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[Book Spoilers] EP404 Discussion

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Book Jon holds off the wildling attack of Castle Black prior to Thorne and Slynt's arrival. This is a significant key as to why Jon was elevated in status with many of his brothers, as he took command of a skeleton force of mostly untrained men against overwhelming odds and was victorious. In the series, Thorne and Slynt are at Castle Black prior to the wildling invasion, removing from the viewer Jon's ability to strategically command. Throughout HBO's writing of Jon's character, they seem to erode Jon's abilities and have made him not much more of a character than Dolorous Edd. Sam Tarly could be thought to have a better understanding of leadership than series Jon.



Early in the episode Tywin is beginning to train Tomman for leadership. Later in the episode Littlefinger is training Sansa to think in strategic terms. In season 2, Luwin was training Bran about Houses, their words, sigils and alliances. The viewers need to see that Jon can think strategically, and has leadership abilities on a larger scale than skirmishes or when what comes later in the books, viewers will wonder what/who is this Jon Snow.


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Book Jon holds off the wildling attack of Castle Black prior to Thorne and Slynt's arrival. This is a significant key as to why Jon was elevated in status with many of his brothers, as he took command of a skeleton force of mostly untrained men against overwhelming odds and was victorious. In the series, Thorne and Slynt are at Castle Black prior to the wildling invasion, removing from the viewer Jon's ability to strategically command. Throughout HBO's writing of Jon's character, they seem to erode Jon's abilities and have made him not much more of a character than Dolorous Edd. Sam Tarly could be thought to have a better understanding of leadership than series Jon.

Early in the episode Tywin is beginning to train Tomman for leadership. Later in the episode Littlefinger is training Sansa to think in strategic terms. In season 2, Luwin was training Bran about Houses, their words, sigils and alliances. The viewers need to see that Jon can think strategically, and has leadership abilities on a larger scale than skirmishes or when what comes later in the books, viewers will wonder what/who is this Jon Snow.

Well, Jon was given the command by Donal Noye (when he went to defend the gate against Mag the Mighty), so he didn't just take command. His brothers saw that their current acting commander had faith in him.

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Well, Jon was given the command by Donal Noye (when he went to defend the gate against Mag the Mighty), so he didn't just take command. His brothers saw that their current acting commander had faith in him.

:agree: If something like this isn't revealed in the upcoming invasion episode, you have to wonder why HBO writers are continually eroding Jon's strengths, making him stumble along their story-line. Book Jon's arc, from the beginning Arya chapter in AGoT where she looks at his face after the confrontation in the courtyard between Joff and Robb, Jon reveals the inner strength that is shared between all the living Stark kids. So far, the show doesn't project this, his ties with Ghost and only in this episode do they touch on his ability to lead men.

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I think Jon and Ghost reuniting will be key in Jon sussing out Locke's untrustworthy character. None of the direwolves has ever shied away from indicating that someone is a threat, and Ghost is going to see right through Locke's bullshit story. :D

Oh yea and he might have his brother Summer to help out as well. :)

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I'm only halfway through the comments and already kind of disturbed that people who had a problem with the rape scene at Craster's are getting a lot of hate. One commenter on winteriscoming.com said something like "Oh, the feminists are not gonna like that rape scene". WTF? What on earth does one have to do with the other? People who feel the show is too insensitive on the subject are told to go read Harry Potter and stop watching. Again, WTF? Is that what came out of the crypt scene last week? Are there no limits just because "it happened in the books"? In the books, children are raped and mutilated - should we get that onscreen as well? Had Rorge done to Arya what he said he'd do, should we have seen this in close-up?

Nobody argues that the show should not show rape or sex - but it has to serve a purpose to show it, it should be narratologically necessary. If it's not, it's showing rape for the sake of rape, which is problematic. The scene at Craster's was stylising rape in a very uncomfortable way, showing it like this served no purpose. I like that the show doesn't shy away from nudity - but it's getting to a point where it's becoming ridiculous. I sometimes feel that HBO is a teenager testing its limits – which at least for people used to European TV and cinema seems infantile and pathetic - a lame attempt at provocation.

this.

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:agree: If something like this isn't revealed in the upcoming invasion episode, you have to wonder why HBO writers are continually eroding Jon's strengths, making him stumble along their story-line. Book Jon's arc, from the beginning Arya chapter in AGoT where she looks at his face after the confrontation in the courtyard between Joff and Robb, Jon reveals the inner strength that is shared between all the living Stark kids. So far, the show doesn't project this, his ties with Ghost and only in this episode do they touch on his ability to lead men.

I kind of agree, but In the books he have the benefit of his inner monolgues.

