Painting Cersei as the "Victim" (Book Spoilers)

[jaimecersei]

I honestly relate with book!Cersei more because she's furious and restless, the whole depressed/cold queen doesn't work for me. The only times I felt Cersei resembled the Cersei I love was during Blackwater and during the PW, which is unsurprising as grrm was writing, and you can usually tell it's him because she becomes alive when he writes her.

I believe they changed her because they think it's easier to sympathise with a sexually repressed woman loving his children, than with a highly sexual, power hungry temptress. I don't think that the way she uses sex makes her story any less tragic than they're trying to portray in the show, if anything, it's even more compelling. I hope now they're done with victimising her they can unleash her. There's a bit in the trailers in which she says something about "the things I'll do for this family", and I hope that's a sign we're going to see her having some agency, finally.

i completely agree

[jaimecersei]

the thing that bother me MOST about the whole spectacle is that alex graves and nikolaj DO NOT think that was rape???? wtf??

[six]

the thing that bother me MOST about the whole spectacle is that alex graves and nikolaj DO NOT think that was rape???? wtf??

Tbh I wouldn't take it out on them. They didn't handle it very well that is true, but it's hard for directors and actors to go against the people employing them. d&d basically left them to take the brunt of it and threw them under the bus, while they refused to answer any question. It's their show, they wrote the scene, and I'm pretty sure everything has to be approved by them before going on air.

[jaimecersei]

Tbh I wouldn't take it out on them. They didn't handle it very well that is true, but it's hard for directors and actors to go against the people employing them. d&d basically left them to take the brunt of it and threw them under the bus, while they refused to answer any question. It's their show, they wrote the scene, and I'm pretty sure everything has to be approved by them before going on air.

oh i'm mad at D&D as well......... but that scene was definitely a rape on the show. and nikolaj saying it was both "rape and not rape" and alex graves saying stupid shit like "it becomes consensual at the end" is some really dangerous promotion of rape culture essentially and there have already been many articles online rightfully flaming both nikolaj and alex rightfully for doing so.

I HATE what they did with that scene on the show. I don't want anyone to get raped and I don't like that tv!jaime is a rapist but if you added a rape scene on the show, then OWN up to it. saying that it isn't rape is just fucked up and gross.

[Beric175]

No meant no in tthe book too and jaime forced himself on her regardless and I feel like people excuse her coming around an consengting afterwards as an excuse foer his behavior when it has no bearing on his intent. he still wanted to have sex regardless. robert has not been able to rape her on the show so they needed to introduce that element in th absence of inner monologue and flashbacks and the only guy to do it at this stage is jaime because lancel has apparently been eaten by a dragon. She never tells anyone about it in the books so they need to introduce that element somehow and it makes more sense or her to want to emulate Jaime than Robert.

[Daske]

Why can't she be a monster and a victim? It's not like you have to be just one or the other. Pretty sure the writers would be accused of simplifying and dumbing down the character if the book & show portrayals were reversed.

[Whipsy]

Why can't she be a monster and a victim? It's not like you have to be just one or the other. Pretty sure the writers would be accused of simplifying and dumbing down the character if the book & show portrayals were reversed.

For me, it's not about not showing that villains have tragic things happen to them too. No human being escapes that regardless of moral standing. It's about the fact that they're taking a lot of her villainous qualities and downplaying them or giving them to someone else. Yes, it's great to see a little bit of a victim in your villain to give them depth, but not to the point where the victim aspect overshadows the villainous one

[jaimecersei]

Why can't she be a monster and a victim? It's not like you have to be just one or the other. Pretty sure the writers would be accused of simplifying and dumbing down the character if the book & show portrayals were reversed.

cersei is BOTH a victim and villain in the books too. but jaime raping her destroys the very core of her character. show!cersei and book!cersei are completely different characters at this point. i think show!cersei is a great character to an extent in her own right but she is NOWHERE NEAR as complex or fascinating as book!cersei imo. the fact that people find her more complex is truly baffling to me. cersei lannister is not meant to relatable, and thats a GOOD thing because she's just so much more interesting that way

[jabulaniman]

The thing that bugs me about the show's portrayal of Cersei is that by stripping her nastier behaviors, they've also stripped a lot of her agency -- her ability and willingness to try to be a real force and make things go her way. Yes, this works out badly in the books because she's not a good person and she's not all that bright, but at least she's a mover and shaker. Show!Cersei is far more passive and wounded and generally weaker.

This is no insult to LH who I enjoy, but just to the portrayal of Cersei as some kind of victim. In the book, Cersei was apparently born a psychopath who killed her playmate at age 10 years old because she didn't like her playmate crushing on her brother....that is not a sympathetic person. But women can be evil psychopaths too, why not? A world that has Gregor Clegane and Ramsay Snow has room for Cersei Lannister as well. Is the idea that women can't be powerful and evil or something?

