Small questions v.10079

[HexMachina]

^Theon is actually an old name, one of the Starks in the crypts is called Theon Stark, iirc he is the Hungry Wolf.

[LordStoneheart]

Was there a reason Eddard's nickname is Ned? I thought I read a specific reason once

[MadKingDavid]

^Theon is actually an old name, one of the Starks in the crypts is called Theon Stark, iirc he is the Hungry Wolf.

Hmm. Good memory. He was king in the north, so that predates the Targaeryen conquest. I suppose it could be just a coincidence--maybe GRRM just had "theon" on the brain. :P

[HexMachina]

Hmm. Good memory. He was king in the north, so that predates the Targaeryen conquest. I suppose it could be just a coincidence--maybe GRRM just had "theon" on the brain. :P

I think that while some names are more popular in certain regions (e.g. Brandon in the North, Brynden in the Riverlands) they are not specific to each region. For example, Balon Greyjoy and Balon Swann, Alysanne Mormont and Alysanne Targaryen, then of course the Freys.

[MadKingDavid]

I think that while some names are more popular in certain regions (e.g. Brandon in the North, Brynden in the Riverlands) they are not specific to each region. For example, Balon Greyjoy and Balon Swann, Alysanne Mormont and Alysanne Targaryen, then of course the Freys.

Sure, but is there any other given name that's a piece of a surname?

[HexMachina]

Do we know if Daeryssa is a Targaryen, or even an actual person? (i.e not from the Age of Heroes). She is mentioned by Sansa as having been rescued from giants by Serwyn of the Mirror Shield.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Just noticed that in The Sworn Sword. Septon Sefton talks with Dunk about the Great Spring Sickness in King's Landing:

"They say the spring was bad in Lannisport and worse in Oldtown, but in King's Landing it cut down four of ten. Neither young nor old were spared, nor rich nor poor, nor great nor humble. Our good High Septon was taken, the gods' own voice on earth, with a third of the Most Devout and near all our silent sisters. His Grace King Daeron, sweet Matarys and bold Valarr, the Hand oh, it was a dreadful time. By the end, half the city was praying to the Stranger."

This dead Hand can't be Baelor Breakspear, he died before the Sickness. The wiki lists Bloodraven as the Hand named after Baelor, but doesn't it miss an unnamed Hand who lasted one year before Bloodraven?

[Consigliere]

Just noticed that in The Sworn Sword. Septon Sefton talks with Dunk about the Great Spring Sickness in King's Landing:

"They say the spring was bad in Lannisport and worse in Oldtown, but in King's Landing it cut down four of ten. Neither young nor old were spared, nor rich nor poor, nor great nor humble. Our good High Septon was taken, the gods' own voice on earth, with a third of the Most Devout and near all our silent sisters. His Grace King Daeron, sweet Matarys and bold Valarr, the Hand oh, it was a dreadful time. By the end, half the city was praying to the Stranger."

This dead Hand can't be Baelor Breakspear, he died before the Sickness. The wiki lists Bloodraven as the Hand named after Baelor, but doesn't it miss an unnamed Hand who lasted one year before Bloodraven?

I think that the "Hand" may be referring to Valarr, Baelor's eldest son, who following his death, may have taken his place as Hand.

The wiki shows BR as Hand during Aerys I reign but surely someone must have taken Baelor's place after his death. I think that his son replaced him.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Wouldn't Valarr have been too young to be named Hand? Baelor was 39 when he died, so Valarr should be around 20 years old, no?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Do we know if Daeryssa is a Targaryen, or even an actual person? (i.e not from the Age of Heroes). She is mentioned by Sansa as having been rescued from giants by Serwyn of the Mirror Shield.

We don't even know when she lived. The name sounds like a Targaryen, but the story doesn't fit as having happened after the Conquest, IIRC. And if Serwyn really was a KG, it must have happened after the Conquest, since the KG was created by Aegon I.

