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[Book Spoilers] EP404 Discussion

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Got it, so we're just making assumptions based on little to no information and chastising the showrunners for it. Ok.

Wow, you must be so new here.

Yes.

We're doing that.

It's what the boards are for (among other things.)

It's perfectly fine to do so.

No showrunners were in any way harmed in the making of this message board.

Consider derectalizing your cranium.

Edited by Rill Redthorn

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Is there any definite information on TV-Tommen's age? Not the actor's, but the character's age. It would be interesting to know. Did I miss a mention of it in the show?

According to GoT wiki, approx 12 in season 4: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Tommen_Baratheon

They didn't say anything, but I think we're supposed to conclude he's pre-pubescent (Tywin mentioned something about "when you come of age") in 4x03.

Edit:

That all being said, back in Season 1 Loras says that he's 8. And we know a couple of years have passed (LF to Sansa in 4x03). So I think the show-runners are hoping we won't notice a 2-year age jump for him.

Edited by Chebyshov

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Wow, you must be so new here.

Yes.

We're doing that.

It's what the boards are for (among other things.)

It's perfectly fine to do so.

No showrunners were in any way harmed in the making of this message board.

Consider derectalizing your cranium.

You can quite easily see when I joined compared to yourself. Regardless of time spent on a forum, people shouldn't let it slide if you make irrational knee-jerk assumptions based on no information whatsoever.

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There is nothing interesting about Coldhands. He is just a meatsuit Bloodraven uses.

Well, a golem. I think so too. His arc is over.

I suspect Benjen is in the lower levels of the crypt at Winterfell, or in a tunnel around the wall, or in an underground system that connects them.

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

There's no reason to make one character the same as another. GRRM can create characters faster than he kills them.

CH is not a wight IIRC - no blue eyes, rational, speaks, helps humans.

Edited by rmholt

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Ok, perhaps this has been asked in this thread already, but it's 45 pages, can't read through all of those, I'll still be reading when the next episode airs.



Did I miss something with Locke? How did he suddenly end up on the Wall? Last time we saw him, he was at Harrenhal, right?



I've read on the gameofthrones wikia that the Other at the very end was the Night's King.. Has this been confirmed anywhere?


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Ok, perhaps this has been asked in this thread already, but it's 45 pages, can't read through all of those, I'll still be reading when the next episode airs.

Did I miss something with Locke? How did he suddenly end up on the Wall? Last time we saw him, he was at Harrenhal, right?

Locke was at the Dreadfort with Ramsay and Roose in episode two, where Roose promised him lands if he is able to find and dispose of the two remaining Stark children. Ramsay puts it out there that he might want to take care of Jon Snow as well just in case.

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Huh? There's no references in the books about any human having "some blood of the Others," Craster or otherwise. Oy.

“Best we be starting back, m’lord,” he [Dywen] said to Bowen Marsh. “Dark’s falling, and there’s something in the smell o’ the night that I mislike.”

Dywen catches the cold smell of the wights in the air.

Dywen, the gnarled old forester who liked to boast that he could smell snow coming on, sidled closer to the corpses and took a whiff.

Dywen said Craster was a kinslayer, liar, raper, and craven, and hinted that he trafficked with slavers and demons. “And worse,” the old forester would add, clacking his wooden teeth. “There’s a cold smell to that one, there is.”

Craster was one of those people that I am not sure about him being 100% human. Dywen catches the cold smell in him. His mother was a wildling woman who lay with a ranger. Old Nan told stories about wildling women laying with Others and birthing hybrid creatures. I am just saying.

Dywen was holding forth, spoon in hand. “I know this wood as well as any man alive, and I tell you, I wouldn’t care to ride through it alone tonight. Can’t you smell it?”

“What is it you smell, Dywen?” asked Grenn.

“Seems to me like it smells… well… cold.”

“Your head’s as wooden as your teeth,” Hake told him. “There’s no smell to cold.”

There is, thought Jon, remembering the night in the Lord Commander’s chambers. It smells like death.

