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Painting Cersei as the "Victim" (Book Spoilers)


Whipsy

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No, I don't agree she was prepared to be a good wife, there's no evidence of that in the books; she had sex with Jaime on the morning of her wedding, that doesn't sound like being prepared to do anything. She was maybe somewhat attracted to Robert, although she was pissed at Tywin for marrying her to him, but that doesn't mean she loved him or wanted it to work.

perhaps by good wife you think i mean love him to bits. no, cersei never loved him to bits. she didn't love anyone to bits. yes, she slept with jaime and again that can be and should be used against her. however, when she married robert, she did not have any elaborate plans that we are told of. we are told that she is more than willing to perform her wifely duties, and it is from this that i say she was prepared to be a good wife since in westeros, all that was expected of high born women was heirs. she continued to do her wifely duties for a while until she gets proof of robert's infidelity. that's when things change. i'll add some quotes when i get my books.

as for being pissed at tywin for marrying her, you seem to be mixing up the timelines. at the time of the wedding, it's obvious there is no better match and she is not pissed however later on she definitely complains about be a broodmare.

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I always took it as she was in love with the attention and the crowd of adoring fans and not so much that she was super happy about marrying Robert. I believe she would have tried to be a dutiful wife at the start because that is what being Queen seems to entail but Robert being the drunkard he was and calling out Lyanna's name on their wedding night probably killed whatever sense of duty she had to him. She didn't know him before their wedding so I doubt she loved anything about him except the attention and praise he brought but their wedding night killed even that so she never had a chance to develop love, but it wasn't there from the get-go I don't believe. Of course, I also don't have my books so I could be wrong. Happened before.

She always resented him for killing Rhaegar, who she was infatuated with since she was 10 and wanted to marry. And the closest thing she comes to calling him attractive or saying anything positive about him is when she says he got her wet on their wedding night (and never again), before the "Lyanna" thing.

She does mention she was happy for a moment when she saw people cheering - but yeah, that seems to have been all about the adoration of the crowd and being a queen, not with Robert himself - and her happiness was short-lived, it only lasted until she saw Jaime's expression.

And yep, she fucked Jaime on the morning before the wedding, though that may have been planned as a goodbye sex, since she doesn't seem to have done it again until Robert knocked up the Florent girl and she told Jaime she wanted Robert horned. But I don't get the impression that Cersei was ever "dutiful", not in the sense "it's my sacred duty to be a good wife". She never seems to feel guilty about anything in the books (contrary to show!Cersei's speech about Joff being the punishment for her and Jaime's sins - book!Cersei adores Joffrey and doesn't feel guilty for her relationship with Jaime), she just doesn't want to be found out. Her problem with her relationship with Jaime is "Father might find out", not "it's morally wrong/sinful".

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bits. perhaps by good wife you think i mean love him to bits. no, cersei never loved him to bits. she didn't love anyone to yes, she slept with jaime and again that can be and should be used against her. however, when she married robert, she did not have any elaborate plans that we are told of. we are told that she is more than willing to perform her wifely duties, and it is from this that i say she was prepared to be a good wife since in westeros, all that was expected of high born women was heirs. she continued to do her wifely duties for a while until she gets proof of robert's infidelity. that's when things change. i'll add some quotes when i get my books.

as for being pissed at tywin for marrying her, you seem to be mixing up the timelines. at the time of the wedding, it's obvious there is no better match and she is not pissed however later on she definitely complains about be a broodmare.

No, I don't mean love, I mean that by having sex with Jaime on the morning of her wedding she didn't display any particular interest in being a "dutiful" wife.

As for being pissed at Tywin, Annara Snow ninja'd me, but she was always resentful because of Rhaegar.

And yep, she fucked Jaime on the morning before the wedding, though that may have been planned as a goodbye sex, since she doesn't seem to have done it again until Robert knocked up the Florent girl and she told Jaime she wanted Robert horned.

