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[Book Spoilers] EP404 Discussion

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I hope this hasn´t been discussed, otherwise I´ll feel like a fool, but:

Could someone explain to me how the hell did the little baby Craster survive? How come he didn´t freeze to death? I mean, he was lying in snow, covered with one piece of cloth, and then he was riding, presumably for hours, with a creature that is the embodiment of ice.

:dunno:

Presumably the WW's have a way of preserving the baby's life. Fire consumes, ice preserves.

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prologue? epilogue?

possibly? idk, i struggle to see how GRRM will write in the mind of an other. I dont know if its just because i dont think they have much of a thought process/ think at all or because i have no where near an imagination such as GRRM's. probably the latter haha :)

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I'd be pretty surprised if there is no Manderly in the show. He gives us the North remembers, and Frey pie.

I would be down right annoyed if they remove those pies from the show!

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I hope this hasn´t been discussed, otherwise I´ll feel like a fool, but:

Could someone explain to me how the hell did the little baby Craster survive? How come he didn´t freeze to death? I mean, he was lying in snow, covered with one piece of cloth, and then he was riding, presumably for hours, with a creature that is the embodiment of ice.

:dunno:

Option 1: The Others have some way to not only suppress their own cold emanations, but to emit sufficient warmth to sustain a human infant for weeks while mosying upon a dead horse through the arctic circle. Which, then, makes one wonder why they don't suppress their cold emanations when they're sneaking up on a MFer...

Option 2: That part was written by someone other than GRRM, and it should make us appreciate him more.

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Anyway the writers' word is law

No, it isn't. If the writers don't understand what they depicted, that's there problem.

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Just look at the scene when Jon asks for volunteers , pay attention to the mediocre typical-hollywood background music, acting, directing, camera work... sums up the whole show which is incredibly hollywoodized version of phenomenal and original novels.

So hollywoodized, mediocre, fantasticaly dumbed down and adjusted for mass appeal. Starting from dialogues...

I can only assume the the flagrant undertones from Slynt and Thorne that Jon was being played for a fool thoughout his hollywood speech was apparently lost on you then. I enjoyed the parallel drawn between Ned and Jeor, with Jon clearly projecting of his own emotional moral indignation for his father's treatment and projecting it onto Jeor, therefore, risking the lives of some of the precious 100 men who were desperately needed to man the walls, and whom Thorne would not have sanctioned to leave but for his own hatred at the idea of taking orders from Jon. It's not the most sensible of missions. If they run into Mance, or Mance and the Thenns reach castle back before Jon returns, they will have seriously messed up.

I loved the acting. I loved Jon's insecurity at the start, his humbleness to Thorne, his struggle to get their attention, his down to earth accent mingled with his intelligence, the sudden emotion coming through with the BITTERNESS when describing Jeor's treatment "stabbed in the back by COWARDS"- I take it you missed the lashings of dramatic irony and foreshadowing there? Because I though that was the best line of the episode. The Stark idealism was creeping in, whilst all the time, the equally persuasive Thorne and Slynt looked on sniggering into their chicken: but perhaps this multilayered nuance just "too Hollywood" for your tastes?

On another topic: Locke. I really hope he isn't Bowen Marsh. Now that would be dumbing things down unnecessarily. Jon's fate was hotly debated: had he betrayed the watch and broken his oath? Had he followed his heart and abandoning his duty: the culmination of a path that started the moment Quorin asked him to kill him? For great people, rules are just guidelines, but that doesn't mean breaking them is always right. If Locke is Marsh, then it will take all responsibility away from Jon and ruin his carefully crafted learning to lead arc.

I'm holding out, because I really hope we are due some new characters on the wall in season 5 after the Wall has been won. There wont be a choosing until season 5 surely? Not considering Stannis hasn't even decided to set off up north yet and we are 4 episodes in already, nor has the Craster keep plot been resolved, or the Thenn attack started. In the books, Marsh is not in Castle Black at this stage so there is scope for Pyke, Mallister and Marsh to be introduced with Marsh returning bitter from his fight on the bridge. They are important characters in the book and it would be crazy to cut any of them.

