Small questions v.10079

[TheCrannogDweller]

So its possible that Jaime is the valonquar?

Yes. There is a fair amount of threads devoted to that particular theory in this section of the forum.

[mindchap]

So its possible that Jaime is the valonquar?

Yes. There is a fair amount of threads devoted to that particular theory in this section of the forum.

:agree: Just adding a link. :)

Copy and paste the following into google. That will give you a lot of threads from just this forum:

Valonquar site:asoiaf.westeros.org

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Could one of you lovely people provide me with a link that shows me exactly how the PL looked printed in the books? I'm playing with something but it requires that I know exactly which word was written on which line & I only have E-books so it may not be the same. Thanks!

If you tell me what PL means :) I'll probably say "oh, that's right"*facepalm* when you say it, but right now, my mind it blank.

Might it be possible that being knighted is considered as reaching the status of formal manhood among the southron highborn circle?

Something like knighthood is for men, squiring for boys. You'll be considered a boy until you earn your spurs. Boys don't marry, only men do, and if you are highborn (but not a lord), you have better be knighted before marrying someone?

Because other than the honour of marrying a knight instead of a squire, kind of makes little difference. And for that matter, if she waits a a few more years, she might be marrying a landed lord (or a completely different person, because he is already a corpse).

ETA: I know it's more or less the same i asked before, but I'm exploring possibilities.

About when boys reach manhood, I found this:

“A boy,” said Dany. “He was only a boy.”

“Six-and-ten,” Hizdahr insisted. “A man grown, who freely chose to risk his life for gold and glory.

Stupidly, Jon argued. "I’ll be fifteen on my name day," he said. "Almost a man grown."

Until the dawn of his fifteenth name day, when he had been awakened to find his horse saddled and ready. Three men-at-arms had escorted him into a wood near Horn Hill, where his father was skinning a deer. "You are almost a man grown now, and my heir," Lord Randyll Tarly had told his eldest son, his long knife laying bare the carcass as he spoke.

"Still... the honor of the north is in my hands now. When our lord father took his leave of us, he told me to be strong for you and for Rickon. I’m almost a man grown, Bran."

Says Robb when he has just turned 15

"I do," the fat boy blurted. He was older than Jon, a man grown by law, but it was hard to think of him as anything but a boy.

"Don’t call me the boy," Robb said, rounding on his uncle, his anger spilling out all at once on poor Edmure, who had only meant to support him. "I’m almost a man grown, and a king-your king, ser.

Robb is still 15 here

"Robb was sixteen a few days past... a man grown, and a king.

Robb stood on the dais. He is a boy no longer, she realized with a pang. He is sixteen now, a man grown.

Gendry was the closest thing to a man grown, but it was Willow shouting all the orders, as if she were a queen in her castle and the other children were no more than servants.

Gendry will turn 16 in 300AC, making Brienne correct here

So for boys, at least by law, turning 16 will make them a man grown.

Now for the girls:

Meera Reed was sixteen, a woman grown, but she stood no higher than her brother.

Meera suggests it is the same for girls. But then, LF ruins that logic with this:

Winterfell was the home of your childhood, Sansa, but you are no longer a child. You’re a woman grown, and you need to make your own home."

Sansa is 13 years old. However, Lysa later counters LF with this:

Lysa’s nostrils flared. "And why would he do that? He has a wife who loves him. A woman grown, not a little girl. He has no need for the likes of you. Confess, child. You threw yourself at him. That was the way of it."

The woman grown in Lysa's sentence is Lysa herself, the little girl is Sansa. I admit, Lysa is not the perfect measure here :)

She was older than Arya, though; almost sixteen, a woman grown.

This is from Meera, from before she turned 15. So perhaps a girl is a woman grown after her flowering? That would fit with Sansa.

Theon answered. “Arya of House Stark comes here to be wed. A woman grown and flowered, trueborn and noble, she comes to beg the blessings of the gods. Who comes to claim her?”

Even though fake Arya is older than real Arya, Jeyne is being passed off as an 11-year old Arya. 11 years old, and being called a woman grown.. Though flowered, according to Theon, which might be important.

“Sixteen on my next nameday. And no child, but a woman grown and flowered.”

Alys Karstark. Not yet 16, but a woman grown. And flowered. The exact thing is said about her during her wedding, when she still hasn't turned 16 yet.

A girl might spend her life at play, but she was a woman grown, a queen, a wife, a mother to thousands.

Dany will be turning 16 in 300AC, though admittingly, according to the timeline, her nameday has already passed.

She was a scrawny thing, no proper meal for a giant, and almost eleven, practically a woman grown.

This is Arya speaking.

However, Arianne tells us something important:

"I am three-and-twenty, for seven years a woman grown."

Being 23 years old and having been a woman grown for 7 years, would make Arianne having become a woman grown at the age of 16.

