Rill Redthorn Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 What is so interesting about Cold Hands? He's a wight who retained self-awareness and something close to free will, or at least a certain amount of it. He can speak! He can probably give information on the Others, how their magic works, what its limits and capabilities are. He might have some idea of how to enable the other wights to retain/regain self-awareness, rendering them much less dangerous to the living. What's not interesting about Coldhands??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightStark Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Okey quick question. Is Bran's storyline going a tad faster than in the books? I can't really remember where he should be right now, but I get the feeling, it's not beyond the wall, and definitely not in Craster's keep? He was beyond the Wall by now, CH had sent Sam to bring him through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAndFullOfTurnips Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 What's not interesting about Coldhands??? Well the fact that he's probably never going to appear in the books again and left us with more questions than answers I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rill Redthorn Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 (edited) Well the fact that he's probably never going to appear in the books again and left us with more questions than answers I suppose. That doesn't make him uninteresting. Frustrating, yes, but not dull. Edited April 28, 2014 by Rill Redthorn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany's Silver Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 I believe in the books they were given some sort of drink everyday that hardened them against pain, etc to the point they did not feel pain anymore and it helped them become stronger warriors? A drink that hardens someone against pain wouldn't necessarily lead to an increased musculature. He's a wight who retained self-awareness and something close to free will, or at least a certain amount of it. He can speak! He can probably give information on the Others, how their magic works, what its limits and capabilities are. He might have some idea of how to enable the other wights to retain/regain self-awareness, rendering them much less dangerous to the living. What's not interesting about Coldhands??? This. Also, is he Benjen Startk?! Enquiring minds would like an answer to that question! :read: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basilisk312 Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 ~~No one should be surprised that Jon Snow is the love child of R+L. That doesn't mean the show should tell us before George does and everyone be okay with it because it was implied. i don't agree with you that there were huge and multiple spoilers in ep 4, but i do agree with the logic behind the above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAndFullOfTurnips Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 That doesn't make him uninteresting. Frustrating, yes, but not dull. To clarify I find it uninteresting and unnecessary to introduce a character in a complicated story that only further complicates things. I think it was ok in the books and honestly I didn't even care about it until I found these forums, but on the show I think it's too much, especially if there are spoilers attached to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia Atreides Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 A drink that hardens someone against pain wouldn't necessarily lead to an increased musculature. This. Also, is he Benjen Startk?! Enquiring minds would like an answer to that question! :read: yes, but they exercised quite a bit too. I understand the point of no testosterone but well its i fantasy now. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rill Redthorn Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 To clarify I find it uninteresting and unnecessary to introduce a character in a complicated story that only further complicates things. I think it was ok in the books and honestly I didn't even care about it until I found these forums, but on the show I think it's too much, especially if there are spoilers attached to it. Saying you think that a character is better off skipped for narrative reasons is fine, but it's not the same thing as claiming that the character is uninteresting and you can't imagine why anyone else would disagree with you on that point and want to see him introduced. I think it's blindingly obvious why people -- including me -- wanted to see Coldhands on the show. His very existence opens wide the possibilities for what's really going on with the Others and the wights, particularly the question of "Are they a monstrous mindless destructive evil force like Tolkien's orc hordes, or are they simply very, very alien? Would it ever be possible to negotiate with them instead of limiting our engagement to all-out war?" He's a fascinating character, and his presence would have indicated that perhaps the showrunners were also interested in asking questions about the real nature of the Enemy in ASOIAF. I suspect they aren't interested in this -- the Others and wights are just BAD BAD BAD and need to be destroyed utterly, period. But I hope for more from GRRM in the actual books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueDragon Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Does anyone really think that the books will catch up to the show? I don't. We are going to see the ending long, long before Martin produces the next 2? books. HBO is making a mint. No way they are going to pull back now. Those of you who are too upset by spoilers might have to