[Book Spoilers] EP404 Discussion

[rmholt]

I'm pretty sure that Mormont (in the show) didn't send Thorne to KL with Flowers' moving hand in a jar, in order to provide proof of the NW's dire need to have assistance from the Iron Throne.

I agree but was Thorne not the guy training men in the show at the beginning? If so why isn't he training the men now?

[briantw]

Can someone remind me why Alliser Thorne isn't training the men?

He's the acting Lord Commander right now.

[Chebyshov]

I agree but was Thorne not the guy training men in the show at the beginning? If so why isn't he training the men now?

Thorne still is...Jon even says "someone has to train them," and Thorne replies "...and that someone is me."

I think Jon and Grenn just had some down time and were trying to help.

[rmholt]

He's the acting Lord Commander right now.

OK that's sort of sensible.

[rmholt]

Thorne still is...Jon even says "someone has to train them," and Thorne replies "...and that someone is me."

I think Jon and Grenn just had some down time and were trying to help.

Actually he says That someone isn't you. I thought Jon's comment that someone had to train them was a dig at Thorne for not doing it. Edited April 29, 2014 by rmholt

[Chebyshov]

Actually he says That someone isn't you. I thought Jon's comment that someone had to train them was a dig at Thorne for not doing it.

Ah, you're right! It probably was meant to be a dig, so I guess briantw's point about acting LC makes sense.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Chebyshov

[rmholt]

I thought Tommens acting was great.

[rmholt]

I thought Tommens acting was great.

[sifth]

Actually the reason it is OK when Martin does it is because he has gone out of his way to actually write believable and meaningful female characters along with this entire story and world. When Martin does it, I give him the benefit of the doubt that he wants to do something important with the story or demonstrate something about the world.

The show writers? Not so much. Not since they've made two consensual sex acts rape.

I agree. I really think those were just Craster's sons. Interestingly HBO had the recap saying the Night King for a while and changed it to the other. I see two options

1) That was the NK and they messed up putting it in the recap. So they immediately took it down.

2) It wasn't the NK and they messed up putting it in the recap. So they immediately took it down.

I lean towards two at the moment just because we saw that there were many other WW dressed the same way. Also I want CH to be the NK.

So in other words you admit to your double standards. GRRM is free to wright cartoonishly evil characters , but once D&D do it, well the series is ruined, lol

[Gargarax]

This ^^ is the purpose is serves. We can sit here and debate all day about the Jaime/Cersei scene. That's a legitimate argument.

The one at Craster's in pretty clear cut. The mutineers are rapists, murderers, thieves, etc. and the show runners want us to HATE them. These pathetic scum who are treating these women this way, as a viewer I want to now see them get obliterated. That's why they had to put it in there. If all we saw is these guys sitting around eating with the women just sitting their quietly, there is no WAY the audience is going to reach the level of hate for these guys as intended. When the questioning of rape in the show is happening we need to separate these instances.

I think just because we saw it very distastefully done last week with Jaime/Cersei people can't separate the context anymore. Now it's just, 'There's a rape scene, showrunners are perverts who just need to hit their nude quota, terribly done'. Clearly, that's not the case in this one particular instance.

That's the problem of the discussion. Nobody says the mutineers should be knitting socks for Craster's wives. Nobodys says we shouldn't see them as rapers. Showing the woman close-up, sweating, breasts dangling in a warm fire light and thereby eroticising the act is something else. Why were they beaten - they didn't seem to resist? Do we only see them as bad guys if the rape is graphic? I liked how Ras was trying to be more tender with his one, trying to kiss her back, stroking her, reaching out for something else than "fucking them til they're dead". Yes, they're bad guys. But are they all? Don't some of them feel that their transgression has spelled doom for them? The books are so great because they avoid black and white characterisation. This scene is one of the most blunt and pointless instances of black and white characterisation. Only the second sons' commander last season was worse. Both cases were some clear cases of pretty bad screenwriting, imo.