Strength? In the Show were shown from the first episode that he very much cares for his family which is a strong part of him. he defends his fellow recruits like Sam from Alliser thus gaining some to his side(like the books) Jon also attempts to ditch the NW to fight in his family's war. He also infiltrates the Wildlings for the NW, falls in love, then abandons her.

What do you mean about his ability to lead men? He's made squire to the LC in the 1st season so he can be groomed to lead someday. If that isn't foreshadowing for the viewers I don't know what is...

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as far as what's likely to happen, if Jon and Bran don't conveniently miss each other at Craster's, i'm not sure how Bran getting north plays out with anything like the tenor of the books. and it may be that it won't, but it would be disappointing. i suspect something may happen to make Jon think Bran and Rickon are dead after all. Ghost should make it, since he's alive in the books, and they can't be that hard up to trim their CGI budget. i hope Bran wargs _someone_ to get them out of this; i half-hoped he'd warg Rast or the one drinking out of Mormont's skull; in that moment, i wanted *someone* to get stabbed.



as far as things i liked about the ep, Brienne and Jaime and Pod are at the top of that list. only section i rewatched.


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How do Jon and Danaerys "wedding" pictures relate to R+L=J?

The theory if true means they are biologically aunt and nephew. Incest might be a "Targaryen" thing, but Jon was raised as a Stark and would never consent.

They don't.

And there are several major issues with that theory.

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I kind of agree, but In the books he have the benefit of his inner monolgues.

Strength? In the Show were shown from the first episode that he very much cares for his family which is a strong part of him. he defends his fellow recruits like Sam from Alliser thus gaining some to his side(like the books) Jon also attempts to ditch the NW to fight in his family's war. He also infiltrates the Wildlings for the NW, falls in love, then abandons her.

What do you mean about his ability to lead men? He's made squire to the LC in the 1st season so he can be groomed to lead someday. If that isn't foreshadowing for the viewers I don't know what is...

It's not like I'm saying the show makes Jon out to be totally lackluster. Yes ,he has made friends and defended them from Thorne's taunts, was made Mormont's steward and defended him against the weights, and infiltrated the wildlings. These are acknowledgments. What I'm questioning is now that HBO has Thorne and Slynt at Castle Black, how is it that Jon will be in charge during the Wildling attack? So far, unlike the books, Jon's sisters don't think back and adopt his traits that helped him cope at Winterfell. Arya remembers Jon's kindness, Sansa thinks of how Jon was when she plays Alayne. We are now at the point in the books where Jon separates himself with his knowledge, courage and general ability from others at the Wall. It's sad to see that the script writers have written in Thorne and Slynt's arrival there before the battle that distinguishes Jon.

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It's not like I'm saying the show makes Jon out to be totally lackluster. Yes ,he has made friends and defended them from Thorne's taunts, was made Mormont's steward and defended him against the weights, and infiltrated the wildlings. These are acknowledgments. What I'm questioning is now that HBO has Thorne and Slynt at Castle Black, how is it that Jon will be in charge during the Wildling attack? So far, unlike the books, Jon's sisters don't think back and adopt his traits that helped him cope at Winterfell. Arya remembers Jon's kindness, Sansa thinks of how Jon was when she plays Alayne. We are now at the point in the books where Jon separates himself with his knowledge, courage and general ability from others at the Wall. It's sad to see that the script writers have written in Thorne and Slynt's arrival there before the battle that distinguishes Jon.

Well, they've set up several things for that:

1. He'll be leading an attack on Craster's Keep.

2. We've seen that Thorne and Slint don't trust him and aren't listening to his advice (unless they have their own motives behind it). I have a feeling that will come up when the Wildlings attack.

3. He's well-liked. The rules of the choosing don't require that someone have experience...they just require one person win a popularity contest. Probably not the best way to do it, but that's how it is. Snow just has to be more popular than the others in the running, and we know that he is.

HBO hasn't made Jon impotent...they've just changed his story around a little bit. But it's no less believable.

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It's not like I'm saying the show makes Jon out to be totally lackluster. Yes ,he has made friends and defended them from Thorne's taunts, was made Mormont's steward and defended him against the weights, and infiltrated the wildlings. These are acknowledgments. What I'm questioning is now that HBO has Thorne and Slynt at Castle Black, how is it that Jon will be in charge during the Wildling attack? So far, unlike the books, Jon's sisters don't think back and adopt his traits that helped him cope at Winterfell. Arya remembers Jon's kindness, Sansa thinks of how Jon was when she plays Alayne. We are now at the point in the books where Jon separates himself with his knowledge, courage and general ability from others at the Wall. It's sad to see that the script writers have written in Thorne and Slynt's arrival there before the battle that distinguishes Jon.

