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[Book Spoilers] EP404 Discussion

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I'm sure there will be a little build up, but it is no question but the biggest misuse of a talented actor (Iian Glen) in the entire series. Two seasons of exposition guy, followed by two seasons as an extra. What a waste... If they are inventing story-lines and subplots, why not give one of your top end talents something to do?

Yes, the Lord of the High Cheekbones is being unpardonably wasted.

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The show is going to finish well before the books; there is no point getting upset about what can't be helped.



I liked the episode. The show runners aren't going to not show the Others for the entire series like George does. TV watchers won't put up with that crap like book readers will.



The only scene that I didn't like was Dirk's endless rant about what a badass fighter he is. It reminded me of the Thenn's speech about cannibalism earlier in the season. We get it. They are evil, tough guys. You don't have to lecture us about it for 5 minutes. Watching them rape, murder, and eat people for a few seconds gets the point across.



Someone needs to get Greyworm into a workout program. I'm not saying he has to be big, but the guy doesn't even have muscle tone. The Unsullied slaves are specifically chosen due to their size, strength, and speed. He's just a little, skinny dude.


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It is. It's a story I think most of the children in the north grow up hearing.

Also super unrelated but someone posted R+L=Hodor in the AV Club Review Comments and it made my night. :drunk:

yeah I've read that a few months ago I think. silly...but who knows...anything could be. lol My fave crackpot theory after R+L=JS which is so old now its lost it's novelty, is the one about Howland and what's her name from Dorne being the parents of Meera and Jojen.

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Why had the mutineers gone to the trouble of keeping Ghost alive and caged? Planning on running a zoo, perhaps?

Please tell me: if you found a direwolf (or a very large wolf, for that matter), chained, would your first idea be: "Now, how do I kill this thing?"?.

I think not.

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I'm sure there will be a little build up, but it is no question but the biggest misuse of a talented actor (Iian Glen) in the entire series. Two seasons of exposition guy, followed by two seasons as an extra. What a waste... If they are inventing story-lines and subplots, why not give one of your top end talents something to do?

I almost wouldn't mind if they had at least done the scene where he kissed Dany. I would have chalked a lot of the rest down to lack of time which has affected the rest of the characters. But not a thirty second scene. Why bother having him talk to Barristan to re-establish that he loves Daenerys rather than do the book scene where he actually tries (and most importantly fails) to do something about it. There is no logic to that decision at all.

That and his exile are the two most important Jorah scenes. By far. To cut one of them out for no other reason than laziness or dislike of the character is beyond me. Yes, dragging Tyrion to Meereen is important in terms of the plot but frankly anyone could have done that for any reason. Those are the two most important scenes. Like the hound asking to take Sansa away and him dying by the road with Arya.

Every time Dany thinks about Jorah in ADWD or Jorahs actual actions throughout ADWD, are defined by these two scenes and will continue to be so into Winds of Winter.

No, they won't build it up. Theres way too much going on in terms of the dragons, Danys relationship with Daario and the downward spiral of Danys fortunes. This is going to be a random reveal thats handled over one episode.

Edited by Tyrion1991

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This episode totally lines up with my crackpot theory. I will now enlighten you all:

I’d like to throw a curveball into the discussion about who is Azor Ahai.

First I think the timeline is all wrong. Everyone is discussing fully developed characters that will defeat the Others in the near future. What I think everyone is forgetting is that this particular winter will last for a very long time. Azor Ahai has just been born. Not Dany or Jon, AA is an infant. And the Others will only be defeated at the end of a very long winter (15-20 years).

My crackpot theory is none other than “the little monster”, Gilly’s baby. Don’t believe me? I don’t blame you. But hear me out.

Similar to the Night’s King story, a member of the Night’s Watch, who is a Targaryen sired a son from a Wildling (or female Other a la the Night’s King). There are only two potential candidates, Brynden Rivers or Aemon Targaryen. The mother tries to return her baby to Castle Black but is chased off. She eventually raises the baby, who grows up to be the bastard Craster.

Craster is allowed to live but has vowed to always sacrifice his male heirs to the Others. Why? Because the Others foresee Azor Ahai being born and try to prevent it. The bloodline is preserved because Craster is a monster whose coat of arms should read “Breeding Inwards”.

But seriously Craster’s action mirror the biblical Herod ordering the death of male babies because of a prophecy. There are also parallels of Kronos devouring his sons because he is destined to be overcome by his own sons. FYI from Wikipedia Robert Graves proposed that cronos meant "crow", related to the Ancient Greek word corōnē (κορώνη) "crow", noting that Cronus was depicted with a crow, as were the deities Apollo, Asclepius, Saturn and Bran.While the birth of Gilly’s son can’t exactly be lined up with the waking of dragons, the Others seemed keen to put an end to him. Don’t discount the little guy.

