[Book Spoilers] EP404 Discussion

[pleonasm]

It's strange how so many follow along with the idea that, "Well that storyline is boring/dumb in the books, so it's good the TV show changed it." Really?

Adaptions can not and should not ever try to be the visual copies of their literary counterparts, but there are still some things it should try and keep right. Namely not introducing plot that conflicts with canon.

Ommitting for the screen/time is one thing.

Adapting for the screen/time is one thing.

Adding to streamline or clear up something for the screen/time is another thing...but can be justified

But Rewriting is something else entirely.

There is too much rewriting going on in this series.

I have no problem with Arya servinig wine to Tywin, fleshes out both characters, gives an excuse for backstory, streamlines a rather intricate story plot. I get that. It's an addition that wasn't in the books, but it aids the show. Cool, it's very interesting. What they are doing in the North, however, is not just adapting, ommitting, or adding; it's taking material written in the book, setting it aside, and writing radically different and sometimes contradictory scenes. Why does Jon have to know about Bran? Why do the mutineers have ghost? Why does Bran get captured by the mutineers? These are conflicts contrived from thin air to rewrite perfeclty fine plot. They don't adapt book material, add context to a winding plot, simplify story-lines for the screen, or even embelish to spice things up.

They are just changes. They can be delightful to watch and look at (which I can respect) but at this point the writers aren't adapting anymore. They're writing fan-fiction.

"What if the mutineers were left at Crasters, and Bran stumbled upon them and was captured, but Jon was leading a raiding party to kill the mutineers anyway." That is an interesting "what if." It might make for some interesting implications. But it's Fanfiction.

There is no source material that justifies these changes. No precedent, no suggestion. They are just changes.

If that is the level of divergence the showrunners are going to take, I guess that is fine, but it is no longer an adaption. The "crime" then is that this TV'd version of the Ice and Fire universe masquerades as an adaption, freely excercises it's ability to re-write, all while toppling over yet unreleased information.

It's as if they're using the fact that AOIAF exists as a yet unfinished work to justify co-creating within that world. That is a dangerous thing for an adaption to do, try to do, or flirt with doing.

"I am not saying here that the people who write fan fiction are evil or immoral or untrustworthy. The vast majority of them are honest and sincere and passionate about whatever work they chose to base their fictions on, and have only the best of intentions for the original author. But (1) there are always a few, in any group, who are perhaps less wonderful, and (2) this door, once opened, can be very difficult to close again." - George R.R. Martin

I know many people here won't agree with me and say I'm being too dramatic and nitpicky. Maybe I am. But I'm legitmatley concerned the door's been flung wide open. a

It's not fan fiction. Sigh... Bran's ventures North are the television series equivalent of a Mereeneese Knot. Two to three seasons of hiking and sledding is just not going to work in that medium. A rewrite was necessary.

You can quibble with what they come up with it. I do. I think this subplot is fraught with problems (including a lack of originality (more rapers), the trapping of Ghost in a cage, a much too long delay in Mance's advance on the wall (he's cribbing from Danny's invasion of Westeros playbook), etc...), but I don't blame them for wanting to invent something dramatically compelling to occur with their leads.

Personally, I think they should have just placed Bran and company at Castle Black and let the Battle of the Wall occur in episode 6 or something. But it's a choice. All adapters of fiction make them.

This choice is just a shitty one.

Edited April 28, 2014 by pleonasm

[CrypticWeirwood]

"Marrying a Targaryen was all the rage"

Who was Lady O betrothed to?

That would be Egg’s son, the Prince of Dragonflies. Lady O became disillusioned with the betrothal when she learned that the whole “dragons fly” thing was a red herring, so she ended up marrying Luthor instead — who in the end couldn’t fly very well himself, either.

[Le Cygne]

I think those of us objecting have made it clear, it's the way rape is presented that's the problem. We don't have to explain it over and over.

As for the rest of it, this is a story that has appealed to millions, would have been nice to see more of an adaptation of those characters and that story.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Le Cygne

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

Ok, so I officially am done with bitching about the differences in the book and the show. This last episode did a lot of shit that isn't in the books, but..... I like it. I like the Craster's keep addition, I think that's great, and Locke being a faux NW man now is intruiging. Why is ghost captured? Who knows... It damn sure makes it interesting that's for sure.

Oh and nice way to make us like Jaime again guys...

[Onna Lewyys]

I'm really annoyed with this constant response to the valid criticism that the show seems to use rape scenes for sensation. No one here has said " those NW men woldn't rape" They just are annoyed with having to see it on the screen. We saw a guy drinking from Mormont's school while a bruised and battered woman sat next to him. Was anyone at all confused by what these guys were doing? What that ten seconds of "rape them til they're dead" and boobs flapping necessary to the plot? Also, apparently men being raped is something that occurs in this world but for some reason we only see it threatened...wonder why?

People can legitimately be annoyed by the fact that with other things that are cut there always seems to be enough time for the rape scenes so maybe for once one of you guys can stop acting like these people are too stupid to understand the world and give a cognizant argument why that scene added something we didn't already know and understand about the show for once?

This whole post is absolutely spot-on. But the BIB is a particularly excellent point.

[Justin Danford]

It's not fan fiction. Sigh... Bran's ventures North are the television series equivalent of a Mereeneese Knot. Two to three seasons of hiking and sledding is just not going to work in that medium. A rewrite was necessary.