Just noticed that in The Sworn Sword. Septon Sefton talks with Dunk about the Great Spring Sickness in King's Landing:

"They say the spring was bad in Lannisport and worse in Oldtown, but in King's Landing it cut down four of ten. Neither young nor old were spared, nor rich nor poor, nor great nor humble. Our good High Septon was taken, the gods' own voice on earth, with a third of the Most Devout and near all our silent sisters. His Grace King Daeron, sweet Matarys and bold Valarr, the Hand oh, it was a dreadful time. By the end, half the city was praying to the Stranger."

This dead Hand can't be Baelor Breakspear, he died before the Sickness. The wiki lists Bloodraven as the Hand named after Baelor, but doesn't it miss an unnamed Hand who lasted one year before Bloodraven?

The Hand of those few missing months is unknown, but it does seem like he died during the Spring Sickness as well. Bloodraven was his successor.

There are still a few Hands missing, but Baelor died in office in 209AC, and Bloodraven was named in office in 209AC. It's just that in those few months in between, there was another, and we don't know who it was. From the quote you provided, it seems like it wasn't Valarr, nor Matarys, nor any of the other Targaryens.

Wouldn't Valarr have been too young to be named Hand? Baelor was 39 when he died, so Valarr should be around 20 years old, no?

Valarr would not be too young. We don't have a minimum age for Hands.

[HexMachina]

So Daeryssa is a bit of a mystery then? She was rescued (so the tale goes) by a Kingsguard, suggesting post-Conquest, but she was rescued from "Giants" suggesting pre-conquest. Hmm. Odd.

I think I'm going to assume she is a figure of myth/legend within ASoIaF, because the alternative is to assume she was a Targaryen who went missing in the North, which is reaching i think

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So Daeryssa is a bit of a mystery then? She was rescued (so the tale goes) by a Kingsguard, suggesting post-Conquest, but she was rescued from "Giants" suggesting pre-conquest. Hmm. Odd.

I think I'm going to assume she is a figure of myth/legend within ASoIaF, because the alternative is to assume she was a Targaryen who went missing in the North, which is reaching i think

I think it's more likely that the tales of Daeryssa, and of Serwyn the Mirror Shield, are all elements from different people from different times, that, because the tales have been told over and over, have at some point merged together in the telling, like tales can grow in the telling. Perhaps there has been a Princess Daeryssa, perhaps she was a daughter of Jaehaerys and Alysanne (I mean, they did have 9 children, big chance some of them were girls), and perhaps she did once get saved by a knight from the KG. But a giant? I doubt it. It might have been another knight, who once, many many years before, saved someone from a giant, back when Giants still roamed the north. But I don't think that Giants have been south of the Wall for the past 8000 years, since the Wall went up. I don´t think there are any references to that though.

What we can be certain off is that it all happened before the Dance of the Dragons, since the same ploy Serwyn used, was tried during the Dance (it did not work though)

But a little vague, definitly

[Consigliere]

Wouldn't Valarr have been too young to be named Hand? Baelor was 39 when he died, so Valarr should be around 20 years old, no?

I don't think he would have been too young.

The phrasing of that passage is ambiguous but until we receive information to the contrary I will continue to assume that Valarr was Hand after his father. Daeron appears to have been a wise ruler. He would have known that Valarr, as heir, would likely inherit the throne sooner rather than later and what better way to gain experience of ruling the kingdom than by giving him the Handship. This would also have ensured a smoother transition Daeron’s death.

[RumHam]

So Daeryssa is a bit of a mystery then? She was rescued (so the tale goes) by a Kingsguard, suggesting post-Conquest, but she was rescued from "Giants" suggesting pre-conquest. Hmm. Odd.