I don't remember that ever being stated though... I think it's safe to assume she and Jaime never stopped in the books.

In the show is a mess though, because Cersei was in love with Robert, and she was so in love even he could tell ("I felt something for you once, for quite some time" "I know" looking ashamed by himself). It doesn't explain how the Jaime thing even fit in that <_<

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perhaps by good wife you think i mean love him to bits. no, cersei never loved him to bits. she didn't love anyone to bits. yes, she slept with jaime and again that can be and should be used against her. however, when she married robert, she did not have any elaborate plans that we are told of. we are told that she is more than willing to perform her wifely duties, and it is from this that i say she was prepared to be a good wife since in westeros, all that was expected of high born women was heirs. she continued to do her wifely duties for a while until she gets proof of robert's infidelity. that's when things change. i'll add some quotes when i get my books.

as for being pissed at tywin for marrying her, you seem to be mixing up the timelines. at the time of the wedding, it's obvious there is no better match and she is not pissed however later on she definitely complains about be a broodmare.

"More than willing to perform her wifely duties"?! Hardly, judging by these quotes:

Cersei wondered what it would feel like to kiss another woman. Not lightly on the cheek, as was common courtesy amongst ladies of high birth, but full upon the lips. Taena’s lips were very full. She wondered what it would feel like to suckle on those breasts, to lay the Myrish woman on her back and push her legs apart and use her as a man would use her, the way Robert would use her when the drink was in him, and she was unable to bring him off with hand or mouth.

Those had been the worst nights, lying helpless underneath him as he took his pleasure, stinking of wine and grunting like a boar. Usually he rolled off and went to sleep as soon as it was done, and was snoring before his seed could dry upon her thighs. She was always sore afterward, raw between the legs, her breasts painful from the mauling he would give them. The only time he’d ever made her wet was on their wedding night.

Robert had been handsome enough when they first married, tall and strong and powerful, but his hair was black and heavy, thick on his chest and coarse around his sex. The wrong man came back from the Trident, the queen would sometimes think as he was plowing her. In the first few years, when he mounted her more often, she would close her eyes and pretend that he was Rhaegar. She could not pretend that he was Jaime; he was too different, too unfamiliar. Even the smell of him was wrong.

For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so he would have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her displeasure the next day. “You hurt me,” she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. “It was not me, my lady,” he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. “It was the wine. I drink too much wine.” To wash down his admission, he reached for his horn of ale. As he raised it to his mouth, she smashed her own horn in his face, so hard she chipped a tooth. Years later at a feast, she heard him telling a serving wench how he’d cracked the tooth in a mêlée. Well, our marriage was a mêlée, she reflected, so he did not lie.

The rest had all been lies, though. He did remember what he did to her at night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults did grow less frequent. During the first year he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely, though. Sooner or later there would always come a night when he would drink too much and want to claim his rights. What shamed him in the light of day gave him pleasure in the darkness.

She only states that he was tall and handsome enough - objectively, but.. (as Benjen said in the show, "my brother told me that nothing someone says before the word 'but..' actually counts") she apparently never personally found him attractive (she disliked his hairiness, tried to pretend that he was Rhaegar, he never got her wet other than their wedding day - and one doesn't even have to be particularly attracted to someone for the physical touch in the right places to make them aroused, so that's not evidence of a real attraction).

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She always resented him for killing Rhaegar, who she was infatuated with since she was 10 and wanted to marry. And the closest thing she comes to calling him attractive or saying anything positive about him is when she says he got her wet on their wedding night (and never again), before the "Lyanna" thing.

She does mention she was happy for a moment when she saw people cheering - but yeah, that seems to have been all about the adoration of the crowd and being a queen, not with Robert himself - and her happiness was short-lived, it only lasted until she saw Jaime's expression.