[Chebyshov]

That's the problem of the discussion. Nobody says the mutineers should be knitting socks for Craster's wives. Nobodys says we shouldn't see them as rapers. Showing the woman close-up, sweating, breasts dangling in a warm fire light and thereby eroticising the act is something else. Why were they beaten - they didn't seem to resist? Do we only see them as bad guys if the rape is graphic? I liked how Ras was trying to be more tender with his one, trying to kiss her back, stroking her, reaching out for something else than "fucking them til they're dead". Yes, they're bad guys. But are they all? Don't some of them feel that their transgression has spelled doom for them? The books are so great because they avoid black and white characterisation. This scene is one of the most blunt and pointless instances of black and white characterisation. Only the second sons' commander last season was worse. Both cases were some clear cases of pretty bad screenwriting, imo.

:agree:

Also, I still maintain we didn't need much help to reach the conclusion that these are men we should hate. They're mutineers. They chained up Ed and Grenn. This was poor writing.

[sifth]

That's the problem of the discussion. Nobody says the mutineers should be knitting socks for Craster's wives. Nobodys says we shouldn't see them as rapers. Showing the woman close-up, sweating, breasts dangling in a warm fire light and thereby eroticising the act is something else. Why were they beaten - they didn't seem to resist? Do we only see them as bad guys if the rape is graphic? I liked how Ras was trying to be more tender with his one, trying to kiss her back, stroking her, reaching out for something else than "fucking them til they're dead". Yes, they're bad guys. But are they all? Don't some of them feel that their transgression has spelled doom for them? The books are so great because they avoid black and white characterisation. This scene is one of the most blunt and pointless instances of black and white characterisation. Only the second sons' commander last season was worse. Both cases were some clear cases of pretty bad screenwriting, imo.

Yup because The Mountain, The Brave Companions, Joffrey, the Boltons and pretty much every slaver Dany meets are all grey characters.

[Jonathan Aviv]

One thing I definitely do not like are these "filler" scenes and side-storylines they have created to move the story along through the middle episodes of the season. One thing I noticed is that, it is a big deal that all of the stark children are separated, including Jon. From Eddard's death in book one the entire family except catelyn and rob and bran and rickon were seperated. Now all of the children are actually huge numbers of leagues from each other and that type of isolation is what keeps us all interested, because them coming back together, for me at least, will bring resolution to some of the story. It was Ned who said that when winter is coming, the lone wolf dies, and the pack survives. I don't like that bran and jon are going to potentially meet next episode. They should have Bran escape before Jon gets to craster's.

P.S why reveal the white walkers and what they do with the babies so soon?

[Gargarax]

So in other words you admit to your double standards. GRRM is free to wright cartoonishly evil characters , but once D&D do it, well the series is ruined, lol

Two things:

1. Martin includes a lot of depth that the show omits. Percentage-wise, the show has more of those characters and has developed a tendency to favour them. Oberyn's introduction (which I didn't mind so much) is one example. More unnecessary brothel scenes that were not in the book. What was the purpose of those?

2. Martin leaves more to the imagination than the show. There are very few direct, first-hand descriptions of sexual violence. Much is in retrospect, the worst are rumours and hearsay. Sure, TV and film are supposed to "show, don't tell" - but then, you need to reduce the things you show to what furthers the storyline. Often tough, the show adds sex and sexual violence to a scene that didn't have any in the books. Some for good reason. Many for no good reason at all.

[Deadwood]

Brilliant episode. Loved it.

P.S why reveal the white walkers and what they do with the babies so soon?

To drive people nuts? And help people forget about the new sub-plots designed to allow the other portions of the story to catch-up?

[Gargarax]

Yup because The Mountain, The Brave Companions, Joffrey, the Boltons and pretty much every slaver Dany meets are all grey characters.

Any more, though? The Mountain is the only one that really comes to mind. Joffrey is greyer in the books, because there are more hints at his desire to win King Robert's approval and stuff. Also, the fact that he seems naturally evil makes him interesting and gives depth to Cercei's conflicting feelings for him. The slavers and the Boltons on the other hand are products of tradition to a certain extent, and are evil because we reject those traditions. The mutineers had motives for their revolt, some of them were pretty dark guys before, but many were victims of circumstances, so to speak. They weren't sadistic sociopaths before, so it seems bloody likely that the aftermath of the revolt left them with conflicting feelings. Anyway, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. That because Martin has characters that are inherently evil the show isn's suffering from it's increase in black and white characterisation?

