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Roose Bolton is dead and there's a FM inside of Winterfell


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Hey all,



Been trying to elucidate what the pink letter means, and I think it's rather significant



Evidence: the letter left the rookery and got to castle black. Operating under the assumption that Roose has complete control of WF correspondence and the unwavering loyalty of his maesters, I conclude (using Occam's razor) that likelihood that Roose is dead is far greater than the likelihood of Ramsay getting that letter out of WF with Roose alive. Further, I postulate that Roose was killed in the immediate aftermath of the Hosteen/Wyman debacle in the great hall. With all the hussle and bussle going on, the opportunity was ripe.



Evidence: The men killed around WF in the chapters leading up to the "Theon" chapter were killed sans blades. Broken necks, etc. So Theon's alter ego is removed as a possibility: only a fool would believe that Martin would go down that oft-trod road. Those murders remind me of the ghost of Harrenhall-Jacqen. Men killed in strange ways without any witnesses or legitimate suspects. Many have surmized that Mance is behind such killings and may even be the hooded man. I used to think that Harwin was the hooded man or even Blackfish. But the latest episode put it into perspective: the Iron bank draws little distinction....


I believe it is far more likely that the iron bank has sent a faceless man into WF as a spy/informant/operator before Tycho even came to Eastwatch, maybe even before-or directly after-Cercei rebuffed the IB agent in KL . I think that Jon gave enough info to Tycho for him to conclude that Stannis would be their new man in Westeros and somehow got the info to his FM inside, who promptly went to work.



Also, anybody else jazzed about the gravedigger(Sandor)/robert strong(unGregor) showdown in Cersei's upcoming trial?



Cheers


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There is going to be no Sandor/Gregor showdown in Cersei's trial. If it happens, it will happen elsewhere.

This is because Sandor will never *prosecute* for the Faith. This is not what the Quiet Brothers of Quiet Isle are about: it is *their* version of the Faith that Sandor, if still alive, is working as the lame gravedigger for.

The High Septon is a Faith Militant man. A prosecutor, a persecutor, an evangelist, an inquisitor, NOT a defender. His version of the Faith is so different from the Quiet Isle that it is difficult to imagine they are actually the same religion: one might as well compare the 14th-century Spanish Inquisition to the 20th-century Church of England.

The Faith Militant will find another champion, who will lose - my best guess is Lancel. Margaery is opting for trial by court and evidence, not combat, and so there will be no fight on her behalf: Sandor, if alive, will not come to King's Landing to prosecute Cersei.

If anything digs him out of retirement, it will be the *defence of an innocent*, possibly Sansa (followed by disillusionment when he finds that she is no longer so innocent...?), or a fight against his brother. But if the fight against his brother is in a trial by combat, it will be in a trial where Sandor is fighting for the defence, not for the prosecution, and it will not be for the High Septon.

In the meantime: If anybody has killed Roose in Winterfell, I suspect Ramsay himself, after one "I raped your mother" too many. Most of the killings were probably done by either Mance or his women - though NOT the murder of Little Walder, for which I suspect Manderly's men: the women disavow the killing, implying that there are other killings in there that they *have* done.

One thing the murders will NOT have been done by, is a Faceless Man, because the characteristic of Faceless Men is that they don't do collateral damage: these dead people, Little Walder included, are not sufficiently important to be primary targets, and Faceless Men do not take out random guards and squires. A Faceless Man would take out NOBODY except Roose and/or Ramsay.

The Hooded Man's identity is still a mystery to me. A survivor of the Sack would seem the most likely person (some people have suggested Septon Chayle may have survived being thrown in the well), although someone who had previously been to Winterfell would be a possible option, and Mance Rayder himself could have more than one disguise. The Hooded Man as Abel the Bard seems a possibility. If it's a Faceless Man, he has not struck yet at all.