And yep, she fucked Jaime on the morning before the wedding, though that may have been planned as a goodbye sex, since she doesn't seem to have done it again until Robert knocked up the Florent girl and she told Jaime she wanted Robert horned. But I don't get the impression that Cersei was ever "dutiful", not in the sense "it's my sacred duty to be a good wife". She never seems to feel guilty about anything in the books (contrary to show!Cersei's speech about Joff being the punishment for her and Jaime's sins - book!Cersei adores Joffrey and doesn't feel guilty for her relationship with Jaime), she just doesn't want to be found out. Her problem with her relationship with Jaime is "Father might find out", not "it's morally wrong/sinful".

I can't believe I forgot to mention Rhaegar in my post since that is such a key factor in how she feels about Robert.

Also, the show really lays the whole "at least she loves her children" thing on thick. I think that she did love (or as close as she comes to doing that) and favor Joffrey because he was a great little psycho in the making but when it comes to Myrcella and Tommen they seem an afterthought and at times she really looks down on Tommen and his lacking of the same "qualities" that Joffrey had. I'm sure she cares for them more than any of the other people in the world but I wouldn't call it some great motherly love. I do not believe she is capable of that.

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She loves her children in the books as well, but it's a Cersei kind of love so it's all fucked up. She's desperate when she loses Joff though, and she has ambivalent feelings that swing between being annoyed by Tommen and wanting to defend him.


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Cersei in books is the kind of feminism I personally don't like: "omg, the society is mean to me so, that gives me right to do everything I want now I have the power (power that I didn't acquire on my own but was given to me by daddy and hubby) I'll show them what a woman is able to do!".



And then she fucked up everything.



She's not a victim: she's part of a society that also includes Cat, Dany, the Mormont women, Olenna, Margaery and many others. She's mean, vengeful and poorly prepared to rule. She ruined her older son and she's on the road to spoil another one: Joffrey wasn't what he was because he slipped out of her control but because she allowed him to do everything he wanted to, something that the show is so keen on showing.


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examples of cersei fulfilling her wifely duties

thanks for that. as i've mentioned i don't have my books right now. yes, she definitely willingly did her duty for a while. and yes, she stopped. right after she got proof that robert was sleeping with other women. and yes, she came to hate him, especially after he called her lyanna in bed but it was different before that. by no means was it an unending love but she was very eager and willing to marry robert since he was the nation's hero and new king which would allow her to become queen of westeros. which is the point i'm making.

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She loves her children in the books as well, but it's a Cersei kind of love so it's all fucked up. She's desperate when she loses Joff though, and she has ambivalent feelings that swing between being annoyed by Tommen and wanting to defend him.

True, I think this could be a better way to describe it. It's definitely not a healthy maternal love though. I still think that Joffrey was probably her favorite of the three in spite of if not because of his reprehensible qualities and while a lot of it was grief I also think that parts of the prophecy being filled also started her on her desperate track.

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thanks for that. as i've mentioned i don't have my books right now. yes, she definitely willingly did her duty for a while. and yes, she stopped. right after she got proof that robert was sleeping with other women. and yes, she came to hate him, especially after he called her lyanna in bed but it was different before that. by no means was it an unending love but she was very eager and willing to marry robert since he was the nation's hero and new king which would allow her to become queen of westeros. which is the point i'm making.

I don't think the quotes provided suggest she was willing to do her duty for a while at all.

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thanks for that. as i've mentioned i don't have my books right now. yes, she definitely willingly did her duty for a while. and yes, she stopped. right after she got proof that robert was sleeping with other women. and yes, she came to hate him, especially after he called her lyanna in bed but it was different before that. by no means was it an unending love but she was very eager and willing to marry robert since he was the nation's hero and new king which would allow her to become queen of westeros. which is the point i'm making.

Being sexually abused is "performing her wifely duties"? :huh: Or as you first put it "being more than willing to perform her wifely duties"?!

WTF??

And how does resenting Robert for killing Rhaegar and wishing that it had been the other way round become "being eager and willing to marry Robert since he was the nation's hero"?