That's a really interesting point. I felt that because they showed so much of Robb's campaign and how adept he was as a war commander that the writers might have decided that showing Jon in a similar fashion might be too much for the viewers to accept that there were these two boys raised together as brothers that both discover themselves as military commanders that's not to say that they will never do so but they could be delaying this development. Jon has proven himself with the infiltration of the wildlings and his scout report. He was the only one that thought strategically about how the mutineers might reveal to Mance that the wall is only manned by a small force. I have heard people rubbishing this idea that Mance would believe Jon's claim that there were a 1000 men at castle black alone, but from Mance Rayder's point of view he doesn't know how indifferent most of westeros are to the Wytes and to the threat of the wildling invasion for all he knows the troops could be pouring in to guard the wall at the very least it would be cause for concern and extra preparation.

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It's not like I'm saying the show makes Jon out to be totally lackluster. Yes ,he has made friends and defended them from Thorne's taunts, was made Mormont's steward and defended him against the weights, and infiltrated the wildlings. These are acknowledgments. What I'm questioning is now that HBO has Thorne and Slynt at Castle Black, how is it that Jon will be in charge during the Wildling attack? So far, unlike the books, Jon's sisters don't think back and adopt his traits that helped him cope at Winterfell. Arya remembers Jon's kindness, Sansa thinks of how Jon was when she plays Alayne. We are now at the point in the books where Jon separates himself with his knowledge, courage and general ability from others at the Wall. It's sad to see that the script writers have written in Thorne and Slynt's arrival there before the battle that distinguishes Jon.

ah, i see...

I agree about alliser and Thorne. I'm pretty sure they'll make Jon out to be the hero somehow and will be made LC some time after that.

They could've handled the Arya/Jon relationship better, oh well. I don't think anyone has forgotten it. Sansa hardly every thinks about him and maybe when she becomes Alayne they'll connect the two. They better Jon plays a big part to the Alayne identity

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I think Jon and Ghost reuniting will be key in Jon sussing out Locke's untrustworthy character. None of the direwolves has ever shied away from indicating that someone is a threat, and Ghost is going to see right through Locke's bullshit story. :D

Yeah that would be pretty neato! And it would add some impact on Ghost's reaction to Mel when she shows up.

Nobody argues that the show should not show rape or sex - but it has to serve a purpose to show it, it should be narratologically necessary. If it's not, it's showing rape for the sake of rape, which is problematic. The scene at Craster's was stylising rape in a very uncomfortable way, showing it like this served no purpose. I like that the show doesn't shy away from nudity - but it's getting to a point where it's becoming ridiculous. I sometimes feel that HBO is a teenager testing its limits – which at least for people used to European TV and cinema seems infantile and pathetic - a lame attempt at provocation.

The thing is, i strongly disagree that the grisly scenes in the background (including the rape) serves no purpose. I have a hard time seeing how anyone could feel any sense of titillation by seeing that. Im pretty sure theres no real "male gaze" going on here considering the image its trying to paint for the viewer. Its there to showcase and underscore the sheer depravity of whats going on at Craster's Keep right now. That, put with Karl being absolutely filthy, and the reddish hellish lighting, and those pigs making noise....thats putting us right into how horrific that whole situation is. Showing us how things are worse with Craster gone rather than better.

It also serves as a part of the contrast of what we see following the Craster's sequences. I think ive explained this a dozen times in the last couple of days. Michelle McLaren was trying to illustrate something the books are constantly reminding us: Things arent always what they seem. There's often two sides to every story. By showing us the absolute depravity of the Keep and then following it with the cold, orderly quiet of the Others, it makes us ponder the Others and ponder how far man can fall. That a baby being taken by an unknowable monster may be preferable to remaining in Craster's Keep. Its there to have us second guess.

I give Michelle McLaren a hats-off for grossing me out to the point where i made this observation. Because if this wasnt her intent, ill eat my bloody hat!

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It's not like I'm saying the show makes Jon out to be totally lackluster. Yes ,he has made friends and defended them from Thorne's taunts, was made Mormont's steward and defended him against the weights, and infiltrated the wildlings. These are acknowledgments. What I'm questioning is now that HBO has Thorne and Slynt at Castle Black, how is it that Jon will be in charge during the Wildling attack? So far, unlike the books, Jon's sisters don't think back and adopt his traits that helped him cope at Winterfell. Arya remembers Jon's kindness, Sansa thinks of how Jon was when she plays Alayne. We are now at the point in the books where Jon separates himself with his knowledge, courage and general ability from others at the Wall. It's sad to see that the script writers have written in Thorne and Slynt's arrival there before the battle that distinguishes Jon.

