[Book Spoilers] EP404 Discussion

[King Walder]

Nah thats a bloke.

And i dont think its reproduction as much as a specific ceremony of turning children into Other-type creatures. Im not sure. But i do know that was not a lady Other.

I thought it was cuz he was scared shitless about whats out there and was like "dude, no wai."

I guess the big question is whether it's the only Other who can do that or if more than one has that ability.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Can someone remind me if Thorne was so hatefull of Jon Snow in the books?

In the show it seems like he hates Snow so much he'd rather do things that are not in the best interest of the Wall, just to get at Jon. He doesn't want him (arguably the best swordsman at the Wall, alongside himself and now Locke) to train recruits because he's a steward. And he'd rather see Jon get killed than keeping one of the best fighters alive. Even going to far as to trying to get Jon's raid at Crasters to fail, risking the lives of Snow and anyone who might join him (considering he'd hoped nobody, or only 1 or 2 or so would) and also risking the lives of everyone at the Wall and in the North.

Hell, it seems like he would rather kill Snow than see him succeed, even if Jon's succes is for the best of the Wall. In 4x2 it seemed like genuine mistrust, now it's just blatant hate.

However, one thing that I did notice was that he did allow him to take Locke. He could have just said: "no, he's not ready to take his vows" to screw with Jon Snow.

Anyone who volunteers to go with Jon is, in Thorne's eyes, someone who will vote for Jon when this crisis is over and it's time to elect a proper Lord Commander. (Thorne is, obviously, assuming they will survive Mance's attack and he might even think Jon is overselling how big it is. He definitely didn't accept that the tribes were as unified as Jon claimed during his court-martial.) The more of them that go on this mission and hopefully don't come back, the fewer votes Jon has come election time even if Jon himself survives.

Thorne lets Locke go because he is already listening to Janos Slynt's advice.

What's funny is that Slynt obviously recognizes Jon Snow as the likely winner of the future LC Election (hence the advice he gives Thorne, and the warning "do you want to end up taking orders from him for the rest of your life?"). Given the way Slynt is, why isn't he trying to suck up to Jon and get on what he seems to think is the winning side?

[Oberyn2cool4Westeros]

I'm surprised - yet glad - that I'm not the only one who actually kind of likes Locke. I guess he's worked his psychopathic charms into unprepared viewers. Well done indeed.

[Snoggs]

I agree with everyone who has said that Bran's arc could have been used to provide more history of Westeros with some wonderful storytelling (KotLT). I'm not thrilled that Jon knows about Bran being alive, but I will see how that plays out (hopefully, with Bran & Co. escaping and not reuniting with Jon - or else what was the point of Bran not going to CB with Sam and Gilly?!). I think it's best if Karl says he killed the lot of them, and Jon is once again ignorant of Bran's continued existence...

I am honestly not sure what would be worse, a great reunion or another ships that passed in the night scenario. The mind boggles.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Regardless, I did thoroughly enjoy the first true glimpses of Janos Slynt: Ambitious Shit-Stirrer, and look forward to more of him weaseling his way as high up as he can go.

[Snoggs]

Totally agree...

This is all unecessary when there is quite literally an overabundance of source material to work with. Much of which fans are clamoring to see.

EDIT: Sorry lost the original quote

Edited April 29, 2014 by Snoggs

[NightStark]

What's funny is that Slynt obviously recognizes Jon Snow as the likely winner of the future LC Election (hence the advice he gives Thorne, and the warning "do you want to end up taking orders from him for the rest of your life?"). Given the way Slynt is, why isn't he trying to suck up to Jon and get on what he seems to think is the winning side?

Smart move by him really, he recognises that Thorne himself isn't liked so he convicnes Thorne that Jon might be giving him orders soon. He manipulates him into sending the popular candidate away on a dangerous mission with a group of guys loyal to him.

All he has to do is hope Jon and a few of his guys get killed and then he would be the compromise candidate because the rest hate Thorne.

Edited April 29, 2014 by NightStark

[Killer B]

I'm fine with a TWoW reveal, with the Others at the end, if we finally get Coldhands.

Smart move by him really, he recognises that Thorne himself isn't liked so he convicnes Thorne that Jon might be giving him orders soon. He manipulates him into sending the popular candidate away on a dangerous mission with a group of guys loyal to him.

All he has to do is hope Jon and a few of his guys get killed and then he would be the compromise candidate because the rest hate Thorne.

What's weird to me is that by asking him to get volunteers they put him into a leadership position. If they had just ordered it, and sent some other people, the men looking to Jon as a leader wouldn't have happened. I actually thought it was a big mistake for their side.

Yeah he could die but if he comes back triumphant and the men already follow him? Very bad.

Edited April 29, 2014 by mujeresliebres

[NightStark]

I'm fine with a WW reveal, with the Others at the end, if we finally get Coldhands.

What's weird to me is that by asking him to get volunteers they put him into a leadership position. If they had just ordered it, and sent some other people, the men looking to Jon as a leader wouldn't have happened. I actually thought it was a big mistake for their side.

Yeah he could die but if he comes back triumphant and the men already follow him? Very bad.

Jon's stock is pretty high anyway, having lived with the wildings, climbed the Wall but still staying loyal to the Watch and returning vital info to them. He would probably be elected even as it stands so they've nothing to lose by sending him out but everything to gain.