Another issue with Locke kicking around CB for the next 3 seasons is: what about Rickon? So he knows Bran is out of the picture north of the wall, and Jon Snow is content on the wall fighting other battles. For all he knows, Rickon Stark could be with the Manderleys, or the Umbers, plotting an overthrow. Bolton charged him with finding "the boys" he will not thank Locke if he spends the next 3 seasons perched on a wall when he is supposed to be Bolton's best hunter. HBO loves "activating" their talented cast- that was what Crasters was all about. I would be upset not to see Locke go sniffing after Osha and Rickon, and see a bit of the Umbers.

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Poor Hodor! Makes me sad to see such a gentle giant in pain. Those bastards!

I know! I was more horrified at this Hodor scene than at the Cersei/Jaime scene last week even.

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No, it isn't. If the writers don't understand what they depicted, that's there problem.

I fail to see what your problem is with that scene.

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In my opinion... The Others, like Coldhands, are able to suppress their cold in order to sustain a living being. That's why the baby was in a seeming trance... It was looking into the others eyes... Then when it was laid down... It started crying. It was vulnerable.


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I hope this hasn´t been discussed, otherwise I´ll feel like a fool, but:

Could someone explain to me how the hell did the little baby Craster survive? How come he didn´t freeze to death? I mean, he was lying in snow, covered with one piece of cloth, and then he was riding, presumably for hours, with a creature that is the embodiment of ice.

:dunno:

I think there are some references in the books about Craster possibly having some blood of the Others in him already. Don't have my Kindle ready to find the quotes though.

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I think there are some references in the books about Craster possibly having some blood of the Others in him already. Don't have my Kindle ready to find the quotes though.

Huh? There's no references in the books about any human having "some blood of the Others," Craster or otherwise. Oy.

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In my opinion... The Others, like Coldhands, are able to suppress their cold in order to sustain a living being. That's why the baby was in a seeming trance... It was looking into the others eyes... Then when it was laid down... It started crying. It was vulnerable. Then it was picked up by the Night's King...

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Another issue with Locke kicking around CB for the next 3 seasons is: what about Rickon? So he knows Bran is out of the picture north of the wall, and Jon Snow is content on the wall fighting other battles. For all he knows, Rickon Stark could be with the Manderleys, or the Umbers, plotting an overthrow. Bolton charged him with finding "the boys" he will not thank Locke if he spends the next 3 seasons perched on a wall when he is supposed to be Bolton's best hunter. HBO loves "activating" their talented cast- that was what Crasters was all about. I would be upset not to see Locke go sniffing after Osha and Rickon, and see a bit of the Umbers.

First off, I think Jon's Caesar moment will come at the end of next season, not three seasons from now, as there's no way the showrunners are going to spend that much time on books four and five, especially if seven seasons truly is the target.

Second, I question why Locke would linger around even two seasons in the first place. We can already reasonably assume that he will be at the Wall for the battle in episode nine, as he could be seen in the background during Thorne's battle speech in the trailers for this season. By that point, do we not think that he would be reasonably sure that Jon truly doesn't know where Bran and Rickon are?

And if Locke really wanted to take Jon out, couldn't he easily do it during the upcoming mission? Or during the battle? Why wait until he's in a position of power and has a ton of wildling allies? I mean, obviously Locke doesn't know that's going to happen, but it seems like enough time will have passed by episode nine for him to correctly assume that Jon Snow does, in fact, know nothing and either ice him or head back to the Dreadfort.

Then again, I'm not writing the show, so who knows?

I kind of like the idea that maybe Locke decides to stay in the Watch. It did seem like he and Jon were legitimately getting along when they interacted. It would be kind of funny to see a character turn-around like that.

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I can only assume the the flagrant undertones from Slynt and Thorne that Jon was being played for a fool thoughout his hollywood speech was apparently lost on you then. I enjoyed the parallel drawn between Ned and Jeor, with Jon clearly projecting of his own emotional moral indignation for his father's treatment and projecting it onto Jeor, therefore, risking the lives of some of the precious 100 men who were desperately needed to man the walls, and whom Thorne would not have sanctioned to leave but for his own hatred at the idea of taking orders from Jon. It's not the most sensible of missions. If they run into Mance, or Mance and the Thenns reach castle back before Jon returns, they will have seriously messed up.