The same thing goes for Shae. In the book she's a scheming golddigger without loyalty. Women like that exist, so why shouldn't Shae be one of them?

I'm trying hard here to find a single portrayal in the show of a woman who's just a bad person, and I'm failing. It kind of feels to me like what they call "positive sexism", which is the habit some men have of restricting women's choices on the grounds that women are "pure and noble creatures who must be protected from all the evils of the world because they are inherently better beings than men." That's hogwash. Women aren't better than -- or worse than -- men. They have, or should have, all the choices of behavior and personality that men have, including the bad ones.

Cersei in the book was a woman who decided she wasn't going to have Robert's kids, and she took action to make sure that didn't happen. Show!Cersei apparently tried to be a good wife but was blocked in this by Robert's inability to love any woman who wasn't Lyanna. Cersei in the book was a woman who slaughtered the children of other women because her husband had cheated on her with them -- she wanted revenge and by God she got it, even if innocents died. Book Cersei is evil and she is active. Show Cersei is just kind of ...sigh...passive and pathetic.

This this and again this. I love GoT the show as much as the books, but I have to agree with you 100%. Even the Lena Headey bit, when you watch her interviews you can really tell she knows her stuff (atleast showCersei). In regards to the adaptations/euphorisms of female characters in the show, I guess that's on D&D. Although I did also find the idea of the easier and clearer evolutions of characters as a reason interesting and somethig to keep in mind before critisizing to much.

[Daske]

cersei is BOTH a victim and villain in the books too. but jaime raping her destroys the very core of her character. show!cersei and book!cersei are completely different characters at this point. i think show!cersei is a great character to an extent in her own right but she is NOWHERE NEAR as complex or fascinating as book!cersei imo. the fact that people find her more complex is truly baffling to me. cersei lannister is not meant to relatable, and thats a GOOD thing because she's just so much more interesting that way

She asked Jaime to kill her brother just seconds beforehand and we had her acting abominably at the wedding for all of the episode before that. She has been a monster since Day 1 when she had Lady killed. Nothing that has happened to her will change the fact that she remains a vile human being by most viewers' standards unless they have somehow had their memories wiped in the meantime!

[jaimecersei]

She asked Jaime to kill her brother just seconds beforehand and we had her acting abominably at the wedding for all of the episode before that. She has been a monster since Day 1 when she had Lady killed. Nothing that has happened to her will change the fact that she remains a vile human being by most viewers' standards unless they have somehow had their memories wiped in the meantime!

um ok?? i'm well aware that show!cersei is a terrible person. i'm just saying that i don't like how she was raped by jaime. its character assassination for both jaime and cersei imo

[7th-key]

the thing that bother me MOST about the whole spectacle is that alex graves and nikolaj DO NOT think that was rape???? wtf??

Actors don't always see the final product or follow much of what happens in the editing room. For as much as we know they did their scene months ago, their job done, and may not even realize the final version has deviated much from the outcome it was supposed during filming. That's just giving them the benefit of the doubt.

The director, on the other hand, have control of the scene and should know what they are depicting.

The outcome of the scene could be changed in part by adding a redub of LH voicing a few "Yes, Jaime, take me" when Cersei and Jaime are going down.

(though it won't change the fact that it's a badly lit and somewhat missing the impact such a scene should have. Had it been more sexual it would have augmented the discomfort about to the location and situation, in the proper way, instead of falling into the lazy device of sexual violence)

[Annara Snow]

Pretty sure the writers would be accused of simplifying and dumbing down the character if the book & show portrayals were reversed.

They are simplifying and dumbing down the character.

I already said it in my first post - I hate it when people say that show!Cersei is more complex than book!Cersei or that book!Cersei is one-dimensional. No and no. Book!Cersei is really interesting, a monster and a victim. Show!Cersei is occasionally like the book!Cersei, but the rest of the time, when D&D decide to depart from the book and make her supposedly more "likable", she's just a woman who loves her children, whines a lot and does nothing.

[Whipsy]

They are simplifying and dumbing down the character.

I already said it in my first post - I hate it when people say that show!Cersei is more complex than book!Cersei or that book!Cersei is one-dimensional. No and no. Book!Cersei is really interesting, a monster and a victim. Show!Cersei is occasionally like the book!Cersei, but the rest of the time, when D&D decide to depart from the book and make her supposedly more "likable", she's just a woman who loves her children, whines a lot and does nothing.

You. You're awesome. I love your mouth words. Keep doing what you're doing. That is all.

[Daske]

They are simplifying and dumbing down the character.

I already said it in my first post - I hate it when people say that show!Cersei is more complex than book!Cersei or that book!Cersei is one-dimensional. No and no. Book!Cersei is really interesting, a monster and a victim. Show!Cersei is occasionally like the book!Cersei, but the rest of the time, when D&D decide to depart from the book and make her supposedly more "likable", she's just a woman who loves her children, whines a lot and does nothing.