reconsider watching the show. As for me, I am glad that I have a chance to see the ending before Martin and/or I croak. One thing about dying: you don't get to see the finish to a lot of stories, fictional or real, you are invested in. If the show deviates more and more, some of you might find solace in the idea that the books will clean everything up to your satisfaction. As for myself, I just want to know if R+L=J, if Arya can be redeemed from assassin status and if the Starks and Dany are left standing. Who sits the Iron Throne is of no real concern to me. I doubt it will exist by the end of the story. Westeros will enter an entirely new era of some sort. I wouldn't venture to predict what it will look like. And no one has commented on Jojen's obvious visions which we will find out about when he comes out of his fit. Something about the twist in the story has caused Jojen to open an important window into what they should do or what is coming next. Can anyone explain how Summer was trapped? And if he is hurt, how does he help Snow escape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAndFullOfTurnips Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 (edited) Saying you think that a character is better off skipped for narrative reasons is fine, but it's not the same thing as claiming that the character is uninteresting and you can't imagine why anyone else would disagree with you on that point and want to see him introduced. I think it's blindingly obvious why people -- including me -- wanted to see Coldhands on the show. His very existence opens wide the possibilities for what's really going on with the Others and the wights, particularly the question of "Are they a monstrous mindless destructive evil force like Tolkien's orc hordes, or are they simply very, very alien? Would it ever be possible to negotiate with them instead of limiting our engagement to all-out war?" He's a fascinating character, and his presence would have indicated that perhaps the showrunners were also interested in asking questions about the real nature of the Enemy in ASOIAF. I suspect they aren't interested in this -- the Others and wights are just BAD BAD BAD and need to be destroyed utterly, period. But I hope for more from GRRM in the actual books. I can completely understand why someone would want it in the show, I just stated why, to me, it wasn't all that interesting. It was like taking a test without getting the results after...I find the test interesting and fun but only if there's closure in the end. I think you're being unfair stating the showrunners don't want to ask questions about the WW's since they've already shown us more than GRRM himself has in 5 books. I suspect they'll make it quite clear that the story is basically centered about an ancient war threatening humanity and the "Good guys" are probably just humans fighting to survive. But wigths and necromancy has never been a favorable trait for a society, I don't think GRRM really makes me think "Maybe the Others are really the good guys" as long as they murder people willy nilly and resurrect dead corpses to fight against the living. Although now that we're on the topic...One of the NW rangers turned wight clearly goes to get Jeor Mormont. I never really put too much thought into that, but there might be a lot more there than simply killing the leader of the NW for the sake of weakening the NW. Edited April 28, 2014 by DarkAndFullOfTurnips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raksha 2014 Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Ick. I'd forgotten how early Cersei and Jaime started things. Of course, they're also much closer in age than Margaery and Tommen. I just want that poor kid to somehow manage to not be completely screwed up by everything around (surely someone can maintain some innocence in ASoIaF!) :) Well, in the show, we don't see Bran make Sam promise to not tell Jon. I would have preferred that promise had been left in their arc, but we'll see where this goes. Someone else mentioned that perhaps Jojen will key into Jon's warging abilities, and that sort of makes sense, since the first time Jojen was near Jon, Ghost was on the other side of the Wall. Perhaps Jojen's green dreams intensify nearer to the Wall (the way Mel's powers do in ADWD)? :bowdown: :agree: I know. I was commenting that he was showing up as a new recruit, because there was some speculation that he would simply show up at CB as an envoy of the new Warden of the North to have a look around for Bran and Rickon. Is there any definite information on TV-Tommen's age? Not the actor's, but the character's age. It would be interesting to know. Did I miss a mention of it in the show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Underfoot Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 I honestly think the thing that I was most annoyed with in this episode was all the time dedicated to North of the Wall and how the slave revolt in Mereen was a blip. I feel like one of the big things in the book is that while Dany moves triumphant from city to city she is still leaving devestation and violence (whether it's righteous or not) in her wake. I was looking for some good on Tarantino style revenge violence, not just one guy getting rushed in an Alley. You could have cut out a lot of the the Karl is the best fighter, fuck them til their dead, taunt the thirsty direwolf stuff and really start making Danys story bigger. I'm glad they kept the crucifiction piece and it wasn't too glossed over but I'm ready to return to a semblance of depth with Dany's story. Especially since, without being captivated by her POV, we can really explore what the siege was like and why it's going to be so hard for her to rule. Love anything with