[Book Spoilers] EP404 Discussion

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

lol of course this TRASH show completely ignored that jaime raped cersei last week.

+1 I see what you did there.

Perhaps the OMG-Jaime-raped-Cersei faction was completely wrong about that scene.

Edited April 28, 2014 by hedgeknight001

[Stannis I]

I think we'll never know. Rewatching that episode shows that it was ridiculously difficult for Olenna to do it (even though we know it was her now) when the poison had to go in the cup (during the pie-cutting). I think the director said something like, you won't be able to actually see the poisoning take place, but based on framing and reactions, you should be able to figure it out.

Actually, if you listen carefully when Olenna passes in front of Joffrey, right after getting the poison from Sansa, you can hear a 'clink', as if something is dropped into his chalice.

Another option is when Joffrey places his cup in front of Margaery's seat when they're both standing during the pigeon pie scene. Olenna is right beside.

Or it could be in another hour, offscreen.. it really doesn't matter.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

No, it was rape. The showrunners simply didn't realize that was what they were showing.

Maybe you didn't realize what you were watching.

Anyway the writers' word is law, and they said it wasn't rape. So it wasn't rape. Period.

[Chebyshov]

Actually, if you listen carefully when Olenna passes in front of Joffrey, right after getting the poison from Sansa, you can hear a 'clink', as if something is dropped into his chalice.

Another option is when Joffrey places his cup in front of Margaery's seat when they're both standing during the pigeon pie scene. Olenna is right beside.

Or it could be in another hour, offscreen.. it really doesn't matter.

The "clink" I thought was her dropping it off with Marg (that theory's out the window now), but I thought the Strangler is rather-fast action, so that's why I ruled out that moment.

You're right about the other option, but Olenna is standing at a different table, and would have had to walk a good 10 feet (in front of a guard, no less) to do it. Possible, but not particularly intelligent on her part.

I guess the show probably changed the timing for the poison to take effect, but the logistics of it irk me.

[The Taxman]

Stannis never claims to be King in the North...He's just the King. He tries to offer Jon Winterfell and the Lordship, but Jon is hesistant because the seat isn't his to take and he would have to burn down the Godswood, not to mention he'd be abandoning his NW duties. In the show Stannnis will offer it, Jon will want it but ultimately not take it for the same reasons and then get voted to LC anyways. I'm not sure how this fucked up anything. It makes the decision possibly slightly easier for Jon, but he will still be tempted and ultimately decline for the right reasons.

What do you think the battle of Ice is for? Stannis is trying to reunite the North under his rule... duh?

[Frey Pies]

Even if it was, indeed, rape, it was addressed quite well this episode, and will likely be bought up later on as well.

The relationship between Jaime and Cersei was colder than it has ever been- I bet the events that occurred in the sept played a part in that.

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

How do you think Lady Margery got through to Tommen. Are the Kings Guard working for the Tyrells or is she using the secret passageways Varys knows about?

That's what I thought. When Tommen queried Margaery as she came in, she gave an eye-roll response, "The Kingsguard?" almost smirking as she said it. No way could she have charmed her way past, so it leads me to think she had access to one of the secret passages.

[Alia Atreides]

New here, usually I just lurk and read the other comments and after reading through everyone's interesting in some aspects opinions on last night's episode I would like to add my own as well :).

At first when the hubby and I watched we were like WTF in the whole thing of Jon knowing Bran was alive already, I hold the books in a way scared and for me their changing that hurt Samwell's character at least within the books. But as is being shown for whatever reason's so far things are being changed in someway's small changes, we've not encountered Coldhand's yet nor did Sam vow not to tell Jon that Bran was alive which for me brought even more strength to Samwell in the books to hold back from Jon his brother took a real courage he could of ended his pain but took his vow to not tell more serious.

I am enjoying that I now think of it in hindsight the capture of my Beloved Ghost another change I was not expecting but as I said last night we don't know what Ghost was up to when he was on the other side of the wall and Jon and him were separated, Jon could not feel him at all and he had no idea perhaps he had been captured and ripped apart the Black Brothers who betrayed them all. It would not of been something that could of in a way been told in the books or perhaps it is a foretelling of what is going to happen in WOW. That we will go back and then go forward once again in the timeframe.