I think it's very likely that Jon will manage to show his abilities off during the upcoming attack on Castle Black. Alliser and Janos's presence can actually be used to accentuate them. Due to how the battle's been changed, there will be simultaneous fighting on multiple fronts -- both defending Castle Black from the raiders and holding the Wall against Mance's army -- and I think it's very likely that Jon will end up as the sort of defacto leader in one of these engagements. He can distinguish himself there and, because of the sort of people that Alliser and Janos are, it'll have a profound impact on how his brothers view him.

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One thing that bothers me is the long trek Bran made to the Nightfort - one reason given was it was deserted - but book Jojen clearly picked it. It was clearer in the books why they and Sam with Coldhands went all the way there. Why they did so in the show is much less clear. I definitely got the impression they went a lot further north and definitely stayed East of the Milkwater and other main drags. In the show they dragged both Sam - on his own - all the way to the Nightfort without clear reason that I recall. Did the show establish that all the abandoned forts have closed gates? The Nightfort was special in the books. Aside from the tale of the Rat King - nicely placed after the RW - I don't see how the show supports choosing the Nightfort. It seems to take everyone out of the way for no reason. CH took Sam there and Jojen took Bran there and no one told Jon. This made the Jon-Ghost-Summer-weirwood- Bran telegram so intriguing. Now I can't figure how the Bran crew gets all the way south to Crasters, right in the North version of Grand Central Station, so close to The Wall instead of untracked territory, when they could have gotten there a lot quicker via a more Western gate. In the book the went to the Nightfort for a reason. The show doesn't really have those reasons. They could have put the Black Gate anywhere. Unless BR is in a cave below Crasters I don't get it. They might actually need a guide now otherwise, because Jojen doesn't seem to be doing the job and Summer can't even foresee a wolftrap. So they might bring Coldhands on after all.

Edited by rmholt

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One thing that bothers me is the long trek Bran made to the Nightfort - one reason given was it was deserted - but book Jojen clearly picked it. It was clearer in the books why they and Sam with Coldhands went all the way there. Why they did so in the show is much less clear. I definitely got the impression they went a lot further north and definitely stayed East of the Milkwater and other main drags. In the show they dragged both Sam - on his own - all the way to the Nightfort without clear reason that I recall. Did the show establish that all the abandoned forts have closed gates? The Nightfort was special in the books. Aside from the tale of the Rat King - nicely placed after the RW - I don't see how the show supports choosing the Nightfort. It seems to take everyone out of the way for no reason. CH took Sam there and Jojen took Bran there and no one told Jon. This made the Jon-Ghost-Summer-weirwood- Bran telegram so intriguing. Now I can't figure how the Bran crew gets all the way south to Crasters, right in the North version of Grand Central Station, so close to The Wall instead of untracked territory, when they could have gotten there a lot quicker via a more Western gate. In the book the went to the Nightfort for a reason. The show doesn't really have those reasons. They could have put the Black Gate anywhere. Unless BR is in a cave below Crasters I don't get it. They might actually need a guide now otherwise, because Jojen doesn't seem to be doing the job and Summer can't even foresee a wolftrap. So they might bring Coldhands on after all.

In the show Sam says they are going to the NIghtfort because there is a gate they can get through, and he knows this cause he read it in a book. It's where Gilly calls him a wizard.

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In the show Sam says they are going to the NIghtfort because there is a gate they can get through, and he knows this cause he read it in a book. It's where Gilly calls him a wizard.

Sorry to ramble. In the books Nightfort is clearly important. In the show it seems the could have put the Black Gate anywhere.

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Have you been watching the show? Theon told Ramsay last year that the Stark boys were alive, and there was a scene this season where Theon told Roose at Ramsay's behest.

Locke was in that same scene, and Roose told him there was land and a holdfast for him if he found the boys and took care of them. Ramsay also mentioned that taking out Jon as well might be beneficial.

So Locke not only knows that Bran and Rickon are alive, but his exact mission is to make sure that they're not for much longer.

Yeah I finally got around to re-watching the episode and without anyone else watching and I caught that pretty quickly. Locke/Hoat is going for the double assassination.

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Name these "several major issues" please!

starki

GRRM's recently published novella, The Princess and The Queen, makes it quite clear that

an

uncle and a niece can marry, so why not an aunt and a nephew

?

So Jon & Dany will marry, and their Hand will be

Tyrion

; thus, fulfilling the three-headed dragon prophecy. :D

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