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[Book Spoilers] EP404 Discussion

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From what I've seen, a lot of people like and sympathize with Ser Friendzone. Plenty of fucks will be given when Dany exiles him.

An inferior version to the books in every way. You don't just have that scene in isolation. Its the culmination of every Dany/Jorah scene in the series. Most of which happens in ASOS. Most of which D&D cut and replaced with..nothing. Hes been basically mindlessly following Dany for 2 seasons as a glorified extra. You don't just leap into a big scene like that without ANY set up or build up.

Edited by Tyrion1991

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The NK fell in love with a woman who has the same description as the Others, her description is something like "skin as white as moonlight, cold as ice to the touch" IIRC. So in summation NK was a man who had an Other wife and a bunch of freaky and def. NSFW stuff went down with them at the Nightfort before the NK seemingly was taken out.

yes yes, thanks for reminding me of this...is this a story told by Old Nan?

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Not a favorite episode of mine. In fact, I don't think it was a particularly good episode.



No Arya, Hound, or Oberyn.



Deviating from the books in that Sansa is much more vocal and definite in her distrust of Littlefinger.



Why was Craster's last son still alive when the Other brought it to the Great Other Ice Hideout - a newborn, insufficiently wrapped up (chest and and hands exposed), survives for hours in freezing weather? Was the poor kid a super-baby? It should have been at the very least blue-lipped and unconscious by the time they Other'd it.



Why had the mutineers gone to the trouble of keeping Ghost alive and caged? Planning on running a zoo, perhaps? Or to lure Jon Snow and some friends to come for him - why? Made no sense to me. Or were they planning on eating poor Ghost?



Margaery is just so super-cute and charming that she waltzes into the bedroom of the child heir to the Iron Throne late at night unchallenged?



The Queen of Thorns is going home; too bad; I wanted to see a conversation between her and the Red Viper - who's more deadly, at least in terms of conversation?




On the plus side, I loved the Grey Worm/Missandei conversation. And Brienne's new armor is gorgeous.

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This episode totally lines up with my crackpot theory. I will now enlighten you all:



I’d like to throw a curveball into the discussion about who is Azor Ahai.



First I think the timeline is all wrong. Everyone is discussing fully developed characters that will defeat the Others in the near future. What I think everyone is forgetting is that this particular winter will last for a very long time. Azor Ahai has just been born. Not Dany or Jon, AA is an infant. And the Others will only be defeated at the end of a very long winter (15-20 years).



My crackpot theory is none other than “the little monster”, Gilly’s baby. Don’t believe me? I don’t blame you. But hear me out.



Similar to the Night’s King story, a member of the Night’s Watch, who is a Targaryen sired a son from a Wildling (or female Other a la the Night’s King). There are only two potential candidates, Brynden Rivers or Aemon Targaryen. The mother tries to return her baby to Castle Black but is chased off. She eventually raises the baby, who grows up to be the bastard Craster.



Craster is allowed to live but has vowed to always sacrifice his male heirs to the Others. Why? Because the Others foresee Azor Ahai being born and try to prevent it. The bloodline is preserved because Craster is a monster whose coat of arms should read “Breeding Inwards”.



But seriously Craster’s action mirror the biblical Herod ordering the death of male babies because of a prophecy. There are also parallels of Kronos devouring his sons because he is destined to be overcome by his own sons. FYI from Wikipedia Robert Graves proposed that cronos meant "crow", related to the Ancient Greek word corōnē (κορώνη) "crow", noting that Cronus was depicted with a crow, as were the deities Apollo, Asclepius, Saturn and Bran.While the birth of Gilly’s son can’t exactly be lined up with the waking of dragons, the Others seemed keen to put an end to him. Don’t discount the little guy.



And I still think the timeline is off. At least a decade or more will pass before the novels come to a close. Lots of everyone’s favorite characters will die, in the south to war and disease, in the north to starvation and Others.


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I don't think Wights go wondering on their own, Others come with them. Sure they are probably being turned into others, but that idea is a theory presented by a distressed wife of Craster. That doesn't mean that is what happens, and it doesnt explain how it happens. Some say the sky is blue because they live inside the eye of a blue eyed giant. Hearsay is one thing. Authoritative exhibition is another.

No one should be surprised that Jon Snow is the love child of R+L. That doesn't mean the show should tell us before George does and everyone be okay with it because it was implied.

Maybe George should hurry on up then and get moving. Of course the show is going to catch up.

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Why do people keep calling the shows changes "fan fiction"? There are significant changes sure, some I like, some I don't, but they are being written with explicit knowledge of how the series ends with freaking GRRM himself as a consultant and a 1-ep per season writer. People are acting like the show doesn't even vaguely resemble the books in any way any more.


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yes yes, thanks for reminding me of this...is this a story told by Old Nan?

It is. It's a story I think most of the children in the north grow up hearing.

Also super unrelated but someone posted R+L=Hodor in the AV Club Review Comments and it made my night. :drunk:

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Not a favorite episode of mine. In fact, I don't think it was a particularly good episode.

No Arya, Hound, or Oberyn.

Deviating from the books in that Sansa is much more vocal and definite in her distrust of Littlefinger.

Why was Craster's last son still alive when the Other brought it to the Great Other Ice Hideout - a newborn, insufficiently wrapped up (chest and and hands exposed), survives for hours in freezing weather? Was the poor kid a super-baby? It should have been at the very least blue-lipped and unconscious by the time they Other'd it.

