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[Book Spoilers] EP404 Discussion

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Olenna is standing at a different table, and would have had to walk a good 10 feet (in front of a guard, no less) to do it. Possible, but not particularly intelligent on her part.

I guess the show probably changed the timing for the poison to take effect, but the logistics of it irk me.

And me as well. It would have been splendid to see it happening, however slyly - for those who looked. They were subtle, and not a little.

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What if the Others have more benign designs on Westeros?



That thought crossed my head, though it was briefly scrubbed by the memory of the ravages they have done thus far.


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What if the Others have more benign designs on Westeros?

That thought crossed my head, though it was briefly scrubbed by the memory of the ravages they have done thus far.

The final scenes of this episode actually make you ponder this and thats why i love it so much.

As for Locke, id love for him to turn into a Good Guy or at very least Team Jon, but its just not going to happen. The show might tease us with it though.

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I am into the changes being made in character arc from book to show. That being said now that Bran and Jon are on course to connect once they do how could you separate them other than in death. And we must have Stannis arrive at the Wall, and when he does he would find an heir to Winterfell in Bran. It's becoming Helter skelter. Will the Hound and Ayra hook up with LF and Sansa? There will be omitted story lines in order to bring this to a close in 3-4 years. In depth of story a tv show can not compete with a book. But we are certainly being entertained. I do hope some of the book is omitted, only to give more development into what has already been presented to us. Thinking about the monumental task that is before them in the tv production , Now Dany, IF if she is one day to land in Westeros I for one would be okay in not seeing her until that day, Maybe the Doom of Valyria could hit her part of the world, again, and cut off communication for the now.


Anyways we shall all enjoy til then.


Edited by Cold Hands warm heart

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Could have been Aerys. Would definitely be a reason to avoid marriage.

I doubt it was Aerys; he and Rhaelle were married off young to each other (unhappily) due to that "woods witch" prophesy, so there doesn't seem to be much chance of Olenna being betrothed to Aerys.

But the Targ royal tree is kind of short of other candidates of the right age. Jaehaerys was likely too much older than Olenna and already married to a woman of his choosing; plus it would be odd of her to duck out on a marriage to the ruling King just on the grounds that he was Frey-faced. The most likely option was Egg's unknown third son, who would be about the right age, except supposedly Egg let all his sons marry for love, and this sounds like it was an arranged marriage.

So maybe one of the kids of Egg's unknown son was Olenna's disliked Targaryen match, but if so it makes me wonder what happened to that Targ branch. Did they all die off? Or is this just more random lore-creation by the showrunners, like "Orys I"?

Edited by Rill Redthorn

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The final scenes of this episode actually make you ponder this and thats why i love it so much.

As for Locke, id love for him to turn into a Good Guy or at very least Team Jon, but its just not going to happen. The show might tease us with it though.

I'm not sure what they are going to do with Locke at The Wall. I figured he'd probably die in the Wildling attack.

Edited by Tall Tyrion Lannister!

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The final scenes of this episode actually make you ponder this and thats why i love it so much.

As for Locke, id love for him to turn into a Good Guy or at very least Team Jon, but its just not going to happen. The show might tease us with it though.

Noah Taylor is such an excellent actor. I almost bought his bonding with Jon at Castle Black.

TLK :cool4:

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Hey folks,

The main reason I came here was to get some more feedback/understanding about Locke being at the wall. I think Locke is a redeveloped Hoat, not a Marsh transplant. However, it just occurred to me though, one of the biggest changes from the books to the T.V. series is how Theon and Ramsey meet. In the show, Ramsey wasn't at Winterfell to aid in the murder and cover-up of the Stark boy's "deaths." This would imply that Locke cannot know about Bran or Rickon being alive. So maybe he was sent there by Bolton to make up for Jamie's hand and kill Jon. What I love most about this change is that none of us know for sure, so it's like reading the books :-)

However, all that being said, we're getting robbed of the whole death by ear bite sequence.

Have you been watching the show? Theon told Ramsay last year that the Stark boys were alive, and there was a scene this season where Theon told Roose at Ramsay's behest.

Locke was in that same scene, and Roose told him there was land and a holdfast for him if he found the boys and took care of them. Ramsay also mentioned that taking out Jon as well might be beneficial.

So Locke not only knows that Bran and Rickon are alive, but his exact mission is to make sure that they're not for much longer.

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I am curious about what will happen to Craster's wives/daughters after the mutineers are taken out? Will they bring them back to Castle Black and then Mole's Town to join Gilly? I can't remember what happened to them in the book. I think Cold Hands cleared out the mutineers, but what happened to the wives?