I loved the acting. I loved Jon's insecurity at the start, his humbleness to Thorne, his struggle to get their attention, his down to earth accent mingled with his intelligence, the sudden emotion coming through with the BITTERNESS when describing Jeor's treatment "stabbed in the back by COWARDS"- I take it you missed the lashings of dramatic irony and foreshadowing there? Because I though that was the best line of the episode. The Stark idealism was creeping in, whilst all the time, the equally persuasive Thorne and Slynt looked on sniggering into their chicken: but perhaps this multilayered nuance just "too Hollywood" for your tastes?

On another topic: Locke. I really hope he isn't Bowen Marsh. Now that would be dumbing things down unnecessarily. Jon's fate was hotly debated: had he betrayed the watch and broken his oath? Had he followed his heart and abandoning his duty: the culmination of a path that started the moment Quorin asked him to kill him? For great people, rules are just guidelines, but that doesn't mean breaking them is always right. If Locke is Marsh, then it will take all responsibility away from Jon and ruin his carefully crafted learning to lead arc.

I'm holding out, because I really hope we are due some new characters on the wall in season 5 after the Wall has been won. There wont be a choosing until season 5 surely? Not considering Stannis hasn't even decided to set off up north yet and we are 4 episodes in already, nor has the Craster keep plot been resolved, or the Thenn attack started. In the books, Marsh is not in Castle Black at this stage so there is scope for Pyke, Mallister and Marsh to be introduced with Marsh returning bitter from his fight on the bridge. They are important characters in the book and it would be crazy to cut any of them.

Another issue with Locke kicking around CB for the next 3 seasons is: what about Rickon? So he knows Bran is out of the picture north of the wall, and Jon Snow is content on the wall fighting other battles. For all he knows, Rickon Stark could be with the Manderleys, or the Umbers, plotting an overthrow. Bolton charged him with finding "the boys" he will not thank Locke if he spends the next 3 seasons perched on a wall when he is supposed to be Bolton's best hunter. HBO loves "activating" their talented cast- that was what Crasters was all about. I would be upset not to see Locke go sniffing after Osha and Rickon, and see a bit of the Umbers.

There was nothing amateur or poorly done in that scene. Just a case of people complaining for the sake of complaining.

The choosing will certainly happen next season, they're too busy to squeeze it in here and we'll need Stannis to be there besides. I have a feeling Locke is not making it to next season. I don't think we'll really hear from Rickon again before meeting Manderly which will also happen next year when Stannis is trying to rally the North.

Edited by DarkAndFullOfTurnips

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I kind of like the idea that maybe Locke decides to stay in the Watch. It did seem like he and Jon were legitimately getting along when they interacted. It would be kind of funny to see a character turn-around like that.

Would be cool, but what bothers me is that Thorne gave his nod of approval to Jon when he asked if he could take Locke with him. don' tthink he would've done that if he was not somehow in league with Locke

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I fail to see what your problem is with that scene.

The complete absence of consent. The complaints have been documented quite exhaustively on these boards, and in many other publications.

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There was nothing amateur or poorly done in that scene. Just a case of people complaining for the sake of complaining.

I still think the plot justifications for them to go to Craster's are weak, but this scene was pretty good, even Kit's acting was decent for a change. It was impressive visually too, the whole episode was really well shot IMO (except a few quite fake looking CGI shots of Meereen).

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^^^

You will soon enough. Jon Snow: The Great Other. It is known...

Actually, yes, I think this will be Jon's fate. One of those 13 guys in black...

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Huh? There's no references in the books about any human having "some blood of the Others," Craster or otherwise. Oy.

Actually, there are references about Craster, and how he brings "cold" with him wherever he goes. I'll have to wait until I get home from work to look up the exact quotes.

EDIT: I found one of the quotes in another thread on this board, from A Clash of Kings

Dywen said Craster was a kinslayer, liar, raper, and craven, and hinted that he trafficked with slavers and demons. "And worse," the old forester would add, clacking his wooden teeth. "There's a cold smell to that one, there is."

Plus, in GoT, Old Nan tells Bran that there were wildlings that would lay with the Others to birth half-human children.

Edited by Jehanne

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I still think the plot justifications for them to go to Craster's are weak, but this scene was pretty good, even Kit's acting was decent for a change. It was impressive visually too, the whole episode was really well shot IMO (except a few quite fake looking CGI shots of Meereen).

I agree, Bran and Jon being at Craster's could've been better if they really wanted it to happen. Kit has had a good season. Since Jon's one of my favorite characters I was beginning to worry about his ability when he gets meatier scenes but I'm pretty confident in him now.

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