I think I'm going to assume she is a figure of myth/legend within ASoIaF, because the alternative is to assume she was a Targaryen who went missing in the North, which is reaching i think

The only real hint* that she and Serwyn were from the age of heroes is the mention of giants. Since we know giants are actually still alive north of the wall, I wouldn't rule out Daeryssa, Serwyn and Urrax being real. We even know that six dragons, some of them with unknown riders, traveled to the north something like 200 years ago. It would seem odd to me for a (half) Maester use something that was known to be bullshit to test Tyrion's knowledge of history.

*There's also this:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Which_are_the_dragons_that_have_been_named

Legends of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield—a figure Martin says originates in from the distant past, but has been used repeatedly by contemporary singers—claim he defeated the dragon Urrax using his shield to distract it.

But there's no source or anything, and I could not find any other record of Martin saying that.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Why does everyone refer to the leader of the great houses as Lord Paramounts? As far as I can tell it's entirely baseless except for the Tully/Baelish lord as they are actually called Lord Paramounts of the Trident.

[RumHam]

Why does everyone refer to the leader of the great houses as Lord Paramounts? As far as I can tell it's entirely baseless except for the Tully/Baelish lord as they are actually called Lord Paramounts of the Trident.

Yeah, you're technically correct. It's just easier to apply the term generally. Especially because some of the people we call Lords Paramount aren't wardens of anything. Be interesting to see if the world book uses the term like we fans do or not.

[Consigliere]

Why does everyone refer to the leader of the great houses as Lord Paramounts? As far as I can tell it's entirely baseless except for the Tully/Baelish lord as they are actually called Lord Paramounts of the Trident.

I think that Lord Paramount is the title give to the leader of the ruling house of a particular region, except Dorne. I don't reall anyone other than LF being referred to as Lord Paramount though.

[Rill Redthorn]

Someone with a name beginning with the "Ed" sound going by "Ned" is an old British-ism: it comes from "an Eddard", which if you run it together becomes "A Neddard" or a "A Ned". This is why Edric Dayne is also referred to as "Ned" ("An Edric"). Obviously it's not used consistently as we have Dolorous Edd and not Dolorous Ned, but it's common. It's a bit like someone named "John" having the nickname "Jack" instead of "Johnny." So in the U.S. we had Jack Kennedy (John F. Kennedy). And my father and maternal uncle, who are both Johns, go by Jack instead except for legal purposes. But "Johnny" is also very common in many families, so it's a matter of taste more than anything.

On a different question: 20 years old is definitely not too young to be King's Hand, because that's the age Tywin was when Aerys gave him the job, and it's how old JonCon was as well. In the D&E stories the position of Hand seems to generally go to the King-in-training (the Heir) if he's old enough and suitable for the post, so chances are excellent it was Valarr who was being referred to in that sentence as having died of the plague.

Of course that makes me think...why, after Tywin was fired and/or quit as Aerys' hand, did Aerys pick all those nobodies as short-term Hands instead of giving Rhaegar the job? He really must have been paranoid about Rhaegar deposing him to pass the Crown Prince over for that post...or was it that he couldn't find Rhaegar to appoint him because Rhaegar had gone missing? Hmm.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Of course that makes me think...why, after Tywin was fired and/or quit as Aerys' hand, did Aerys pick all those nobodies as short-term Hands instead of giving Rhaegar the job? He really must have been paranoid about Rhaegar deposing him to pass the Crown Prince over for that post...or was it that he couldn't find Rhaegar to appoint him because Rhaegar had gone missing? Hmm.

Rhaegar was nowhere to be found :)

And after Rhaegar returned, why give him the job? Someone else already held the office, binding said person to Aerys' side. Rhaegar was on Aerys' side anyway.

[Rill Redthorn]

Rhaegar was nowhere to be found :)

And after Rhaegar returned, why give him the job? Someone else already held the office, binding said person to Aerys' side. Rhaegar was on Aerys' side anyway.

Aerys didn't believe that, however (and it wasn't necessarily true, either.) Aerys believed Rhaegar was organizing the High Lords to set up a Great Council and depose him...which would have been an excellent idea.