Cultural influences / Anthropological parallels

[Frey Pentos]

Why I included Wales in Dorne is solely because GRRM said: "Dorne is definitely influenced a bit by Spain, a bit by Wales."

And this is from GoT wikia: There is also some slight inspiration from the example of real-life Wales, but only in the sense that just as the Norman Invasion of 1066 didn't succeed in conquering the mountainous peninsula of Wales, and it took generations to bring Wales under control, within the narrative the Targaryen Conquest didn't succeed in conquering Dorne, and it remained an independent border state which frustrated any further attempts at conquest by the Targaryens for another two centuries, before being peacefully absorbed through marriage-alliance. The similarities with Wales stop there.

I see what you mean. The other thing that has always made me think The Vale was Wales was the Mountain Clans. I imagined the Knights of the Vale to be the Norman/Plantagenet conquerors and the Mountain Clans to be the indigenous welsh, which would be similar to the real history.

[Lord Reaver]

I disagree with your first part completely.

I agree with your second part completely. I'd even say that Viking would be better usage than Norse. But Greyjoys do use longboats and they are raiders -

"Going Viking" was a tiny part of the norse culture. It's like saying the american culture is defined by having thanksgiving dinner.

You say you disagree with my first part, but the only examples of similarities you present are incredibly shallow: Using longboats and raiding. The former isn't even a strictly Ironborn thing, as we see people elsewhere using them too (e.g. the Shield Islanders).

There's a few more things, such as the use of the word thrall (though GRRM's take on thralls isn't fully fleshed out, and doesn't seem to be entirely equal to the old Norse), and the resemblance of the Iron Fleet to the Leidang, but aside from that...ehhh, yeah. It's pretty shallow.

[Starspear]

"Going Viking" was a tiny part of the norse culture. It's like saying the american culture is defined by having thanksgiving dinner.

You say you disagree with my first part, but the only examples of similarities you present are incredibly shallow: Using longboats and raiding. The former isn't even a strictly Ironborn thing, as we see people elsewhere using them too (e.g. the Shield Islanders).

There's a few more things, such as the use of the word thrall (though GRRM's take on thralls isn't fully fleshed out, and doesn't seem to be entirely equal to the old Norse), and the resemblance of the Iron Fleet to the Leidang, but aside from that...ehhh, yeah. It's pretty shallow.

I think you are just looking to argue.

I know exactly what Viking (verb) means. This post is not about them (Viking noun). What do you want to talk about? About the Elder Eddas (which is almost the only source of Norse knowledge)? Do you want to talk about Norse haplogroups? Do you want to talk about the various Norse tribes? The Native European and Central Asian connection? Do you want to talk about Odin and who he might have been?

Read the caveat in post #1. If you think that GRRM is as deep an anthropologist or linguist (as in the vein of Tolkien), you are sorely mistaken. GRRM says as much in an interview.

The Greyjoys have a shallow reference to Vikings. If the comparison is shallow... it's because it's shallow in the books. And even more so in the show. The longboat for raiding purposes was perfected by the Vikings. Fact.

This is a forum. Who wants to read an actual essay on a fantasy series forum? Nobody.

You are welcome to provide additional info on the Vikings - but calling this presentation shallow is silly. Again read caveat in the OP.

Lastly - yes, I disagree with your first part; go read back what your first part was. Your claim that cultural influences and anthropological parallels are not very good terms... Wrong. Cultural influences and anthropological parallels are what this thread presents.

There is not a single group that I put as influences that I cannot back. So test me.

OP Note: regarding references to mythology - Atlantis is as close to the Targaryen Doom as we have in history. There is Pompei, there is Thera, and others... but none of which parallel Valyria as well as Atlantis.

[Starspear]

I see what you mean. The other thing that has always made me think The Vale was Wales was the Mountain Clans. I imagined the Knights of the Vale to be the Norman/Plantagenet conquerors and the Mountain Clans to be the indigenous welsh, which would be similar to the real history.

Here's additional info on Welsh/Dorne connection from GRRM directly (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2997):

[What is the Welsh influence in how you envision Dorne?]

Several genertaions of English kings tried to add Wales to the English crown, but never with much success. The Welsh successfully resisted for centuries... not by defeating the English in large battles, but by melting away into their mountains and hills and waging campaigns of small scale resistance... what today we would call "guerilla warfare" or maybe even "terrorism." The Dornish used the same approach.

[Lord Reaver]

I know exactly what Viking (verb) means. This post is not about them (Viking noun).

When you first say "cultural influence" and then state "Vikings" as said influence, you're showing a lack of understanding of either the concept "culture" or "Viking". I naturally assumed it was the latter, since that is less commonly known. Now it seems to be you are willfully ignoring the definition of the former, to make your point.

"Vikings" wasn't a culture. If anything it was a small part of the larger whole which was the old Norse. That was the point I was getting at.

What do you want to talk about? About the Elder Eddas (which is almost the only source of Norse knowledge)?

Mainly I just wanted to note that the connection to the Norse is extremely shallow, as you just conceded. So, there's little left here for me.

But the Eddas are by far not our only source. Firsly, you're ignoring an entire field (that of archaelogy), secondly, you're ignoring all the other sagas (of which there are quite a few). On the plus side, you have a lot of great reading ahead of you, should you choose to expand your knowledge.

[Starspear]

When you first say "cultural influence" and then state "Vikings" as said influence, you're showing a lack of understanding of either the concept "culture" or "Viking". I naturally assumed it was the latter, since that is less commonly known. Now it seems to be you are willfully ignoring the definition of the former, to make your point.

"Vikings" wasn't a culture. If anything it was a small part of the larger whole which was the old Norse. That was the point I was getting at.

Mainly I just wanted to note that the connection to the Norse is extremely shallow, as you just conceded. So, there's little left here for me.

But the Eddas are by far not our only source. Firsly, you're ignoring an entire field (that of archaelogy), secondly, you're ignoring all the other sagas (of which there are quite a few). On the plus side, you have a lot of great reading ahead of you, should you choose to expand your knowledge.

I used Viking in reference to your first posting. If you'll notice, initialiy I had only used Norse. But as the Greyjoys are not really Norse, I suggested using VIking - but specifically, I should have said the preconceived notions of "Vikings" (vulgar usage).

No - the Eddas (really the Elder Edda) is not the only source... but it is the main source of Norse mythology. This is fact. There are I-E sources and Germanic sources that can help reconstruct Norse mythology. Re: culture. We have records from a couple of Arab travelers, from the Byzantine court, from Baltic, and Russian sources too. And naturally the futhark.

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm not going to expand on one particuilar topic in a forum that is dedicated to something else. I can invite you to certain readings as well, if you want to be so generous and patronizing.

But as an aside, I'll never have enough time to read all that there is (sadly), so the general sentiment of your statement is nonetheless appreciated (in all honesty).

P.S. If you have books you are particularly fond of and care to suggest, please PM me.