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I've watched this episode more than ten times now and what was the most pointless and boring scene to me at first viewing is now the most intriguing .


i am talking about the Missandei and greyworm scene at the beginning .It clearly shows us the level of animosity greyworm has for the masters and the blossoming romance between the two. I wonder if in the book and on the show greyworm will become increasingly unhappy with how Danny progresses with her emancipation of the slaves of slavers bay to the point were he comes to see Daenerys as a master and plots to kill her using missandei .it could also tie in with the prophecy that Dany will be betrayed for love.


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I've watched this episode more than ten times now and what was the most pointless and boring scene to me at first viewing is now the most intriguing .

i am talking about the Missandei and greyworm scene at the beginning .It clearly shows us the level of animosity greyworm has for the masters and the blossoming romance between the two. I wonder if in the book and on the show greyworm will become increasingly unhappy with how Danny progresses with her emancipation of the slaves of slavers bay to the point were he comes to see Daenerys as a master and plots to kill her using missandei .it could also tie in with the prophecy that Dany will be betrayed for love.

I really hope not, but then I really wish they hadn't put in the part you liked (not because you like it or it was bad, but because I think it goes against the books). Also, it wasted time that could have been used to show more of the actual conquest of Mereen.

Edited by ground_control

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I'm not quite ensorcelled by Locke, and have a knee-jerk reaction against him - but perhaps this will change in future. If he's written as being as educated as you say, and given some material motivation, then, just maybe, I'll turn.

So far this season, Jon looks to be using what he learned growing up as the son of the Lord of Winterfell. That is, having the wisdom to read between the muddled lines and see the bigger picture in order to make a good decision. In this episode, Tywin brings Tomman to value wisdom in the first lesson he gave him. Tywin also uses Robert as an example to show the difference between winning and ruling. Jon received the same education as Robb, and Robb gave Tywin all that he could handle until he broke his word to Walder Frey, so Jon's decision making ability may be similar or perhaps better than Robb's. Also, he would have been around when Ned tried to ferret out the truth from those he was Lord over. So Jon has the ability to detect inconsistencies in a story. Locke appears to be educated and reveals that he fights like a well trained soldier but tells Jon that he was a gamekeeper. Jon may be suspicious why Locke having these abilities would be used as a gamekeeper when those abilities were valued significantly higher by a Lord.

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So far this season, Jon looks to be using what he learned growing up as the son of the Lord of Winterfell. That is, having the wisdom to read between the muddled lines and see the bigger picture in order to make a good decision. In this episode, Tywin brings Tomman to value wisdom in the first lesson he gave him. Tywin also uses Robert as an example to show the difference between winning and ruling. Jon received the same education as Robb, and Robb gave Tywin all that he could handle until he broke his word to Walder Frey, so Jon's decision making ability may be similar or perhaps better than Robb's. Also, he would have been around when Ned tried to ferret out the truth from those he was Lord over. So Jon has the ability to detect inconsistencies in a story. Locke appears to be educated and reveals that he fights like a well trained soldier but tells Jon that he was a gamekeeper. Jon may be suspicious why Locke having these abilities would be used as a gamekeeper when those abilities were valued significantly higher by a Lord.

If I were a brother of the nights watch Id be suspicious of every person that joined . They are mostly rapists and murdering thieves . i don't know why people would expect Jon to be suspicious of Lockes story in particular . He would never suspect that Locke had any ulterior motives .I would imagine its not uncommon for recruits to make up bullshit stories of why they ended up at the wall. If Jon suspected lockes story was bs he would just take it that Locke was a deserter from the war.

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If I were a brother of the nights watch Id be suspicious of every person that joined . They are mostly rapists and murdering thieves . i don't know why people would expect Jon to be suspicious of Lockes story in particular . He would never suspect that Locke had any ulterior motives .I would imagine its not uncommon for recruits to make up bullshit stories of why they ended up at the wall. If Jon suspected lockes story was bs he would just take it that Locke was a deserter from the war.

I believe that the writers have spent 3 1/2 seasons telling Jon's story and we haven't seen too much of what makes Jon a focal part of this whole saga. Really, other than he can fight better than most recruits, had a direwolf and got to know about wildlings, what has he done to make the viewer believe that he has any leadership ability. The writers look to be inventing a storyline that can reveal to the audience that Jon has the ability to be a leader. One way to so it is for him to ferret out Locke's motive for being (1) at the Wall and (2) joining up to go to Craster's.

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I think Jon and Ghost reuniting will be key in Jon sussing out Locke's untrustworthy character. None of the direwolves has ever shied away from indicating that someone is a threat, and Ghost is going to see right through Locke's bullshit story. :D


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