And I still think the timeline is off. At least a decade or more will pass before the novels come to a close. Lots of everyone’s favorite characters will die, in the south to war and disease, in the north to starvation and Others.

I find this quite inspired and really like it. I never gave Gilly's child much afterthought, but when you stop and think about it, he is the only surviving son of Craster, and if a great majority of the others = crasters sons, Gilly's little bundle has a whole lot of brothers that he is naturally directly in contrast to

Very interesting

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Why had the mutineers gone to the trouble of keeping Ghost alive and caged? Planning on running a zoo, perhaps?

Please tell me: if you found a direwolf (or a very large wolf, for that matter), chained, would your first idea be: "Now, how do I kill this thing?"?.

I think not.

The Freys solved the same problem with poor Greywind quite easily. Unless the mutineers have no arrows or spears.

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Why had the mutineers gone to the trouble of keeping Ghost alive and caged? Planning on running a zoo, perhaps?

Please tell me: if you found a direwolf (or a very large wolf, for that matter), chained, would your first idea be: "Now, how do I kill this thing?"?.

I think not.

Because finding a way to cage it safely, waste food feeding it, and hoping it doesn't break free and tear out all their throats makes more sense?

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Yes, the Lord of the High Cheekbones is being unpardonably wasted.

They should have given Jorah more screen time and dropped Daario altogether. At least then we wouldn't have to deal with the awful high school crush Dany has on the latter.

Edited by intheswamp

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OK this was posted in my other (no pun intended) group:

"Gilly was crying. “Me and the babe. Please. I’ll be your wife, like I was Craster’s. Please, ser crow. He’s a boy, just like Nella said he’d be. If you don’t take him, they will.”
“They?” said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed, “They They They”
“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”"- ASOS, Samwell

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The show is going to finish well before the books; there is no point getting upset about what can't be helped.

I liked the episode. The show runners aren't going to not show the Others for the entire series like George does. TV watchers won't put up with that crap like book readers will.

The only scene that I didn't like was Dirk's endless rant about what a badass fighter he is. It reminded me of the Thenn's speech about cannibalism earlier in the season. We get it. They are evil, tough guys. You don't have to lecture us about it for 5 minutes. Watching them rape, murder, and eat people for a few seconds gets the point across.

Someone needs to get Greyworm into a workout program. I'm not saying he has to be big, but the guy doesn't even have muscle tone. The Unsullied slaves are specifically chosen due to their size, strength, and speed. He's just a little, skinny dude.

Unsullied were never and will never be particularly big or strong. They're freaking castrated. Incredibly fit and disciplined maybe, but smaller than a normal man.

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yeah I've read that a few months ago I think. silly...but who knows...anything could be. lol My fave crackpot theory after R+L=JS which is so old now its lost it's novelty, is the one about Howland and what's her name from Dorne being the parents of Meera and Jojen.

LOL no the person who posted R+L=Hodor CLEARLY did it as a joke. R+L=J isn't a crackpot theory, it's the truth. It is known.

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Yeah I am sorry but I find it very, very hard to believe that the Others can't be evil having seen that scene. You could not have conveyed them as more menacing and evil. The Nights King was almost vampiric.


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Deviating from the books in that Sansa is much more vocal and definite in her distrust of Littlefinger.

When you can't pry into the mind of your characters, they need to get more vocal. Basic stuff.

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Yeah I am sorry but I find it very, very hard to believe that the Others can't be evil having seen that scene. You could not have conveyed them as more menacing and evil. The Nights King was almost vampiric.

What's evil about saving a baby? The show's made the Others seem way nicer than the traitorous crows.

Edited by Oberyn2cool4Westeros

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So the Darth Other is the Night's King and he is a part of a group of 13, he was the 13th Lord Commander of the watch.... so... were they all the orignal 13 lord commanders?

Was the wall built by the Others?

Did they wipe out the Children of the forest?

Are the first Men/Starks decended from the Others?

Is being an other a disease that is passed on via touch?

That's an awful big leap to make based on there being twelve blurry background figures.

So: probably not, no, not quite yet, hell no, and apparently sort of.

the night king fell in love with an Other? So are they genderless or is it a gay love story? that would be kind of random. I can not wrap my brain around the difference between the "other's", the "wights" & the "white walkers"

The Others and the White Walkers are the same thing; the show just changed the name because Lost. They are magic ice people who freeze everything around them, and have the power to raise the dead as frozen zombies (aka wights).

At the end of the episode, the Extra Magical Dracula King of the White Walkers turned the baby into a baby white walker. I don't see why people are assuming he's a different species just because he looked a bit different from the other white walkers we've see so far.

They are presumably gendered but incapable of sexual reproduction, and rely on turning infants to slowly grow their numbers.

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