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So I can't help wondering if the FM were contracted to put out a hit on Roose or Ramsey then why do the FM subsequently impersonate Roose as lord of Winterfell? What is the point of killing Roose if nobody knows he is dead? Why would Stannis be devoting so much of his loan from the Iron Bank to gathering forces if the Iron Bank offer assassinations as part of the package? If he hasn't agreed to the assassination he isn't liable to pay for it, so the iron Bank are actually going out of their way to save him money? Not to mention that the iron Bank, while being from Braavos, has no established history of cooperation with the Faceless Men. We only know for a fact they have geography in common, not similar goals. In fact the FM seem to be entirely apolitical, while the Iron Bank has accrued its power because of its political manouevring. From the Iron Banks POV, their dream scenario is to have a long, drawn-out and expensive conflict which the person who owes them the most money ends up winning. They aren't doing this for the good of the realm.


Also if a Sandor-Gregor showdown happened in the trial I'd be gutted. Firstly because it wouldn't make any sense (for the reasons posted above) and secondly because even if Sandor did get revenge, what revenge is there to be had over an undead monster who doesn't even have a head?


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Sounds far-fetched. If someone (most likely in the North) wants Roose Bolton dead so badly, they're likely to carry out the sentence themselves. If someone else wants him dead, they'd be better off just waiting for either Stannis or one of the other Northern lords (or even Ramsay) to do it. Roose is cursed by the gods, stuck in a half-completed castle surrounded by normal assassins inside the walls and an angry Stannis outside the walls. Hell, Fat Walda might accidentally crush his pelvis while lovemaking. An FM would be overkill.


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Not to mention that the iron Bank, while being from Braavos, has no established history of cooperation with the Faceless Men. We only know for a fact they have geography in common, not similar goals. In fact the FM seem to be entirely apolitical, while the Iron Bank has accrued its power because of its political manouevring. From the Iron Banks POV, their dream scenario is to have a long, drawn-out and expensive conflict which the person who owes them the most money ends up winning. They aren't doing this for the good of the realm.

Of course they don't do that for the good of the realm but they surely know that you can't ride a dead horse. It seems that the Iron Throne has already enough debts. Too much debts will crush the realm and so the deal.

Back to no-cooperation. It seems very unlikely that two such powerful operations in a very special city can establish without having any common history. Maybe the FM are what they seems to be, an order of religious fanatics nihilists :ack: . But they could also be the black ops department of the IB. The Iron Bank will have its due.

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The hooded man isn't a FM. He knows/recognizes Theon as a kinslayer, meaning HM is a Northernern and knows Theon was raised with the Stark children.

I still hold out hope it's Howland Reed

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That would be cool to have JH giving the gift to Ramsey " the bastard" at Winterfell while in Braavos Arya becomes Arya Stark and offers the same gift to Roose Bolton.

nope, will never happen. No FM is inside Winterfell, who would have sent them there? which northern lord would travel to Braavos to the House of Black and White just to have the Bastard killed. And just how will Arya deliver the gift to Roose, like you said, she is in Braavos. So will everyone who is saying FM inside Winterfell stop, because they aren't. that is dumb. and if the hooded man is Howland Reed that would also be pointless, he needs to be found by Jon Snow, not by Theon Greyjoy. Roose was killed by Ramsey, that is why ramsey sent the letter trying to goad Jon Snow into marching, in a endless blizzard, to Winterfell. As to the hooded man, there is zero hint as to who he is, his lines are all about theon saying nothing about himself. He could be Benjen Stark.

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  • 4 weeks later...

nope, will never happen. No FM is inside Winterfell, who would have sent them there? which northern lord would travel to Braavos to the House of Black and White just to have the Bastard killed. And just how will Arya deliver the gift to Roose, like you said, she is in Braavos. So will everyone who is saying FM inside Winterfell stop, because they aren't. that is dumb. and if the hooded man is Howland Reed that would also be pointless, he needs to be found by Jon Snow, not by Theon Greyjoy. Roose was killed by Ramsey, that is why ramsey sent the letter trying to goad Jon Snow into marching, in a endless blizzard, to Winterfell. As to the hooded man, there is zero hint as to who he is, his lines are all about theon saying nothing about himself. He could be Benjen Stark.

I like how you shoot down the theory of it being a FM or even Howland Reed but then add that it could be Benjen Stark lol I'm not disagreeing with you bc it could be the BlackFish for all we know but you should keep an open mind

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I don't even think he's dead.