OK, well we can disagree. I don't think they have done much at all to make her 'likeable'. They may have humanised her by showing her feelings occassionally, but I think it's clear she is a monster in the show, she just doesn't have to be shown doing something evil every scene.

[Angmar]

gf

[Mad Monkey]

OK, well we can disagree. I don't think they have done much at all to make her 'likeable'. They may have humanised her by showing her feelings occassionally, but I think it's clear she is a monster in the show, she just doesn't have to be shown doing something evil every scene.

[six]

She asked Jaime to kill her brother just seconds beforehand and we had her acting abominably at the wedding for all of the episode before that. She has been a monster since Day 1 when she had Lady killed. Nothing that has happened to her will change the fact that she remains a vile human being by most viewers' standards unless they have somehow had their memories wiped in the meantime!

She just lost her son, and she thinks Tyrion did it. It's hardly being a bitch, it's being human and emotional. Imo, the departures for Cersei's character have gone progressively worse, to the point all of her agency has been stripped away. Other than killing Lady and the Shae thing, she didn't do anything remotely bad. Or did anything at all, actually. Seriously, what's the last thing she's done before being mean to everyone at the PW (I thought those scenes were good, especially the Pycelle one)?

And now I read something about Cersei trying to seduce Jaime or sleeping with him after he raped her and I'm just... It's even more offensive than the rape itself, to even suggest she would entertain the idea. A part of me hoped for a moment that they would use the rape to alienate her some more and finally unleash her, but this doesn't sound like it. It's just sad. Can we not have her kick him in the balls? Because I would very much enjoy that.

[jaimecersei]

She just lost her son, and she thinks Tyrion did it. It's hardly being a bitch, it's being human and emotional. Imo, the departures for Cersei's character have gone progressively worse, to the point all of her agency has been stripped away. Other than killing Lady and the Shae thing, she didn't do anything remotely bad. Or did anything at all, actually. Seriously, what's the last thing she's done before being mean to everyone at the PW (I thought those scenes were good, especially the Pycelle one)?

And now I read something about Cersei trying to seduce Jaime or sleeping with him after he raped her and I'm just... It's even more offensive than the rape itself, to even suggest she would entertain the idea. A part of me hoped for a moment that they would use the rape to alienate her some more and finally unleash her, but this doesn't sound like it. It's just sad. Can we not have her kick him in the balls? Because I would very much enjoy that.

i really want her to slap jaime hard across the face tbh

[Daske]

She just lost her son, and she thinks Tyrion did it. It's hardly being a bitch, it's being human and emotional. Imo, the departures for Cersei's character have gone progressively worse, to the point all of her agency has been stripped away. Other than killing Lady and the Shae thing, she didn't do anything remotely bad. Or did anything at all, actually. Seriously, what's the last thing she's done before being mean to everyone at the PW (I thought those scenes were good, especially the Pycelle one)?

And now I read something about Cersei trying to seduce Jaime or sleeping with him after he raped her and I'm just... It's even more offensive than the rape itself, to even suggest she would entertain the idea. A part of me hoped for a moment that they would use the rape to alienate her some more and finally unleash her, but this doesn't sound like it. It's just sad. Can we not have her kick him in the balls? Because I would very much enjoy that.

I think everyone would like to kick Jaime in the balls. And even Cersei might even get a cheer from fans if she did it.

But wanting your brother to kill your other brother (who you know loves him dearly) isn't an evil act? And without even having any evidence? That's way beyond being human/emotional. It's plain horrible.

As well as ordering Lady killed she's been tormenting Sansa since the begining and slags off Tyrion at every opportunity and wishes him dead even before Joffrey died. She almost certainly killed her husband. And she has no problem with her son torturing and killing people. Plus she gives all wedding leftovers to the dogs rather than the starving poor just because she wants to trump Marg, who I seem to remember Cersei also delivered a thinly veiled threat of murder a little while back! And she's going to have a big hand in whatever nasty way the Shae plot plays out.

I just don't see where in all this they have shown anything likeable about her at all. Except that one time where she almost mercy kills her son! Given that is the nicest thiing she has done for anyone, I think it sums her up perfectly!

My thought on the rape is that they messed up the scene. They meant to show it as consentual at the end (I think the quotes by some involved thought they had), but it wasn't clear at all. And it took a second viewing for me to realise she was saying 'it's not right' meaning doing it in the sept by the body rather than the whole thing. It's hard to argue it's still not rape given how he basically gave her no choice whatsoever, but I think there is difference enough if they had shown it how they thought they had that it does change how their dynamic could be handled afterwards. It was still a very badly judged scene regardless.