[Petyr Patter]

What's funny is that Slynt obviously recognizes Jon Snow as the likely winner of the future LC Election (hence the advice he gives Thorne, and the warning "do you want to end up taking orders from him for the rest of your life?"). Given the way Slynt is, why isn't he trying to suck up to Jon and get on what he seems to think is the winning side?

He might just have enough foresight to realize his role in Eddard's death would forever be a wedge between the two of them.

[Robbie Hood]

Locke seems to me like an opportunistic and likeable fellow, I see him much like an educated Bronn. He's switched sides once already right? I'd like to see him become an ally to Jon, unfortunately this seems unlikely as there's no motive or gain.

[Killer B]

Jon's stock is pretty high anyway, having lived with the wildings, climbed the Wall but still staying loyal to the Watch and returning vital info to them. He would probably be elected even as it stands so they've nothing to lose by sending him out but everything to gain.

I'm not convinced they had nothing to lose because Jon would automatically win. Most of the men in the hall didn't stand up to go with him, and of course book reader me knows there are a bunch of men in the Watch who know nothing of Jon Snow.

They've given him the chance to demonstrate his competency in a leadership position. Coming back to warn of the wildlings, isn't command, it was what a good scout would do. He might be well liked, but I think plenty of the men would still consider him far too young to replace Jeor Mormont.

I think the show is bungling the politics because they need to have their main characters do something.

[Killer B]

Locke seems to me like an opportunistic and likeable fellow, I see him much like an educated Bronn. He's switched sides once already right? I'd like to see him become an ally to Jon, unfortunately this seems unlikely as there's no motive or gain.

Which side has he switched from? I thought he was serving Roose Bolton the whole time, including now.

[Colonel Green]

The talk in this episode about Jon's leadership potential, etc. makes me think we will see an LC election this season, and that it will be presented as a fait accompli.

[Killer B]

The talk in this episode about Jon's leadership potential, etc. makes me think we will see an LC election this season, and that it will be presented as a fait accompli.

Well that will be sad. I love Sam actually having an active role and training the ravens.

An another note, does anyone else think, "I will answer injustice with justice" is a painfully terrible line?

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

I'm with that program: that Craster and probably Val have "other" blood from the Night's King.

Welcome, and the appearance of the NK was weird. He's supposed to be half-human, so I don't get the horns.

The series needs CH, I agree... an essential character to bridge the worlds of human and Other.

Golem is a great way to explain it!

Also, I'm a huge believer in a hollow/swiss-cheesed Grrmth. If Benjen isn't back in the crypts, Rickon is.

Always wondered if Planetos wasn't something like a dodecahedron, with the Wall acting as a demarkation line for one of the 'edges' of the planet. Each plane and edge of the planet having its own characteristics and whatnot(ie Valyria, Qarth), with underground tunnels that offer quicker routes from say, Winterfell to the Land of Always Winter.

[Colonel Green]

Well that will be sad. I love Sam actually having an active role and training the ravens.

Since the show has Sam back for the battle, there's plenty of room to give him other stuff to do. He could also, for instance, make a speech proposing Jon for lord commander.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

He might just have enough foresight to realize his role in Eddard's death would forever be a wedge between the two of them.

But does Jon know it yet? And how would Jon find out about it unless Slynt admitted it? Tyrion sent him up there for babykillin, not for contributing to Ned's demise. And Sansa isn't getting any ravens off to Jon anytime soon.

Obviously, looking at it from a meta standpoint the Locke character already has the "Jon's Fake Friend (that we know the truth about)" angle covered. But Slynt seems like the sort of dude who would at least try a fake-ass "sorry I was against you in that tribunal, no hard feelings eh? Yeah, maybe I can help you out, I'm a useful friend to have" after seeing Jon's potential political power. Not that I'd see it working

Now of course in the books Jon DOES know, because he thinks about it before cutting Slynt's head off, but I can't remember how he finds out. I always assumed Slynt talked shit to Jon about it when he and Thorne are trying to find a way to get rid of Jon. Or bragged about it to Thorne where Jon could hear once he figured out how much Thorne enjoyed that whole episode.

I guess that's it, then, Slynt recognizes he's picked one side and closed off the other. I guess I just want to see Slynt try to slimeball his way into Jon's good graces and for Jon to tell him to GTFO. :)

[Cold Hands warm heart]

I looked afew times and The Other, some are saying is Nights King, seems to be wearing rubber surgical gloves when he first picked up the baby boy. Just a little off....

Edited April 29, 2014 by Cold Hands warm heart

[Petyr Patter]

But does Jon know it yet? And how would Jon find out about it unless Slynt admitted it? Tyrion sent him up there for babykillin, not for contributing to Ned's demise. And Sansa isn't getting any ravens off to Jon anytime soon.

...

Now of course in the books Jon DOES know, because he thinks about it before cutting Slynt's head off, but I can't remember how he finds out. I always assumed Slynt talked shit to Jon about it when he and Thorne are trying to find a way to get rid of Jon. Or bragged about it to Thorne where Jon could hear once he figured out how much Thorne enjoyed that whole episode.

Yeah, I have no doubt Slynt bragged about his role in capturing the "traitor" Ned Stark. Just like he brags about his time as Commander of the Gold Cloaks and the fact he was Lord of Harrenhall, though he never stepped foot in it.

Really, Janos Slynt is probably not that bright, which made him useful to Littlefinger. Why does the corruption in King's Landing always seem to go back to Littlefinger?