So what I'm concluding from this is the following:

Boys will become a man grown when they turn 16, whether they have been knighted yet or not. They become a man grown by law.

Girls will become a woman grown when they flower, or when they turn 16 and haven't flowered yet. Turning 16 will be becoming a woman grown by law, flowering before will make them a woman grown by nature.

Edit: Funfact just discovered. 20 quote blocks are the maximum amount of quote blocks. Yes, originally, I had more quotes about this :)

[lord summers]

^^ Thanks to everyone really appreciated!!

Does anyone know if GRRM plans on releasing all the Dunk and Egg novels when they are all completed?

Also it would be helpful to know a list of ASOIAF-related books coming out in the future?

[Rill Redthorn]

^^ Thanks to everyone really appreciated!!

Does anyone know if GRRM plans on releasing all the Dunk and Egg novels when they are all completed?

Also it would be helpful to know a list of ASOIAF-related books coming out in the future?

His latest blog post said he's planning to release the collected D&E novellas after WOW is published. He's got two collection novels planned, each with three D&E novellas in it. The first will be called "A Knight of Westeros" (maybe) and will have the three already-published D&E stories. The second is still pretty hazy but he has two D&E stories mapped out with working titles ("She Wolves of Winterfell" and "The Village Hero") that will be included.

Rumor has it that "A Knight of Westeros" will have quite a few high-quality illustrations as well.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

^^ Thanks to everyone really appreciated!!

Does anyone know if GRRM plans on releasing all the Dunk and Egg novels when they are all completed?

Also it would be helpful to know a list of ASOIAF-related books coming out in the future?

Next year, a volume containing the first three Dunk and Egg novels will be released, as stated in a recent Not a Blog by GRRM.

For all ASOIAF-books and related books that have been released and that will be released, keep an eye on this thread

Though I should mention that a fifth Dunk and Egg novel, still unnamed, and only in existence in the head of GRRM, and no where else, has not yet been mentioned on that page. But that seems logical.

[lord summers]

Once again, thanks for the replys and links

[Fragile Bird]

In my re-reads, I keep trying to make sense of Patchface's words and songs, but I am having great difficulty making sense of mermaids making gowns of silver seaweed and the rain falling upwards. Does anyone have any insights to share, and is there a good thread?

ETA: Perhaps I should add, other than possibly being a vessel to be warged into by Bloodraven, though I see no connections or hints that could be the case. I would think if someone was communicating through him, they'd be more direct. :p

[Roddy Darwin]

In my re-reads, I keep trying to make sense of Patchface's words and songs, but I am having great difficulty making sense of mermaids making gowns of silver seaweed and the rain falling upwards. Does anyone have any insights to share, and is there a good thread?

There's this one: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61391-patchface-project/

Where this particular one is discussed at some point.

I like the idea of the mermaids being the Manderly girls, but that's pretty much all I've got.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

In my re-reads, I keep trying to make sense of Patchface's words and songs, but I am having great difficulty making sense of mermaids making gowns of silver seaweed and the rain falling upwards. Does anyone have any insights to share, and is there a good thread?

ETA: Perhaps I should add, other than possibly being a vessel to be warged into by Bloodraven, though I see no connections or hints that could be the case. I would think if someone was communicating through him, they'd be more direct. :P

In addition to the thread Roddy DaRwin linked, try these two pages from the Citadel of Westeros.org

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1801

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1817

They're not much though.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Strange thing. In Dance, Barristan says:

“It is no simple thing to slay a dragon in the sky. In Westeros, many tried to bring down Aegon and his sisters. None succeeded.”

But we've learned in the Princess and the Queen that Meraxes was killed by the Dornish. Does this indicate that Meraxes wasn't flying while she was killed, but had been on the ground?

[HexMachina]

Strange thing. In Dance, Barristan says:

But we've learned in the Princess and the Queen that Meraxes was killed by the Dornish. Does this indicate that Meraxes wasn't flying while she was killed, but had been on the ground?

But Maester Gyldayn seems to think that Meraxes doed in a very similar way to Jacerys' dragon (I'm sorry, I forgot its name). As we know, Jacerys' dragon was in flight when the bolts pierced it

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

But Maester Gyldayn seems to think that Meraxes doed in a very similar way to Jacerys' dragon (I'm sorry, I forgot its name). As we know, Jacerys' dragon was in flight when the bolts pierced it

To be fair, Vermax (:))was first hit by the water, and crashed. Whatever hit the dragon next, I doubt it can count as the same.

Barristan was talking about taking out a dragon in full flight.

[RumHam]

But Maester Gyldayn seems to think that Meraxes doed in a very similar way to Jacerys' dragon (I'm sorry, I forgot its name). As we know, Jacerys' dragon was in flight when the bolts pierced it

Some claimed a crossbowman put an iron bolt through his eye, but this version seems suspiciously similar to the way Meraxes met her end, long ago in Dorne.