Far better for him to be taken hostage than allowed to live. Himself and many Freys including Roose's wife could be traded for the Greatjon and some other Northmen. Although I think he will die somehow eventually in the story; he's dumb as hell after the Red Wedding.


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I am glad to read a theory about FM getting involved in the North.


The ghost in Winterfell chapter was very intriguing, because the victims were very specific people, who could be killed by Theon (he hated little Walder not big Walder), or the Manderlys(Manderly's granddaughter was engaged to little Walder), or of course by the washerwomen.


The way Ramsay tortures people, I have often wondered if someone (like Theon) prays so hard for the gift of death, would the FM know about it?


Will they give the gift to Theon?



The young man whose corpse Arya found in the house of black and white had Westerosi coins in his clothes. Arya assumed he was a bravo, but could he be someone from westeros?



Biggest problem with FM is, anyone can be a faceless man.


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  • 2 weeks later...

Faceless men are $. Roose is the LOrd Paramount of the north. Just below a King. It would take nearly a kings wealth to buy his death. As for Howland Reed, he hasn't left the neck since Bob's rebellion. He is Lord of the neck and his heirs are doing his work for him. Personally I subscribe to the Frey Jealousy/Theon Durden theory. For the deaths in winterfell. As for Roose being dead, it is a possibility, but he was in the same room as the Freys and Manderlys, so a Faceless man would have to kill him and assume his identity while the whole host was in the room. I doubt it


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  • 2 weeks later...

Hey all,

Been trying to elucidate what the pink letter means, and I think it's rather significant

Evidence: the letter left the rookery and got to castle black. Operating under the assumption that Roose has complete control of WF correspondence and the unwavering loyalty of his maesters, I conclude (using Occam's razor) that likelihood that Roose is dead is far greater than the likelihood of Ramsay getting that letter out of WF with Roose alive. Further, I postulate that Roose was killed in the immediate aftermath of the Hosteen/Wyman debacle in the great hall. With all the hussle and bussle going on, the opportunity was ripe.

Evidence: The men killed around WF in the chapters leading up to the "Theon" chapter were killed sans blades. Broken necks, etc. So Theon's alter ego is removed as a possibility: only a fool would believe that Martin would go down that oft-trod road. Those murders remind me of the ghost of Harrenhall-Jacqen. Men killed in strange ways without any witnesses or legitimate suspects. Many have surmized that Mance is behind such killings and may even be the hooded man. I used to think that Harwin was the hooded man or even Blackfish. But the latest episode put it into perspective: the Iron bank draws little distinction....

I believe it is far more likely that the iron bank has sent a faceless man into WF as a spy/informant/operator before Tycho even came to Eastwatch, maybe even before-or directly after-Cercei rebuffed the IB agent in KL . I think that Jon gave enough info to Tycho for him to conclude that Stannis would be their new man in Westeros and somehow got the info to his FM inside, who promptly went to work.

Also, anybody else jazzed about the gravedigger(Sandor)/robert strong(unGregor) showdown in Cersei's upcoming trial?

Cheers

I am lost here why do you think Roose is dead?

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People the hooded man could be:



1. Benjen Stark. He is missing, and he would know all the backstory of the Stark family.


2. Bran warging someone, The possibilities here are limitless.


3. Maester Luwin, reanimated by the tree somehow.


4. The Blackfish. We don't know where he is, and this is a logical place if he came here thinking that there were still Stark kids here, or looking to avenge his sister and her kids.


5. Reanimated Robb. The hood falls back and there's a wolf face. How can he talk? Magic. Why didn't Theon recognize him? It's dark, there's a hood, and his voice sounds different with a wolf face.


6. Any of a number of Karstarks, Umbers, Mormonts, etc...looking to avenge the Starks.


7. Animated skeleton of Ned, magically able to speak with his voice. Not recognized because he's dead and no one would expect to hear his voice.


8. Mance Rayder


9. A Faceless Man---but why?



Each possibility is equally unlikely. That makes this one of the most interesting questions about the books right now.


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