It seems Dywen was right all the time. More on Dywen here.

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You can quite easily see when I joined compared to yourself. Regardless of time spent on a forum, people shouldn't let it slide if you make irrational knee-jerk assumptions based on no information whatsoever.

Yeah, I figure you just inherited your older brother or sister's account when they went off to college. Otherwise you wouldn't have this irrational knee-jerk idea that policing the boards to decide what should be allowed to "slide" and what shouldn't was somehow your job. Even if I agreed with your assessment that my saying "I think the show's going for direction X and I would prefer direction Y" was an "irrational knee-jerk assumption", that's not a crime or a sin; it's part of the lively lifeblood of this message board. Seriously, who died and made you Ran?

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Well, a golem. I think so too. His arc is over.

I suspect Benjen is in the lower levels of the crypt at Winterfell, or in a tunnel around the wall, or in an underground system that connects them.

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

There's no reason to make one character the same as another. GRRM can create characters faster than he kills them.

CH is not a wight IIRC - no blue eyes, rational, speaks, helps humans.

Yeah. He is certainly a corpse but not in the fashion of the Others. I think Bloodraven raised him through some dark necromancy.

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There is nothing interesting about Coldhands. He is just a meatsuit Bloodraven uses.

Damn. I wish I would've figured that one out. But alas, I'm not psychic. Lucky for us, some members here are. And we thank ye.

Edited by Oberyn2cool4Westeros

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Damn. I wish I would've figured that one out. But alas, I'm not psychic. Lucky for us, some members here are. And we thank ye.

Prefacing posts with "I think" is default, so not necessary.

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Actually, there are references about Craster, and how he brings "cold" with him wherever he goes. I'll have to wait until I get home from work to look up the exact quotes.

EDIT: I found one of the quotes in another thread on this board, from A Clash of Kings

Dywen said Craster was a kinslayer, liar, raper, and craven, and hinted that he trafficked with slavers and demons. "And worse," the old forester would add, clacking his wooden teeth. "There's a cold smell to that one, there is."

Plus, in GoT, Old Nan tells Bran that there were wildlings that would lay with the Others to birth half-human children.

Wow, that's a good catch. That makes The Others much more closely related to humankind, and not strictly "magical"/supernatural beings.

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It's obvious there will be a reunion... R+L= J people...

The Reeds kids are there!! Surely they must know something... c'mon D&D grow some balls and drop this bomb now please.

OMG I HOPE THEY DONT DO IT THIS SOON. I can not begin to imagine the crazy riots that would cause.

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Wow this thread has exploded since last night.... Not going to read through the 30 ish new pages, but something I caught on my rewatch:



Littlefinger tells Sansa that the Tyrells are his co-conspirators, but does it in a way where he seems to be testing her.



It's two statements he makes about them:



1. The obvious statement about how it greatly benefited them (the ambiguous them), and that they really wanted it done.



2. The very subtle remark at the very end of the scene where he comments that his relationship with them is.... wait for it.... "growing strong" (aka House Tyrell's words).



I thought that second line especially was an excellent touch.

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Presumably the WW's have a way of preserving the baby's life. Fire consumes, ice preserves.

Well I have a little problem with Aemon´s quote, because ice indeed preserves... after you´re dead.

Option 1: The Others have some way to not only suppress their own cold emanations, but to emit sufficient warmth to sustain a human infant for weeks while mosying upon a dead horse through the arctic circle. Which, then, makes one wonder why they don't suppress their cold emanations when they're sneaking up on a MFer...

Option 2: That part was written by someone other than GRRM, and it should make us appreciate him more.

Indeed I do :read:

In my opinion... The Others, like Coldhands, are able to suppress their cold in order to sustain a living being. That's why the baby was in a seeming trance... It was looking into the others eyes... Then when it was laid down... It started crying. It was vulnerable.