You can quibble with what they come up with it. I do. I think this subplot is fraught with problems (including a lack of originality (more rapers), a much too long delay in Mance's advance on the wall, etc...), but I don't blame them for wanting to invent something dramatically compelling to occur with their leads.

Personally, I think they should have just placed Bran and company at Castle Black and let the Battle of the Wall occur in episode 6 or something. But it's a choice. All adapters of fiction make them.

This choice is just a shitty one.

I find that argument weak. I get you don't want to show kids sledding through the forest. So don't show anything.

With all the material, all the things that need to get cut, all the backstory yet to be told, surely they can but the Bran plot on the backburner and show something more meaningful/extend and better develop some scenes.

You can check in on Bran and Co. every once in a while stumbling on an abandoned or ruined Wildling village/remains. Talk about KotLT, Old Nan's stories about the KW and others. There is more than enough action to go around in the other plot lines to allow Brans to spell it with back story and world building (and that is only if you must show him on screen this regularly).

Fans know he got North, and is going North. We don't see him frequently in the books. We don't need to see him frequently in the show.

There is plently material there. More than enough to avoid, as you say, the "shitty" choices.

[Daendrew]

Apparently Game of Thrones listed the last Other as being The Nights King in the viewers guide.

And then replaced it with just White Walker.

The admin of the A Song of Ice and Fire FB group said he saw it listed as "Nights King".

[smithy]

Looking back at episode 2, Roose didn't even order Locke to KB.

Was there a line of dialog like that?

Locke asked where he might look for the Stark boys, and Theon speculated.

So Prest-O Change-O there is Locke at CB!

He kind of did , here's the main bit of dialogue

Theon - Jon Snow's at castle black

Locke - Who the fucks Jon Snow?

Roose - Their bastard brother , he could be sheltering them , he could know where they are.

Ramsay - Even if he doesn't know he's half Stark himself , could be a threat

So it wouldn't make much sense for Locke to go charging past CB into the North without checking at CB first?

Edited April 28, 2014 by smithy

[The Amethyst Empress]

That white walker in the end looked like an alien :shocked:

[Justin Danford]

That white walker in the end looked like an alien :shocked:

Darth Maul before he got his tan.

Darth Other

[joaozinm]

It's not fan fiction. Sigh... Bran's ventures North are the television series equivalent of a Mereeneese Knot. Two to three seasons of hiking and sledding is just not going to work in that medium. A rewrite was necessary.

You can quibble with what they come up with it. I do. I think this subplot is fraught with problems (including a lack of originality (more rapers), the trapping of Ghost in a cage, a much too long delay in Mance's advance on the wall (he's cribbing from Danny's invasion of Westeros playbook), etc...), but I don't blame them for wanting to invent something dramatically compelling to occur with their leads.

Personally, I think they should have just placed Bran and company at Castle Black and let the Battle of the Wall occur in episode 6 or something. But it's a choice. All adapters of fiction make them.

This choice is just a shitty one.

Only that there is just one thing that could make Bran's plot awesome. COLDHANDS! Wow its a dead man walking and talking... this could explain so many things about the other... There is Bran entering summer and eating human flesh, there is the quest for the black crow. Rewriting wasn't needed and now the north plot is completely fucked up. Jon knows.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

How do we know they aren't just completely changing everything because Martin knows there is no way he is going to finish the books before the series catches up. So why not take it in a completely different direction.

[boojam]

By the by Ciarán Hinds must have some sweetheart contract , I am not even sure he is in the next episode?!

[Justin Danford]

Only that there is just one thing that could make Bran's plot awesome. COLDHANDS! Wow its a dead man walking and talking... this could explain so many things about the other... There is Bran entering summer and eating human flesh, there is the quest for the black crow. Rewriting wasn't needed and now the north plot is completely fucked up. Jon knows.

Exactly.

[~DarkHorse~]

I think those of us objecting have made it clear, it's the way rape is presented that's the problem. We don't have to explain it over and over.

As for the rest of it, this is a story that has appealed to millions, would have been nice to see more of an adaptation of those characters and that story.

I agree

I felt the rape scenes were used to fill in the boobs quota as opposed to showing the horror these woman are enduring.

Edited April 28, 2014 by ~DarkHorse~

[Ginevra]

Margaery talking to Tommen - I hope they don't sexualize this situation, he's only 12 in the book. But the cat was cute, Tommen is adorable, and I love Marg.

My pet theory was that Margaery was drinking the moon tea to keep her relations with Tommen secret, but I could be wrong.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

Rape, sexual torture, murder, drinking out of skulls, child sacrifice, pedophilia, I mean damn.... Jaime Lannister looked like Saint Jaime the Untainted in this episode.

[Dany's Silver]

Lady of Dragonstone, on 27 Apr 2014 - 7:50 PM, said:

Margaery talking to Tommen - I hope they don't sexualize this situation, he's only 12 in the book. But the cat was cute, Tommen is adorable, and I love Marg.

My pet theory was that Margaery was drinking the moon tea to keep her relations with Tommen secret, but I could be wrong.

He's 8 in the books, so, no... just no! :ack:

[Bastard of the Dreadfort]

SerJeremiahLouistark

Agreed. Cersei's follow up scene in this episode sold that for me. She was still b*tching Jaimie after it like nothing happened. Also GRRM's response helped solidify the adaption.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Bastard of the Dreadfort

[Hoo]

Did they mention a Targaryen in Braavos in last episode? I think Tywin mentioned it.