Why had the mutineers gone to the trouble of keeping Ghost alive and caged? Planning on running a zoo, perhaps? Or to lure Jon Snow and some friends to come for him - why? Made no sense to me. Or were they planning on eating poor Ghost?

Margaery is just so super-cute and charming that she waltzes into the bedroom of the child heir to the Iron Throne late at night unchallenged?

The Queen of Thorns is going home; too bad; I wanted to see a conversation between her and the Red Viper - who's more deadly, at least in terms of conversation?

On the plus side, I loved the Grey Worm/Missandei conversation. And Brienne's new armor is gorgeous.

I think they kept Craster's son alive to show the baby's transformation.

Since TV!Ghost growls (where Book!Ghost is completely silent), perhaps the mutineer pices of shit are keeping him around to provide a warning signal of advancing wights/Others. I predict that I will enjoy watching Ghost fuck Rast's shit up next Sunday. :)

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Hmm... I dunno, man... I dunno...



This episode.



How the hell did they manage to cage Ghost up? And why did they even bother - is an even better question. I dunno how I feel about this whole Other thing. I feel like they revealed it way too early, but whatever. Still plenty to learn about 'em I suppose. Tho, I didn't like the fact that that horned weirdo is the Night's King. He didn't look nearly as mysterious and interesting. And I'll also echo what others have said; that baby would've died before Rast or w/e the hell his name is put it down. But they're probably going with 'the-Other's-magic-protected-the-baby.'



And I dunno why, but I'm really starting to like Locke. I can only imagine what he's up to, but it's gonna be big.


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An inferior version to the books in every way. You don't just have that scene in isolation. Its the culmination of every Dany/Jorah scene in the series. Most of which happens in ASOS. Most of which D&D cut and replaced with..nothing. Hes been basically mindlessly following Dany for 2 seasons as a glorified extra. You don't just leap into a big scene like that without ANY set up or build up.

I'm sure there will be a little build up, but it is no question but the biggest misuse of a talented actor (Iian Glen) in the entire series. Two seasons of exposition guy, followed by two seasons as an extra. What a waste... If they are inventing story-lines and subplots, why not give one of your top end talents something to do?

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And no Mace :( :(

And no Arya :(

No Tywin, amazingly, and no Stannis The Mannis.

It's even worse than you think. NO TYWIN!! (And No Arya!)

Excuse me but none of them have orgies and are sex on a stick like the Viper.. Ok, maybe Olenna.

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This episode totally lines up with my crackpot theory. I will now enlighten you all:

I’d like to throw a curveball into the discussion about who is Azor Ahai.

First I think the timeline is all wrong. Everyone is discussing fully developed characters that will defeat the Others in the near future. What I think everyone is forgetting is that this particular winter will last for a very long time. Azor Ahai has just been born. Not Dany or Jon, AA is an infant. And the Others will only be defeated at the end of a very long winter (15-20 years).

My crackpot theory is none other than “the little monster”, Gilly’s baby. Don’t believe me? I don’t blame you. But hear me out.

Similar to the Night’s King story, a member of the Night’s Watch, who is a Targaryen sired a son from a Wildling (or female Other a la the Night’s King). There are only two potential candidates, Brynden Rivers or Aemon Targaryen. The mother tries to return her baby to Castle Black but is chased off. She eventually raises the baby, who grows up to be the bastard Craster.

Craster is allowed to live but has vowed to always sacrifice his male heirs to the Others. Why? Because the Others foresee Azor Ahai being born and try to prevent it. The bloodline is preserved because Craster is a monster whose coat of arms should read “Breeding Inwards”.

But seriously Craster’s action mirror the biblical Herod ordering the death of male babies because of a prophecy. There are also parallels of Kronos devouring his sons because he is destined to be overcome by his own sons. FYI from Wikipedia Robert Graves proposed that cronos meant "crow", related to the Ancient Greek word corōnē (κορώνη) "crow", noting that Cronus was depicted with a crow, as were the deities Apollo, Asclepius, Saturn and Bran.While the birth of Gilly’s son can’t exactly be lined up with the waking of dragons, the Others seemed keen to put an end to him. Don’t discount the little guy.

And I still think the timeline is off. At least a decade or more will pass before the novels come to a close. Lots of everyone’s favorite characters will die, in the south to war and disease, in the north to starvation and Others.

I like this crackpot theory...but I must confess, I'm keen on most crackpot....theories.

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What. The. Fuck.


Bullshit on Ghost in a cage and Bran and company getting captured.


I miss hating Joffery.


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Summer will rescue Ghost, just as Jon arrives, Jon, his boys' and the Wolfes will rescue Bran and the Reeds.They will then butcher the mutineers. Hodor dies, Bran enters his body and carries himself north to find a three eyed crow. Jon goes back to the wall to wait to get stabbed in the back.


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On another note, Mance Rayder has apparently been cribbing from Danny's invasion playbook. His advance on the Wall could be measured in geological time.



I realize they are saving all the marbles for episode 9, but maybe they should have mixed it up a little and had the battle staged earlier in the season.


That said, I'm all on board with the show giving Bran a subplot that wasn't another season of hiking/sledding Northwards, however a visit to Rape Town might not have been my first choice. And while I like the actor playing Tanner(?), who would have made a great Ramsey Bolton IMHO, do we really need another raper in our midst? I just found the whole story-line more exhausting than anything else. A lot of GOT style mustache twirling.


Edited by pleonasm

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HBO just seems to be streamlining the story by blending/ommitting characters and revealing plots in differently than expected, all to convey the bigger picture that GRRM has outlined for them....... so I'm going to sit back and enjoy the ride


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