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[Book Spoilers] EP404 Discussion

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dont know if anybody posted this yet but did anybody notice the kid in the nightswatch saying hes a very good archer, hes gonna kill ygritte forsure

Good catch. I think you are right. He definitely had a good long look at Ygritte when he was hiding under the table (or what was it) during the wildlings attack.

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And yes, they are still trying to follow the books. They just decided to have Bran do something interesting, since he really doesn't do much of consequence for most of books three and five and only has a couple of chapters in five at all. It's probably safe to assume that Bran is an important character, so giving him screen time is something that the showrunners would want to do, lest we forget about him. And if they continued to show him just being dragged around, viewers would start to grow increasingly bored like they did last season. This is a solution to that problem.

:agree:

I heard people saying the White Walker Maul scene was from TWOW...maybe the prologue? I can't find the source that though.

And yes, they're definitely following the books. They know how it ends. They know they have to get from point A to point B. The books may be taking the meandering, scenic route, and the show may be taking the highway, but I think where the story ends will be quite similar.

I see.. How about Jon knowing that Bran is alive and is going north north north~

You'll fit in perfectly on this board.....

Uhmm.. should I thank you for this?

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Hi QueenSansa2! I'm a long-time lurker, only started properly rambling today, but I'll have a waffle at your points.



Re 1) I think you're reading into it a little into it. The pause, imo, was just dramatic/emotional tension. It would've been rubbish if they'd rushed the scene. I also disagree a little (a lot less convincingly, because this is just my theory!) about the Jaime-Brienne fate, as I think it'll be Jaime that kills Brienne in trial by combat, well, her telling him beforehand what she knows about Gendry etc, then letting him win.



Re 2) Again, I have to respectively disagree. I think the Tommen-Marge scene was brilliant. They only aged the actor up one year (he's still 16) in the show, but every kid is aged up a bit in the show. I don't *think* they'll ever have sex either in the show, just Marge c*ck-teasing. She defo has still been screwing around still, I think, with Loras is what I think the show will go with to avoid casting randomers. She didn't buy him Ser Pounce in the show as it would immediately giveaway this secret friendship they're building behind Cersei's back, which *should* result in an epic showdown between Marge and Cersei when she finds out! They have to do Cersei's storyline a little differently as a lot of her rage is just in her head in the books. Just my opinion, anyway.



Re 3) Another point, another respectful disagreement! My money's on her just sweet-talking the Kingsguard chap, she's the hottest woman in King's Landing after all. Then again, I think this is a plot hole for the show not to point out how she did it, especially following the Jaime-Cersei scene, so god knows. I also don't think Varys is starting a war as they've been in a permanent state of war since the end of book one, I'm in the 'he's a Blackfyre' camp so I think him killing Kevan is just to help put Cersei back in control to screw everything up and make it easier for Aegon to conquer.



Re 5) Foreshadowing or red herring? People get their knickers in far too much of a twist about this sort of stuff, I think it was a fun throwaway line that hints at a potential future but not necessarily definite foreshadowing. I'll hold my hands up and say I don't an effing clue though!



I figured I'd end my ramble by defending the show, which you seem peeved at. I say don't blame the show, blame GRRM. He knows how slow his writing of the series has become, it's his fault if the show overtakes the books. I realise it sucks that we're going to find out the ending in the show before the books (not everyone seems to have come to terms with this yet), so I don't think it's fair now the show's starting to overlap. Unless GRRM pulls the most shocking, brilliant bunny out of a hat and realises two massive books in the next two years, it's going to happen.


Edited by King Theon

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I have $0.25 says her last word was not Jaime. If it were a person wouldn't it be Sansa or Cat first?

Her mind wasn't on Jaime personally - only as a symbol of her oath to Cat

Anyway I have another $0.25 it wasn't a person's name.

When I long for book characters and events I go to the books. I don't miss all those damn cousins anyway.

People do go on about sth happening or not happening one week and sometimes the VERY NEXT WEEK it's resolved. For characters, if you don't need 'em, don't hire 'em. The books were specifically written without regard for budget and time - GRRM had been doing TV writing - so reverse-engineering the story into a TV show is going to require changes.

To address your question, no I don't get mad. I didn't get mad watching the mess ppl made of The Lathe of Heaven or Dune either. I just don't watch those movies, and believe me, TLOH is one of the best things I've read on my entire life. These guys are doing great work - ratings are past those for The Sopranos - IMHO and I appreciate what they've done.

Read about the making of Ice Henge. Nothing like it has ever been done. Many great things in the show have never been done before. And they are doing it well. It's epic.