I disagree to a point in this whole new Bran/Jon storyline, etc and the Boltons sending in someone to the Wall I am quite curious as to how this will now play out and where it will leave Stannis & the Lord of Light but we still have six more episodes to go to find out.

I loved Sir Pounce simply adorable to have him we need a bit of love in a series so froth with war, betrayal and death.

I think I despise Littleprick even more now as he makes my skin crawl everytime he is near Sansa as he does within the books. I am trying to take it in a way even thought I am a book purist in a lot of series to try and remember that within the books we only have POV of that particular character, and other perceive them and not what their true thoughts are... but I still think even if we ever get a POV of Littleprick it will still be slimy etc. :)

I know a lot has been said of the whole raping etc, But I find the truth in this and not so much disturbing as it being the realities of war or simply being a savage animal at times.

I am really curious to see if they will have any sort of a kissing scene with Margarey and Tommen even thought they aged him up he still is a baby :P. The actor playing him, etc.

I enjoyed the whole thing as well with the White Walkers and remember its magic so yea that is why the baby didn't die of any frostbite before he got to the altar. I think that is about it from me sorry it it is long winded.

[Chebyshov]

Even if it was, indeed, rape, it was addressed quite well this episode, and will likely be bought up later on as well.

The relationship between Jaime and Cersei was colder than it has ever been- I bet the events that occurred in the sept played a part in that.

Agreed. They have a dysfunctional, damaging relationship. None of their scenes have been out of character for either party.

Also. Pretty sure there's no one way for a rape victim to act afterwards. Especially knowing she has no recourse/it would never be acknowledged as rape by anyone around her (and apparently a fair amount of show-watchers :dunno: ).

[rmholt]

If they are betrothed as she says KG would certainly let her in, wouldn't they? Although Blount gave up Tommen pretty fast when threatened in the book so that route is also in character.

Sorry, multiquote fail. This refers to Margaery getting into Tommen's room.

Edited April 28, 2014 by rmholt

[Mark Spiznet]

Looks like Locke is a new recruit...

thats the Bolton spy, who cut Jaime's hand off

[Kylmätkädet]

Something just popped up after i re-watched the episode for the 4th time. there could be Coldhands appearance in the upcoming episode. i assumed there are 3 hints regarding Coldhands:

Locke dialogue with Jon at CB about he chose the wall over losing his hand

Karl says he'll lose his right hand after bitchslapped Bran at Craster's

and the last scene when "Night's King" touched the baby with his right finger (chilling touch/cold hand :laugh: ) or maybe just some coincidence. what do u guys think?

[Stannis I]

The "clink" I thought was her dropping it off with Marg (that theory's out the window now), but I thought the Strangler is rather-fast action, so that's why I ruled out that moment.

You're right about the other option, but Olenna is standing at a different table, and would have had to walk a good 10 feet (in front of a guard, no less) to do it. Possible, but not particularly intelligent on her part.

I guess the show probably changed the timing for the poison to take effect, but the logistics of it irk me.

Well, considering how the kingsguard let two kings, a hand, a high septon and one of their own members die in their watch, aside the fact the Margaery just slipped right through into the king's chambers, I wouldn't be surprised if Olenna just took the cup and slowly dropped the poison inside.... but, I agree with you.

[flyingwind66]

Check your assumptions: maybe it wasn't rape after all, as some commenters were saying.

That was rape, the showrunners thought it looked 'ambiguous' but intent does not always equal perception and they shot so far in the wrong direction on this one that it hit their own ballsacks.

I wonder if George intended for the Others' to be turning their kidnapped children into Others? At this point, I am starving for the next book way more than I want episode 5...

I like that we finally get to see that Sansa is way more aware than she lets on

Margaery and Tommen... it's ok I guess? I don't hate it.

Why is Ghost at Crasters? When are the other Starks going to do some warging? Where is coldhands? Also, why the FUCK hasn't Stannis left for the Wall yet??