Brienne. Enjoyed the Littlefinger-Sansa dynamic and the segue to QoT-Marg. Glad to see they are going to keep the war between Marg and Cersei over Tommen alive and I hope they throw a little more Tywin in to keep it interesting. Liked Locke being at the wall, adds a different air of animosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lizard King Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 A Vanity Fair article about the divergence the show is having from the books: http://www.vanityfair.com/vf-hollywood/game-of-thrones-white-walkers-not-in-books Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rill Redthorn Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 I can completely understand why someone would want it in the show, I just stated why, to me, it wasn't all that interesting. It was like taking a test without getting the results after...I find the test interesting and fun but only if there's closure in the end. I think you're being unfair stating the showrunners don't want to ask questions about the WW's since they've already shown us more than GRRM himself has in 5 books. I suspect they'll make it quite clear that the story is basically centered about an ancient war threatening humanity and the "Good guys" are probably just humans fighting to survive. But wigths and necromancy has never been a favorable trait for a society, I don't think GRRM really makes me think "Maybe the Others are really the good guys" as long as they murder people willy nilly and resurrect dead corpses to fight against the living. The question isn't whether or not they are "good guys", it's whether or not they have comprehensible motivations for their behavior. Sauron's orcs and the mindless hordes of evil in other fantasy series like "The Wheel of Time" and "The Fionavar Tapestry" are evil just because. They have no understandable motivation or goals beyond "Destroy everything and be as nasty as possible to your enemies in the process! Always maximize suffering!" They're cartoons. The fantasy series that GRRM claims was in part an inspiration for ASOIAF, Tad Williams' "Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn", bored me to tears and I didn't finish it, but I do know that one thing Williams did that was cool was make his bad guys understandably motivated, while still not making them good guys. I'm hoping that that's one of the things GRRM was thinking of when he said that reading Williams' series convinced him fantasy could be done for adults. Adults can -- or should be able to -- appreciate that when people do bad crap, it's not generally just for the love of being shitty to other people. It's for other reasons. Adults can understand that when a war breaks out, the other side has reasons for why they fight and why they kill that go beyond "Hey, it's something fun to do on a Saturday night." (Or, "They hate our freedoms!"...get real.) So the presence of Coldhands, to me, indicated that GRRM has something more complex in mind for the Others and the wights than Old Nan's version of "They just hate everything that's alive and warm," which is the kind of thing you tell kids like Bran but not the kind of thing that holds up under closer examination. My impression of the tack the show is taking, however, is that the Others and the wights are on the same level as the zombies in the Walking Dead: just mindless forces of destruction, nothing more complicated -- or interesting -- than that. Whether or not this is "unfair" I couldn't say, but D&D have shown a marked tendency toward reducing the level of gray in the source material ("Littlefinger BAAAAD! Tyrion GOOOOOD!") so it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that on the show the Others and wights are never anything more complicated than "The Enemy That Must Be Destroyed Before They Destroy Us." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
When Harry met Sansa Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Guyse guyse guyse!!! For the last time, the Other at the end of the episode was just an Other; the NK was just a man and that was not the NK! The viewer's guide changed it to "Walker" aka Other because, as Ran pointed out, the episode guide is not written by GRRM, D&D or possibly even anyone involved with the show. Can anyone explain how Summer was trapped? And if he is hurt, how does he help Snow escape?I assume you meant "Bran" or "Ghost" where you have Snow? It looked like one of those standard pit traps where the entrance is covered by leafs or snow or something and has something along the lines of sharpened stakes at the bottom. I'm sure he's wounded but OK and when Jon and the rescue party come next episode he, along with Bran, Ghost and co. will be reunited. The writers are obviously just making Jon and Ghost's reunion more dramatic since this is undoubtedly how they get back together. I would be surprised if the JonBran fight/reunion is any other scene next episode besides the first or last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAndFullOfTurnips Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 The question isn't whether or not they are "good guys", it's whether or not they have comprehensible motivations for their behavior. Sauron's orcs and the mindless hordes of evil in other fantasy series like "The Wheel of Time" and "The Fionavar Tapestry" are evil just because. They have no understandable motivation or goals beyond "Destroy everything and be as nasty as possible to your enemies in the process! Always maximize suffering!" They're cartoons. The fantasy series that GRRM claims was in part an inspiration for ASOIAF, Tad Williams' "Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn", bored me to tears and I didn't finish it, but I do know that one thing Williams did that was cool was make his bad guys understandably motivated, while still not making them good guys. I'm hoping that that's one of the things GRRM was thinking of when he said that reading Williams' series convinced him fantasy could be done for adults. Adults can -- or should be able to -- appreciate that when people do bad crap, it's not generally just for the love of being shitty to other people. It's for other reasons. Adults can understand that when a war breaks out, the other side has reasons for why they fight and why they kill that go beyond "Hey, it's something fun to do on a Saturday night." (Or, "They hate our freedoms!"