Edited by rmholt

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I always thought it was 'sword', guessing it's not confirmed what it is she says? It's been a while since I read Feast/Dances.


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GRRM has already confirmed that it was 'sword'. The BwB offered her the noose or the sword.

Ha, answered it for me, thanks.

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I guess I misread on a forum somewhere that Brienne said Jaime. My point is the same though. When I was reading through this I noticed people didn't really express a lot of anger over stuff...



I guess having just finished reading the books, the passion is so fresh. And I'm not angry really, just want to know if they are getting away with telling me the answers to my questions! I had a million questions after reading the books and spent a week reading through the forums.



And for me reading to much into things, I think it's a give or take. Television and movies are known for predictability! I just saw these things as blatantly planting a seed for some future they already know about.


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I guess I misread on a forum somewhere that Brienne said Jaime. My point is the same though. When I was reading through this I noticed people didn't really express a lot of anger over stuff...

I guess having just finished reading the books, the passion is so fresh. And I'm not angry really, just want to know if they are getting away with telling me the answers to my questions! I had a million questions after reading the books and spent a week reading through the forums.

And for me reading to much into things, I think it's a give or take. Television and movies are known for predictability! I just saw these things as blatantly planting a seed for some future they already know about.

Getting angry over a TV show is a waste of time, really. Look at how angry people got over Jaime-Cersei, it wouldn't erase the scene and the controversy only actually served to bump the viewership for the following episode! I much prefer the books but I'm sympathetic to changes and overlapping as it's simply the nature of the books being unfinished and them being literally impossible to adapt exactly without being stupidly expensive and stupidly confusing.

There were definitely things I didn't like in the episode (Ghost caged, Marge sneaking into Tommen's room unexplained, Locke happening to waltz in as Sam bumbles out a contrived plot point that's coincidentally right), but I thought the vast majority was pretty brilliant.

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Long story short, objectionable content presented in a reasonable context will generally be accepted, and when it has no point and/or goes to far then people tend to get upset. GRRM is far superior to D&D in terms of knowing which buttons and how hard to press. It is known.

It is known.

I think this gets to the heart of the matter. If this were a one time thing, we would go, "Yuck, but man those guys were messed up." Instead its within the context of watching the abuse and death of two prostitutes, two consensual scenes being turned into rape, and it is in addition to all the rape that will be talked about or even shown as a matter of course since it was in the books (like stories about The Mountain etc).

It is too much. It is losing its power as a storytelling device and really does seem about making sure there naked women on the screen every episode.

Also I question the people to think sexual violence happens constantly in the books. There are plenty of chapters that do not have any. That advance the plot with dialogue including politicking, storytelling, etc. There are also scenes with action, violence, and yes sexual violence, but they aren't used every chapter because it destroys their effect to do so.

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Sorry, long time lurker, not much of a poster, but I think the Caster storyline could be pretty decent. I mean, having Ghost locked up is pretty lame, but whatever. I thought the Great Other or Night's King, whom ever, it's, looked lame as well. Too Sloth for me and surprised he didn't say, "Hey you guys!" Also, I think Bran will get out of Caster's by warging into Hodor and going all Mountain on those deserters (or so my fandom cries out for). Could be really great if that happens.


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Sorry, long time lurker, not much of a poster, but I think the Caster storyline could be pretty decent. I mean, having Ghost locked up is pretty lame, but whatever. I thought the Great Other or Night's King, whom ever, it's, looked lame as well. Too Sloth for me and surprised he didn't say, "Hey you guys!" Also, I think Bran will get out of Caster's by warging into Hodor and going all Mountain on those deserters (or so my fandom cries out for). Could be really great if that happens.

I'm with you on the Hodor warging front. Keeping all of my fingers and toes crossed for that. Then for Karl to tell Jon they killed Bran and Co. (because he's a mega-douche) so that Jon goes back to thinking he has no family and thus the Stannis offer situation goes back to normal.

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Having read and re-read the books, scoured the forums, watched and re-watched all episodes, I still feel as if there are things they're throwing at us that I needed to have paid attention to but didn't. Like I gotta know who Karl is (soon to be was) now? It's like being Unsullied after countless hours of reading and watching. Sigh.



Thoughts on the episode: I liked the Night King. I miss Shireen. Sansa's not as dumb as she looks. And welcome, Ser Pounce!


Edited by Gran de Lys

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Getting angry over a TV show is a waste of time, really. Look at how angry people got over Jaime-Cersei, it wouldn't erase the scene and the controversy only actually served to bump the viewership for the following episode! I much prefer the books but I'm sympathetic to changes and overlapping as it's simply the nature of the books being unfinished and them being literally impossible to adapt exactly without being stupidly expensive and stupidly confusing.