I think two dragons dying from a bolt through the eye would still be considered similar, even if one was on the ground.

I would assume either Meraxes was killed on the ground, or Barristan is misinformed or referring specificity to the War of Conquest.

[Fragile Bird]

There's this one: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61391-patchface-project/

Where this particular one is discussed at some point.

I like the idea of the mermaids being the Manderly girls, but that's pretty much all I've got.

In addition to the thread Roddy DaRwin linked, try these two pages from the Citadel of Westeros.org

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1801

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1817

They're not much though.

Thanks guys.

Many of the thoughts expressed in the thread had crossed my mind, like the ideas about the Red Wedding, Jon Connington, Euron raiding the Shield Islands and Manderly serving up the Freys.

I laughed out loud at the idea of Patchface having eaten everyone on the ship and sinking the boat to cover his work. :P

Someone mentions Jon Snow being linked to snow falling upwards, but I thought Patchface only mentioned rain falling upwards, not snow. So, sadly, the 2 I'm puzzling over, rain falling upwards and mermaids weaving gowns of silver seaweed I still need to puzzle out.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It should be stated somewhere that killing your own kin, thus becoming a kinslayer, gets you kicked out of the line of inheritance, right? But where is it?

[Unlady B]

If you tell me what PL means :) I'll probably say "oh, that's right"*facepalm* when you say it, but right now, my mind it blank.

So what I'm concluding from this is the following:

Boys will become a man grown when they turn 16, whether they have been knighted yet or not. They become a man grown by law.

Girls will become a woman grown when they flower, or when they turn 16 and haven't flowered yet. Turning 16 will be becoming a woman grown by law, flowering before will make them a woman grown by nature.

PL I assume it refers to the Pink Letter.

About the knighthood/manhood matter, I found this searching the Citadel:

Squires can be men of any age, even into their 40's. They are men who either had too little money and thus were unable to keep themselves equipped, or they were men who didn't have the inclination to become knights for any number of reasons (SSM)

So, although we generally see boys squiring, there can be grown men at the task. So no knight/man-squire/boy relationship. As you said, a man is a man when he turns 16.

I then assume that the Tyrell girl waiting till her fiancee earned his spurs is only a sort of fashion.

Knighthood is seen as primarily a martial position, so even the sons of powerful lords are not necessarily knighted if they are incapable of fulfilling the requirements. Doing otherwise would lose honor rather than gain it, and would make a lord and his family be held up to ridicule (SSM)

Social pressure keeps knighthood from being exploited by unscrupulous knights who might give the accolade for money (SSM)

I have a problem with these last quotes. It's like the ideal scenario in Westeros, but through out the story there are several examples of knights that don't fulfill these requirements.

In regard of the second quote, I really can't imagine a lord's son staying a squire forever even if he's not qualified.

Let's say Tyrion had tried to become a knight, regardless of his prowess in the "martial art", most knights surely would never dare to dub a dwarf a knight, but you have to have balls to refuse dubbing Lord Tywin's son. Lucky for them, Tyrion never bothered with knighthood (or Tywin never allowed him to).

Even then, those are Matin's quotes... it's very hard (and pointless) to try to tell otherwise.

ETA: Found something else:

The age of legal majority for men and women is 16 (SSM: 1)

[RumHam]

It should be stated somewhere that killing your own kin, thus becoming a kinslayer, gets you kicked out of the line of inheritance, right? But where is it?

Why do you say that? I don't ever remember reading anything about that... Maekar certainly wasn't removed from the line, nor was Aemond (though he was pretty far down the line.)

[Fragile Bird]

Kinslaying is often referred to in the books as a horrible crime, the most evil of crimes, but I don't remember any mention of it kicking you out of the line of succession. Killing your father might have consequences, like those visited on the Stark who killed Bael the Bard (his mother killing herself, and the Boltons killing him). Of course, if you kill your father and get caught, you'll likely be hanged or decapitated. And likely Tywin would have disinherited Tyrion had Tyrion not killed him first.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Why do you say that? I don't ever remember reading anything about that... Maekar certainly wasn't removed from the line, nor was Aemond (though he was pretty far down the line.)

Kinslaying is often referred to in the books as a horrible crime, the most evil of crimes, but I don't remember any mention of it kicking you out of the line of succession. Killing your father might have consequences, like those visited on the Stark who killed Bael the Bard (his mother killing herself, and the Boltons killing him). Of course, if you kill your father and get caught, you'll likely be hanged or decapitated. And likely Tywin would have disinherited Tyrion had Tyrion not killed him first.

O damn, I thought this was a law..

Say, a son wanting to inherit, so he kills his father, instead of waiting for his father to die..

The Baelor/Maekar thing was obviously an accident, which is why that instance wouldn't count.. (I should have specified by saying "killed on purpose", which Maekar did not do)