...get real.) So the presence of Coldhands, to me, indicated that GRRM has something more complex in mind for the Others and the wights than Old Nan's version of "They just hate everything that's alive and warm," which is the kind of thing you tell kids like Bran but not the kind of thing that holds up under closer examination. My impression of the tack the show is taking, however, is that the Others and the wights are on the same level as the zombies in the Walking Dead: just mindless forces of destruction, nothing more complicated -- or interesting -- than that. Whether or not this is "unfair" I couldn't say, but D&D have shown a marked tendency toward reducing the level of gray in the source material ("Littlefinger BAAAAD! Tyrion GOOOOOD!") so it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that on the show the Others and wights are never anything more complicated than "The Enemy That Must Be Destroyed Before They Destroy Us." Got it, so we're just making assumptions based on little to no information and chastising the showrunners for it. Ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
When Harry met Sansa Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 I honestly think the thing that I was most annoyed with in this episode was all the time dedicated to North of the Wall and how the slave revolt in Mereen was a blip. I feel like one of the big things in the book is that while Dany moves triumphant from city to city she is still leaving devestation and violence (whether it's righteous or not) in her wake. I was looking for some good on Tarantino style revenge violence, not just one guy getting rushed in an Alley. You could have cut out a lot of the the Karl is the best fighter, fuck them til their dead, taunt the thirsty direwolf stuff and really start making Danys story bigger. I'm glad they kept the crucifiction piece and it wasn't too glossed over but I'm ready to return to a semblance of depth with Dany's story. Especially since, without being captivated by her POV, we can really explore what the siege was like and why it's going to be so hard for her to rule. :agree: This was really the last time Dany does anything cool for seemingly forever and yet they accomplished it in the lamest way possible. There was no Jorah or BtB, no room now for Lord Friendzone to be fully fleshed out, not even any fighting shown period. I get that they have a limited budget but even a skirmish would have been better than the assumption that the slaves quickly take out a bunch of the great masters and the city, which apparently has absolutely no army at all, folds immediately. That was pathetic and the Mysha stuff followed by Dany at the Great Pyramid with the Targ flag was more of an epic eye roll for me than a, Wow, that was badass! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia Atreides Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 I honestly think the thing that I was most annoyed with in this episode was all the time dedicated to North of the Wall and how the slave revolt in Mereen was a blip. I feel like one of the big things in the book is that while Dany moves triumphant from city to city she is still leaving devestation and violence (whether it's righteous or not) in her wake. I was looking for some good on Tarantino style revenge violence, not just one guy getting rushed in an Alley. You could have cut out a lot of the the Karl is the best fighter, fuck them til their dead, taunt the thirsty direwolf stuff and really start making Danys story bigger. I'm glad they kept the crucifiction piece and it wasn't too glossed over but I'm ready to return to a semblance of depth with Dany's story. Especially since, without being captivated by her POV, we can really explore what the siege was like and why it's going to be so hard for her to rule. Love anything with Brienne. Enjoyed the Littlefinger-Sansa dynamic and the segue to QoT-Marg. Glad to see they are going to keep the war between Marg and Cersei over Tommen alive and I hope they throw a little more Tywin in to keep it interesting. Liked Locke being at the wall, adds a different air of animosity. I think they will as the season moves forward we will see more of Dany trying to rule, etc. She is now at the end of her journey of conquering for now within the books themselves the rest still has to come. :) I don't think they could of glossed over the Crucifixion if they tried it was something that needed to be done. And for the Craster scene they need it now since Jon is going back there :). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysy Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Well Hi, first post here, long time lurker. As for myself, I just want to know if R+L=J, if Arya can be redeemed from assassin status and if the Starks and Dany are left standing. Who sits the Iron Throne is of no real concern to me. I doubt it will exist by the end of the story. I want to know if Jaime survives and regains his reputation as a true knight. And marries Brienne :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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