There were definitely things I didn't like in the episode (Ghost caged, Marge sneaking into Tommen's room unexplained, Locke happening to waltz in as Sam bumbles out a contrived plot point that's coincidentally right), but I thought the vast majority was pretty brilliant.

Hi King Theon, I totally agree that getting angry over a TV show is a waste of time. Which is why I mentioned that I'm not really that angry. But I should not be chastised for having an emotional reaction to something I'm passionate about. That being said, my emotions were not even the point of my original posting. In fact, I regret mentioning it. I'm more interested if my observations/theories have any potential merit according to other people in this forum. I did see all your disagreements about my post. Respectfully point taken.

I would appreciate if others took on the topics I brought up.

thanks!

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After the speculation last week about Bronn maybe deceiving Tyrion I was pleased to see him taking Jaime to task about not going to visit his brother. Bronn isn't squeaky clean but I do think he likes Tyrion enough to want him to survive and for that reason he'll be batting for him even if he's taking someone else's money at some point in the story.



The Jaime / Brienne scenes were great. I don't think it will end up being the big romance others do. Not in the physical sense anyway. But it's nice to see them having meaningful scenes. Wish the Hound had been there commentating when they were discussing what to name the sword.



Will be really pissed if Ghost dies during the upcoming fight at Crasters. Surely one of the direwolves has to live to bite off the face of someone evil and important!



Olenna's remark about throwing herself off the cliff if she makes that walk one more time makes me wonder if it was a throwaway comment or if we'll see her splattered at the bottom of the Kings Landing rockface at some point.


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I was wondering if LF and Sansa are not going to the Fingers, if they are going to do away with the Marillion/Sansa plot. He starts to make advances to her at the Fingers, or are they going to have that scene at the Eyrie.

im curious to see who they blame the lysa murder on since they cut out marilions tongue in the first season

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Except for the whole part of the story where women are being raped in the Riverlands, mutilated by the mountain, hunted down by Ramsay, violated as corpses and even forced to perform bestiality. Other than all those parts, I agree that GRRM does not participate in using rape as a narrative device to indicate evil-ness and powerlessness.

Final comment on the subject, because it has exhausted itself and most important points were made on this page and the one before: All the things on your list are not described in the book. They are stories about things that happened off-page. GRRM hardly ever describes such scenes first-hand to establish a character or a setting. If he did, the books would be unbearable. As was mentioned before: on TV, you hear screams of pain and anguish, you see things as they happen. Apples and oranges. Showing that stuff all the time on screen cannot be excused or explained by saying "Yo, that was in the books, man!". Yes, it was in the books. But used to a very different narrative effect - as a reader, you shudder and hope you will never be in such a scene as witness. The show sadistically puts you there on purpose. Period. Puts it in there to get viewers by showing lots of boobs. Period. 2 out of 3 scenes with sex and nudity don't serve the story, but the reputation of the show as "Game of Tits". Period. It's still a good show, but sometimes boobs are in the way of other scenes that are not adapted. Which bloody annoys me (and hey, I like boobs).

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Ghost isnt going to die, come on.






dont know if anybody posted this yet but did anybody notice the kid in the nightswatch saying hes a very good archer, hes gonna kill ygritte forsure




Yeah that kid is a crack shot and hes gonna do it. Totally. Hes also the Satin of the cast and im way cool with it.





Except for the whole part of the story where women are being raped in the Riverlands, mutilated by the mountain, hunted down by Ramsay, violated as corpses and even forced to perform bestiality. Other than all those parts, I agree that GRRM does not participate in using rape as a narrative device to indicate evil-ness and powerlessness.




loool. Theres so much rape in the books, its kinda insane. But jimmies get rustled when its in a visual medium. I get this whinge, but like, my soup isnt full of tears.




Is anyone else peeved about all this?



Not really. The show is there for me to enjoy and gods dammit all, im going to enjoy it!


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After the speculation last week about Bronn maybe deceiving Tyrion I was pleased to see him taking Jaime to task about not going to visit his brother. Bronn isn't squeaky clean but I do think he likes Tyrion enough to want him to survive and for that reason he'll be batting for him even if he's taking someone else's money at some point in the story.

That's what I thought. I'm starting to doubt whether he didn't actually put Shae on the ship like he said. Anyway, I've got no clue how they're gonna do trial/Shae/Tywin's chambers/Tysha-Cercei-reveal. Looking forward to this very much, but afraid they could mess this up pretty badly.

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