Edited April 28, 2014 by flyingwind66

[Chebyshov]

Well, considering how the kingsguard let two kings, a hand, a high septon and one of their own members die in their watch, aside the fact the Margaery just slipped right through into the king's chambers, I wouldn't be surprised if Olenna just took the cup and slowly dropped the poison inside.... but, I agree with you.

Fair enough :lol:...the 7 greatest knights in Westeros are quite a joke as of late.

[rmholt]

Sam didn't "give in", because Bran going beyond the Wall was never meant to be a secret in the show, at least not from Jon.

If Jon weren't in denial he'd realize he knows exactly where Bran is, in the books. So that didn't bug me too much

Stuff going on at Crasters must be a tool for the TV show to execute some book - to - TV problem. It seems horribly wrong so I'm interested to see how they work it back to the written story.

[rmholt]

Sam didn't "give in", because Bran going beyond the Wall was never meant to be a secret in the show, at least not from Jon.

If Jon weren't in denial he'd realize he knows exactly where Bran is, in the books. So that didn't bug me too much

Stuff going on at Crasters must be a tool for the TV show to execute some book - to - TV problem. It seems horribly wrong so I'm interested to see how they work it back to the written story.

[rmholt]

Sam didn't "give in", because Bran going beyond the Wall was never meant to be a secret in the show, at least not from Jon.

If Jon weren't in denial he'd realize he knows exactly where Bran is, in the books. So that didn't bug me too much

Stuff going on at Crasters must be a tool for the TV show to execute some book - to - TV problem. It seems horribly wrong so I'm interested to see how they work it back to the written story.

[briantw]

I have no problem with Arya servinig wine to Tywin, fleshes out both characters, gives an excuse for backstory, streamlines a rather intricate story plot. I get that. It's an addition that wasn't in the books, but it aids the show. Cool, it's very interesting. What they are doing in the North, however, is not just adapting, ommitting, or adding; it's taking material written in the book, setting it aside, and writing radically different and sometimes contradictory scenes. Why does Jon have to know about Bran? Why do the mutineers have ghost? Why does Bran get captured by the mutineers? These are conflicts contrived from thin air to rewrite perfeclty fine plot. They don't adapt book material, add context to a winding plot, simplify story-lines for the screen, or even embelish to spice things up.

They are just changes. They can be delightful to watch and look at (which I can respect) but at this point the writers aren't adapting anymore. They're writing fan-fiction.

So essentially your argument is that you're fine with changes so long as you like them, but god forbid they should change anything in a manner you disapprove of?

I really don't get why this Bran storyline is a big deal. His story was boring as hell in the third and fifth books. Yeah, there was some cool backstory relayed during his chapters, but other than that it's all travelogues, similar to Brienne through most of the fourth book. All the writers are doing is putting him in a situation where he might actually be able to do something interesting for the first time since season two, and where his group is in some legitimate peril.

I also don't really get why the story with Bran in the North is any different than your comparison of Arya meeting Tywin. Both are major departures from the source material designed to make the show more interesting to viewers.

Further, HBO owns the television rights to Game of Thrones. There is no such thing as fan fiction here. This is an officially licensed adaptation. As far as anyone is concerned, this is the official version of the television story. It has its differences from the books, as every adaptation does, but ultimately it seems to still be pretty faithful. Nothing they have changed appears like it will have any impact on the end game. They're just fleshing out the middle to add some excitement in what would otherwise be a boring character arc (Bran travelling for another full season).

Further, Martin's quotes on fan fiction do not apply here, and I honestly don't see how anyone could think that they do. He signed off on this adaptation! He writes an episode a year, and consults with the creators and actors. Just because you don't care for the changes (and believe me, there are changes that I don't like) doesn't mean the story on the show doesn't count.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

What do you think the battle of Ice is for? Stannis is trying to reunite the North under his rule... duh?

Stannis is the King (At least according to him), not the King in the North. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that. He's just rallying the north to fight for him. The Iron Throne is in the south, Kings in the North don't sit the Iron Throne.