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I don't think the quotes provided suggest she was willing to do her duty for a while at all.

they hardly say she wasn't. they state she wasn't happy but she definitely does her duty. and willingly. robert may have been a brute about it but she doesn't stop doing her duty or begin to trick him until they are at that castle and jaime follows him. not sure why we're expecting these two to be spouting love poems to one another as proof that they were willing to do what they had to do. too much of a modern lens being used here.

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they hardly say she wasn't. they state she wasn't happy but she definitely does her duty. and willingly. robert may have been a brute about it but she doesn't stop doing her duty or begin to trick him until they are at that castle and jaime follows him. not sure why we're expecting these two to be spouting love poems to one another as proof that they were willing to do what they had to do. too much of a modern lens being used here.

Where did I write about "spouting love poems"? She wasn't willing to do anything, not deliberately. She was forced in it, she had no choice. And when she did have a choice, she chooses to fuck Jaime and pass their children as Robert's.

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Cersei in books is the kind of feminism I personally don't like: "omg, the society is mean to me so, that gives me right to do everything I want now I have the power (power that I didn't acquire on my own but was given to me by daddy and hubby) I'll show them what a woman is able to do!".

And then she fucked up everything.

She's not a victim: she's part of a society that also includes Cat, Dany, the Mormont women, Olenna, Margaery and many others. She's mean, vengeful and poorly prepared to rule. She ruined her older son and she's on the road to spoil another one: Joffrey wasn't what he was because he slipped out of her control but because she allowed him to do everything he wanted to, something that the show is so keen on showing.

Uh, that's not any kind of feminism. Cersei is a "feminist" in the way that Baelish is a believer in equal opportunities for everyone.

Feminism is about the rights of women - all women - and equality of the two genders. Cersei only wants to have the same rights as men herself - because she thinks she is a special snowflake. She doesn't think that other women should have the same rights - no, she despises or hates them and subjects them to the same kind of abuse that she resents when it's directed against herself. (Her own daughter is the only exception - she gets upset about Myrcella being shipped off to Dorne, but look at everything she did to Sansa. She also gives her handmaidens and other women to Qyburn, tries to frame Margaery [and then only feels it's unjust when she herself gets subjected to that treatment], thinks that the septas could do with a bit of rape, has no empathy for Lollys. etc.) She is a very misogynistic character.

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Where did I write about "spouting love poems"? She wasn't willing to do anything, not deliberately. She was forced in it, she had no choice. And when she did have a choice, she chooses to fuck Jaime and pass their children as Robert's.

Exactly.

Some people have a very strange definition of 'willing'. Basically, as long as she doesn't take a knife and cut his throat when he comes to her bed (which would mean being executed for regicide, BTW), she's "willing"? :huh:

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Uh, that's not any kind of feminism. Cersei is a "feminist" in the way that Baelish is a believer in equal opportunities for everyone.

Feminism is about the rights of women - all women - and equality of the two genders. Cersei only wants to have the same rights as men herself - because she thinks she is a special snowflake. She doesn't think that other women should have the same rights - no, she despises or hates them and subjects them to the same kind of abuse that she resents when it's directed against herself. She is a very misogynistic character.

:ph34r:

Also, ITA with your first post.

Honestly, the way things have been up until now, it can go down two ways :

1) they keep whitewashing her

2) they make her characterization spin all of the sudden (somehow triggerd by Joff's death), which is terrible since she's just been raped (thanks again guys) and had all this crap thrown at her, and they expect the audience to accept her newfound evilness ? Either people won't buy it, or (I fear it) they'll say she had it coming.

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Eh I think show cersei is better than book cersei, whose motivations once revealed see idiotic,beyond idiotic. Grrm wanted fans to have the same sympathetic reactions they had to Jamie and theon, and failed because of those motivation. Cersei makes more sense as a visibly abused woman. I loved that in season one and two they indirectly compared arya and cersei, first when Ned said arya would Mary a Lord, and then when tywin says arya is like his daughter. Do we think arya would have been such a pleasant person if she had been put in cersei situation. I think the show has done a better job of making cersei (and littlefinger) real people.