[Hangover of the Morning]

I am not saying the scene in Craster's Keep was an easy thing to watch. Not at all. I skipped it on my rewatch of the episode because it is simply too disturbing. But it felt completely in-style with George's writing. He tends to go over the top with the description of violence and it's hard to find a chapter, in which someone is not raped, threatened with rape or someone is not boasting about how they raped somebody. It's just that reading about it is slightly easier than watching it. It's been awhile since I read ASoS so I don't remember the details but Sam's description of what was happening at Craster's after the mutiny was a pretty disturbing read.

The mutineers were mostly rapers and murderers who were forced to join the Watch. I think it portrayed "nicely" how they are basically dead men walking living in the moment: they have no structure, no organisation and no purpose. If they go back to Westeros they're dead, if they leave Craster's and head north they're dead. We see the stage between the "kids thrown into a candy shop" to the "Craster's larder is not infinite and this is the rest of our fucking lives".

I don't see a problem with them keeping Ghost. Direwolf is a rarity, a source of entertainment, and they (or especially Karl) might have though that they could tame him eventually (Jon did why can't they?). A trained direwolf could hunt for them, protect them, intimidate others etc. They probably just fed him scraps or some junk that nobody else would eat anyways.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Hangover of the Morning

[sifth]

Any more, though? The Mountain is the only one that really comes to mind. Joffrey is greyer in the books, because there are more hints at his desire to win King Robert's approval and stuff. Also, the fact that he seems naturally evil makes him interesting and gives depth to Cercei's conflicting feelings for him. The slavers and the Boltons on the other hand are products of tradition to a certain extent, and are evil because we reject those traditions. The mutineers had motives for their revolt, some of them were pretty dark guys before, but many were victims of circumstances, so to speak. They weren't sadistic sociopaths before, so it seems bloody likely that the aftermath of the revolt left them with conflicting feelings. Anyway, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. That because Martin has characters that are inherently evil the show isn's suffering from it's increase in black and white characterisation?

I'm trying to say people have a double standard when it comes to these type of characters. GRRM can have the Mountain, Lurch and the Murmmers be as evil as he likes. Rape, hurt, steal and kill people for fun. Once D&D do it though, well we have a right to bitch because it's not real and the characters aren't grey.

[Gargarax]

I am not saying the scene in Craster's Keep was an easy thing to watch. Not at all. I skipped it on my rewatch of the episode because it is simply too disturbing. But it felt completely in-style with George's writing. He tends to go over the top with the description of violence and it's hard to find a chapter, in which someone is not raped, threatened with rape or someone is not boasting about how they raped somebody. It's just that reading about it is slightly easier than watching it. It's been awhile since I read ASoS so I don't remember the details but Sam's description of what was happening at Craster's after the mutiny was a pretty disturbing read.

The mutineers were mostly rapers and murderers who were forced to join the Watch. I think it portrayed "nicely" how they are basically dead men walking living in the moment: they have no structure, no organisation and no purpose. If they go back to Westeros they're dead, if they leave Craster's and head north they're dead. We see the stage between the "kids thrown into a candy shop" to the "Craster's larder is not infinite and this is the rest of our fucking lives".

Good point, actually. However, the tragedy of that realisation could have exploited further, though. For a moment there, I thought they might make Ras a somewhat tragic character who realised he'd fucked up. Instead: skull, rape, a speech that used f- and c-words so often it started to bore me halfway through - mission accomplished, viewers now understand that these guys are bad. The Apocalypse Now atmosphere was there for a moment, but soon the scene had more a 1950s comic book description of communists that of the totally sublime horror of The Heart of Darkness.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

on one of the HBO sites the other who turns the baby is listed as the "nights king", you can still find this information on reddit as HBO took it down not long after putting it up.

So this is something confirmed? Or is it possible some fan put it online, as a fact, while it actually was his/her own interpretation?