who Hoster Tully was married to,

We know who both Tywin Lannister and his father were married to,

We know who Lord Steffon Baratheon was married to,

We know who Mace Tyrell's father was married to (Lady Olenna),

We know who Aerys Tararyen was married to,

We even know who Balon Greyjoy was married to.

I'm not familiar with the Martell's history, but they are also very recent arrivals in the plot, with the Dorne arc only really being introduced in Feast for Crows.

So in essence, we know who the wives were of 7 of the other 8 Great Lords in Westeros.

Why on earth would Martin not reveal the wife of Rickard Stark - from the House that we know best of all, and from which our protagonists originate?

Clearly it is not a mere insignificant oversight. It was left hidden for a purpose.

Right you are, Ned conceded to Cersei when she asked why he did not take the throne, "Robert had the better CLAIM", Ned Stark

[Free Northman Reborn]

Right you are, Ned conceded to Cersei when she asked why he did not take the throne, "Robert had the better CLAIM", Ned Stark

That's not the reason. Since Ned's mother's identity cannot have any Targaryen connection, given that she was a daughter from House Flint. House Flint isn't going to set up a match with a Targaryen prince.

[TheCrannogDweller]

We know who both Tywin Lannister and his father were married to,

No, we don't. Tywin's mother is still unknown.

[Free Northman Reborn]

No, we don't. Tywin's mother is still unknown.

Sorry, I was referring to the consort that his father set up in his mother's place. You're right, although Tywin refers to his mother, he doesn't name her House.

But then, I would argue that Tywin Lannister is from the same generation as Rickard Stark. Tywin's father's wife would be the equivalent to Rickard's mother's generation. So Joanna Lannister is the equivalent to Ned's mother.

[Valerius]

She was a Manderly by birth, but her mother is not mentioned.

Edit: She won't have a claim to Hornwood herself though, so the Flints' female-line connection to the Hornwoods probably comes through a female member of House Hornwood marrying into the Clan (or WW, or FF).

Hmmm. So are you saying that that disproves my theory?

[TheCrannogDweller]

Sorry, I was referring to the consort that his father set up in his mother's place. You're right, although Tywin refers to his mother, he doesn't name her House.

But then, I would argue that Tywin Lannister is from the same generation as Rickard Stark. Tywin's father's wife would be the equivalent to Rickard's mother's generation. So Joanna Lannister is the equivalent to Ned's mother.

I see what you mean, yes.

Hmmm. So are you saying that that disproves my theory?

I'm not saying that, I was just answering your question and speculating on the Flint female claim to Hornwood.

I'm not saying that Ned's maternal grandfather couldn't have been a Hornwood, but I am saying that the Flint's female clain cannot come from him. In order for the Flints to have that claim, a woman from House Hornwood would have to marry into House Flint, not the other way around.

Edit: Also, if the Starks had such a recent relation to House Hornwood, why wasn't it mentioned when the claims to Hornwood were discussed?

[Free Northman Reborn]

The question that can eliminate a lot of possibilities is - how many of the current Northern lords would be great-uncles of Jon, Robb and the other kids if their sister was Rickard's wife?

For example, if she was from House Mormont, then she was likely Jeor Mormont's sister, making him Jon's great-uncle. Since that is never even raised in their interactions, she clearly wasn't from House Mormont.

Same with Rickard Karstark. If she was his sister, then it would have been mentioned that Robb was killing his great-uncle when he beheaded Rickard.

Same with Wyman Manderly's relationship to the Starks. And the list goes on.

If any of the older generation lords that currently rule major Houses in the North had a sister that married Rickard, then they would be close kin to the current generation of Stark kids. And this would have come up in conversations by now.

If you go through the list you will find that most of the Northern Houses are eliminated by analyzing them in this fashion, leaving only a couple of Houses as realistic possibilities.

[Valerius]

I see what you mean, yes.

I'm not saying that, I was just answering your question and speculating on the Flint female claim to Hornwood.

I'm not saying that Ned's maternal grandfather couldn't have been a Hornwood, but I am saying that the Flint's female clain cannot come from him. In order for the Flints to have that claim, a woman from House Hornwood would have to marry into House Flint, not the other way around.

Edit: Also, if the Starks had such a recent relation to House Hornwood, why wasn't it mentioned when the claims to Hornwood were discussed?

Are you certain that when referencing "The Female Line", its actually referring to the Hornwood's female line, rather than the Flint's female line? I'm inclined to believe its the later.

[Valerius]

The question that can eliminate a lot of possibilities is - how many of the current Northern lords would be great-uncles of Jon, Robb and the other kids if their sister was Rickard's wife?

For example, if she was from House Mormont, then she was likely Jeor Mormont's sister, making him Jon's great-uncle. Since that is never even raised in their interactions, she clearly wasn't from House Mormont.

Same with Rickard Karstark. If she was his sister, then it would have been mentioned that Robb was killing his great-uncle when he beheaded Rickard.

Same with Wyman Manderly's relationship to the Starks. And the list goes on.

If any of the older generation lords that currently rule major Houses in the North had a sister that married Rickard, then they would be close kin to the current generation of Stark kids. And this would have come up in conversations by now.

If you go through the list you will find that most of the Northern Houses are eliminated by analyzing them in this fashion, leaving only a couple of Houses as realistic possibilities.

Well, the last line of House Hornwood seems to have died out with Lady Hornwood, so that would fit. There's no one to talk to.

[Ser Eric]

It's certainly an interesting topic.

I like the idea of his mother being a Skagosi bride. That would fit in nicely with Rickon going there.

But given Rickard's southern ambitions, wouldn't it be more likely that his wife was from the South? Of course we don't know whether the marriage was arranged by him or if his father was alive at that point.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Are you certain that when referencing "The Female Line", its actually referring to the Hornwood's female line, rather than the Flint's female line? I'm inclined to believe its the later.

Yes, I am sure.

Well, the last line of House Hornwood seems to have died out with Lady Hornwood, so that would fit. There's no one to talk to.

Not entirely. The legitimate male line died off, but there is Lord Halys' bastard son, and also his sister's two boys. Berena Hornwood was married to Leobald Tallhart and has two sons. They both have a claim through the female line (their mother) to the Hornwood Lordship.

[The Mad Wolf]

No way a commoner

[Veltigar]

If I had to guess now than I'd say that she would have been a Skagosi. But that's only because of Rickon going to Skagos.

[Waylin Stark]

I never thought Ned's mom could be a Skagosi because the appear to be savage cannabilistic self-governing isolated tribals, potentially worse than wildlings, Vale clansmen, and even Dothraki.

Why'd Rickard reach out to them? Unless he fell in love with a hot tribeswoman riding a unicorn while eating a liver.

Crackpot: She's some granddaughter of Aegon V, who'd be Aerys' second cousin.