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What especially irritates me is that they seem to think that a female character will only be more "likable" if she's stripped of any agency and power and portrayed as a victim instead of someone who makes her own choices.

I hate when people say that show!Cersei is "more complex" than book!Cersei or that book!Cersei is "one-dimensional". No, she is not. Book!Cersei is a villain, and she's also been a victim (as a woman, she had no choice in who she was going to marry, married off to a stranger as a broodmare in political marriage, sexually and physically abused by Robert) but she's also an unrepentant murderer and abuser herself and has no empathy for people who are in a similar position as she is; she can be hateful, pitiable, unintentionally and sometimes even intentionally funny.

But what I like about book!Cersei is that she makes her own choices: she wasn't able to decide who she would marry, but she chooses whose children she'll have; she doesn't try to be a 'good wife' to Robert who is a bad husband to her; she aborts his baby (instead of some sob story in which she lost her baby and then it all went bad, she actually made a choice); she commits murders herself, and isn't just Joffrey's powerless mother who whines that she can't control him (it usually doesn't seem like she even tries to control him); she has sex with her brother in the sept next to her dead son's body because she chooses to, because "she's as hungry for him as he is for her" (GRRM about the book scene); she never felt guilty about her sexual relationship with her twin brother (as she does in the show), which she's been having since they were kids, she was just worried about getting caught.

Why does Cersei have to (what D&D see as) "likable"? Why can't she be a strong, interesting villain/antagonist/character, who makes her choices and does what she wants? People enjoy male villains who are ruthless and make their choices and do what they want. Why can't there be a female villain who does just that?

Furthermore, why does she have to be initially in love with her husband that she never chose or try to be a good wife to him, or wonder "if they ever had a chance"? (Unpopular opinion: I always disliked that Cersei/Robert scene because I found it OOC for her and incongruous with the rest of their interactions in the show, not just the book.) What's D&D's obsession with making every female character try to be a good wife/try to "give a chance" to a bad marriage (even if they don't in the book)? Why is that required to make a character more "likable"? Why change the abortion to stillbirth - to make her more 'likable' in the eyes of the anti-abortionists? I guess we should be relieved that they didn't make her relationship with Jaime all about Jaime raping her, in order for her to be more 'likable' to the moral brigade viewers! :rolleyes:

Your views on Cersei are similar to mine. Unfortunately, plenty of people don't seem to get that a character can be both a victim and a villain. There are monsters like Ramsay and the Mountain who are worse than Cersei is, and there are characters like Jaime and the Hound in the other end. She probably fits somewhere in between along with Littlefinger, Stannis and Mel but not in the same level. I also dislike it when people say that her portrayal in the books is sexist simply because she isn't as sympathetic as her show counterpart. Where does this come from? As if having a nasty female character is an injustice when there are plenty of male characters far worse and even less developed.

I think what makes Cersei's arc an interesting read is how irrational she is. Her nastiness wasn't what made her actions frustrating for me, nor was her ambition. Being ambitious isn't a bad thing for any person, nor was it presented in a bad light in the story as seen through characters like Dany, Asha, etc. It was her irrationality and fears which led her to do things which hurt not only others but herself. I saw it in the beginning when Lady was executed. While I understand a mother's wanting punishment on behalf of her son, they didn't even get the right direwolf. The one who bit Joff was still out there, forming her own pack and presumably biting anyone she pleased. But Cersei acted like Lady's death was a small victory when logically, she ought to have been angry that the real culprit got away.