I agree that the baby was in a trance while with the Other, but what about the time with Rast (he didn´t exactly take it out and lay it behind the keep) and the time before the Other came - newborn in snow, practically naked.

Magic.

Occam´s razor?

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I really hope the first LS scene won't be the Brienne/Pod scene.



Her first scene should be a BIG reminder of the RW and the vengeance that is to come.



You can appreciate that and root for her but if she tries to kill Brienne and Pod (who are both popular with the fans) then I can't see her going down well with the fans as opposed to getting some Stark revenge. Let us love her reappearance before we hate it!



They are definitely including her as 'Catelyn Stark' has been mentioned allot...trying to keep her character remembered.


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I made a chart toillustrate how I feel about this episode.



15z3wv7.png


EDIT: Image won't display for some reason despijte that i can see it in the edit window.


Edited by Vvornth

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So essentially your argument is that you're fine with changes so long as you like them, but god forbid they should change anything in a manner you disapprove of?

I really don't get why this Bran storyline is a big deal. His story was boring as hell in the third and fifth books. Yeah, there was some cool backstory relayed during his chapters, but other than that it's all travelogues, similar to Brienne through most of the fourth book. All the writers are doing is putting him in a situation where he might actually be able to do something interesting for the first time since season two, and where his group is in some legitimate peril.

I also don't really get why the story with Bran in the North is any different than your comparison of Arya meeting Tywin. Both are major departures from the source material designed to make the show more interesting to viewers.

Further, HBO owns the television rights to Game of Thrones. There is no such thing as fan fiction here. This is an officially licensed adaptation. As far as anyone is concerned, this is the official version of the television story. It has its differences from the books, as every adaptation does, but ultimately it seems to still be pretty faithful. Nothing they have changed appears like it will have any impact on the end game. They're just fleshing out the middle to add some excitement in what would otherwise be a boring character arc (Bran travelling for another full season).

Further, Martin's quotes on fan fiction do not apply here, and I honestly don't see how anyone could think that they do. He signed off on this adaptation! He writes an episode a year, and consults with the creators and actors. Just because you don't care for the changes (and believe me, there are changes that I don't like) doesn't mean the story on the show doesn't count.

No, I think you have confused the distinction I made between additions and rewrites. I'm reasonable, I rarely criticize Jackson with the Tolkein material, for instance, because I realize there is a lot there that needs to be bridged and clarified and tied together. However, aside from a few mistakes—which I likewise abhor—Jackson and Co. rarley rewrite the source material.

What they add usually surrounds the original plot as either shiny wrapping paper, or exposition (which can often be found in source material like appendices/ other works). Even if I don't always like it, I can see it's usefulness, purpose, or justification.

This show is not follow that same mode of adaptation. They aren't just adding. Again, the Arya/Tywin is a good example of a satisfactory addition to advance/streamline/develop. Arya is where she needs to be according to the general plot of the book, Tywin is on his way to KL and happens to stop by. I get it, and the way they use the encounter to world build and transmit backstory while developing Tywins character is an excellent handling of the situation. The Arya POV plotline still exists, has been edited and added to do, but it exists along its intended path.

Bran/Jon scenes in Episode 404 is not just adding to their plot. It is rewriting their plot. That is the distinction. Two characters with unique POV's of their own have had their plot lines changed because the show writers thought the change would develop interesting conflicts and scenes. That is fanfiction, whatever legal rights are held. It's just fanfiction. It is no longer the source material, an embelishment of the source material, an addition to the source material, or an omission of the source material. It is new material that even contradicts source material (jons knowledge of bran for instance). Fan fiction.

I'm not nitpicking here. Even if the changes don't break the story (and I'm not sayin they absolutley will) it is a dangerous precedent to set. It has never been this blatant in the show before. The Martin quote I posted way back on page 37 or around there is absolutely relevant. Once you open that door, it will be hard to close . . . how can it not be hard to close, you've spun the chain of events down different paths.

This is all unecessary when there is quite literally an overabundance of source material to work with. Much of which fans are clamoring to see.

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