Later, she got paranoid that the Tyrells were out to usurp her family but forming alliances through marriage was a way of life in Westeros , even Tywin knew and valued its importance. As a woman, the only way to prevent this is to change the system (which I presume is what Dany is trying to do), but Cersei's method was to remove any queen her sons married and thereby lose whatever allies her family had. When Joffrey was poisoned, she thought Tyrion was to blame (when it wasn't- why would he be stupid enough to commit regicide at the very gathering where he was mocked by the king, not to mention the exact moment when he held the poisoned cup?) When Tywin was killed later on she thought it was the Tyrells (never mind that she was shown the exact passageway and cubby hole that only a certain person of short stature who just escaped could fit in- but, no it's the Tyrells!) Later, at a meeting when they are finally discussing someone she ought to be paranoid about (Dany and the dragons) she's not paying attention and only thinks to eliminate Margaery.

That's what's frustrating and fascinating about her character arc- her lack of logic. I actually like show Cersei and don't mind how they softened her up but they seem to have gone overboard in making her a victim with this latest episode- hopefully they're not going to make her descent a simple result of being Jaime's victim. It's way too simple.

It's not like they only do it with Cersei, who is a villain - they've systematically stripped Sansa of even those moments of agency and stuff she actively does that she has in the books.

That's, of course, if the rape is supposed to make the viewers sorry for Cersei. Maybe they wanted us to think that she "deserved" it, which is even worse. OK, maybe it's unfair to accuse them of that. But it sucks when you have to choose between two sexist explanations.

I feel that the show runners have good intentions but the results are sometimes lacking and not thought about enough. They present Tyrion as too much of a good guy where all the scenes which are supposed to focus on other characters become about him. Like when Sansa finds out about her family's murder at the RW it was supposed to have been about her but something about how they filmed it made it seem like Tyrion was the victim, he got hurt by Tywin and now Sansa turns away from him. Then now we have this scene with Cersei and Jaime's characterization is affected. The thing is that I find all these characters fascinating but I wish the treatment were equal. Cersei and Tyrions actors may get top billing but we are talking about an endgame in GoT and plenty of other character have important things going on in their own arcs that get stripped away.

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I can't believe I forgot to mention Rhaegar in my post since that is such a key factor in how she feels about Robert.

Also, the show really lays the whole "at least she loves her children" thing on thick. I think that she did love (or as close as she comes to doing that) and favor Joffrey because he was a great little psycho in the making but when it comes to Myrcella and Tommen they seem an afterthought and at times she really looks down on Tommen and his lacking of the same "qualities" that Joffrey had. I'm sure she cares for them more than any of the other people in the world but I wouldn't call it some great motherly love. I do not believe she is capable of that.

The show focuses too much on Cersei as fiercely protective mother in my opinion. I agree that book Cersei loves her children in her own fucked-up way as well, but this was just one aspect of her character. I'd wish they would have included more of her ambitious nature and how she uses her sexuality and looks to manipulate men. She is not that much of a temptress in the show. Using her beauty is her way to play the game, this is why her losing her looks is part of her downward spiral. I find book Cersei much more interesting and enjoyable as a villain than her more likeable counterpart on the show. Cersei, if portrayed according to the books has the potential to become a strong, iconic female villain, there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion, and no need to whitewash her and portray her as more sympathetic. I agree with digifemme, a character can both be a victim and be a villain.

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I honestly relate with book!Cersei more because she's furious and restless, the whole depressed/cold queen doesn't work for me. The only times I felt Cersei resembled the Cersei I love was during Blackwater and during the PW, which is unsurprising as grrm was writing, and you can usually tell it's him because she becomes alive when he writes her.



I believe they changed her because they think it's easier to sympathise with a sexually repressed woman loving her children, than with a highly sexual, power hungry temptress. I don't think that the way she uses sex makes her story any less tragic than they're trying to portray in the show, if anything, it's even more compelling. I hope now they're done with victimising her they can unleash her. There's a bit in the trailers in which she says something about "the things I'll do for this family", and I hope that's a sign we're going to see her having some agency, finally.


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