Butterfly effect: Now Jon knows... (Huge Spoilers)

[sj4iy]

Did they? Thats kind of disappointing.

I think it would be kind of confusing myself. We've spent 4 years seeing White Walkers and dead people trying to kill the living. Suddenly a dead guy comes out of nowhere who wants to help? We don't know who he is or how he's alive, or why he's even bothering. It doesn't make sense, even in the books, so I can see why they would want to cut it out of the show if there aren't any future ramifications from it.

[sj4iy]

Could not agree more!

As I posted on another thread, this change really annoyed me because:

(1) in the books, Sam knowing that Jon's brother, any other Stark at this point, is living, but being oath-bound not to tell him, is one of the most poignant moments in the entire series

(2) even worse, the fact that Jon was told about it was just mentioned in an off hand way - if D&D were going to reveal it, at least they should have made it a significant scene!

I did not even think of the butterfly / hurricane impact on the Jon/Stannis relationship...

This, it seems to me, is a second botch up by D&D on in relation to Bran - the first being how they handled Bran & Rickon's supposed murder in Season2/3: (1) Cat and Rob were informed at the beginning of Season 3 not that Bran and Rickon are dead, killed by Theon, but that they are merely missing and (2) worse yet, Cat had already released Jaime at the end of Season 2, i.e. before she got this information. To me, this both detracted from Cat's character (in the books she only released Jaime thinking her two younger sons dead and thus desperately focusing on saving her girls) and somewhat dulled the horror of the Red Weddins - in the books, the dying Cat thinks it is her last, her only remaining, son that is being killed at the Twins.

How can they botch up a story that GRRM himself is producing and helping to write? Surely he would have been like "Oh, wait, that would screw it all up if you did that". They aren't 'botching' the story, they are making the changes necessary to bring it to screen.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

How can they botch up a story that GRRM himself is producing and helping to write? Surely he would have been like "Oh, wait, that would screw it all up if you did that". They aren't 'botching' the story, they are making the changes necessary to bring it to screen.

They botch up book made movies all the time. I read somewhere (not sure if its true) the GRRM writes about 10% of an episode. It's not as if they have to OK every change with GRRM. Also whether or not something is 'botched' is kind of in the eye of the beholder isn't it? What might have ruined it for you may be a welcome change for me and vice versa

[sj4iy]

They botch up book made movies all the time. I read somewhere (not sure if its true) the GRRM writes about 10% of an episode. It's not as if they have to OK every change with GRRM. Also whether or not something is 'botched' is kind of in the eye of the beholder isn't it? What might have ruined it for you may be a welcome change for me and vice versa

Well, if the show is written in a way similar to most other shows, the writers meet with each other to nail down what they want to do in the season and to assign the stories to each writer before they are ever written. Since he's a producer and a writer on the show, I doubt that he doesn't have some say in some of the bigger changes that are made. "Eye of the beholder" or not, you can't say something is 'botched' when the author of the original story is help writing the material. You can 'I don't like the changes', but just because you don't like the changes doesn't mean that they've irrevocably screwed up the story.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

My only real question about the changes with Jon is Locke: Will the show kill him off this season, or will they have him survive long enough to make him the instigator of the mutiny and see him put a knife in Jon's stomach instead of Bowen Marsh next season? Perhaps even have him be the writer or architect of the Pink Letter?

I guess we'll see.

D&D are making Stannis backstaab Jon Snow with a fork. It is known.

[Moët]

It won't matter if Jon knows because:

1. Bran & co will escape Craster's before Jon & co arrive, and they won't meet up.

2. Jon could keep an eye on Bran for awhile if he could control his warging abilities....... *sigh*

[MrsManderly]

How can they botch up a story that GRRM himself is producing and helping to write? Surely he would have been like "Oh, wait, that would screw it all up if you did that". They aren't 'botching' the story, they are making the changes necessary to bring it to screen.

Ok, "botch up" may be too strong a term - the show is obviously a massive challenge to produce and it's easy to be a "couch director" and say one could have done it better...

But it is I think reasonably well established that D&D are calling the shots on the series and, while GRRM is consulted, he does not have editorial veto on the show. Moreover, GRRM has on several occasions pointed out that their departures from the books (many of which are of course warranted by change from book to screen) do lead to ever increasing divregence from the books and has, it seemed to me, sought to slightly distance his vision in the books from D&D's in the show. The most striking example of this was GRRM's quoted reaction to the Jaime/Cersei "Rapegate" last week, where he took pains to point out that this scene plays out very differently in the books and, without saying explicitly that the show makers (or more likely the episode director) got the scene wrong, he seemed to indicate his disapproval of how it was handled.

[Konradsmith]

I don't know if anyone's suggested this yet on this thread, but I think it's possible that if Bran escapes CK before Jon and co. arrive, that Karl could just lie to Jon and say he killed Bran just to be a spiteful prick. This would put everything back to how it is in the books and would actually make Jon feel even shittier about his brother's supposed death.

[MrsManderly]

I don't know if anyone's suggested this yet on this thread, but I think it's possible that if Bran escapes CK before Jon and co. arrive, that Karl could just lie to Jon and say he killed Bran just to be a spiteful prick. This would put everything back to how it is in the books and would actually make Jon feel even shittier about his brother's supposed death.

Oooh.. me likey!

[Konradsmith]

^Thanks! Anyhow I thought that might be a possibility. I really doubt, doubt, doubt that they'll have them reunite. This is Queenscrown 2.0 more than anything, just another tragic almost-reunion rather than an alteration that's going to end up butterfly-effecting the character's fates down the toilet.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

^Thanks! Anyhow I thought that might be a possibility. I really doubt, doubt, doubt that they'll have them reunite. This is Queenscrown 2.0 more than anything, just another tragic almost-reunion rather than an alteration that's going to end up butterfly-effecting the character's fates down the toilet.

almost. But he yet would susspect Rickon is alive, cause he knows by Sam he wasnt with Bran.

[sj4iy]

Ok, "botch up" may be too strong a term - the show is obviously a massive challenge to produce and it's easy to be a "couch director" and say one could have done it better...

But it is I think reasonably well established that D&D are calling the shots on the series and, while GRRM is consulted, he does not have editorial veto on the show. Moreover, GRRM has on several occasions pointed out that their departures from the books (many of which are of course warranted by change from book to screen) do lead to ever increasing divregence from the books and has, it seemed to me, sought to slightly distance his vision in the books from D&D's in the show. The most striking example of this was GRRM's quoted reaction to the Jaime/Cersei "Rapegate" last week, where he took pains to point out that this scene plays out very differently in the books and, without saying explicitly that the show makers (or more likely the episode director) got the scene wrong, he seemed to indicate his disapproval of how it was handled.

"Rapegate" was about the most overblown overreaction that I've seen to a tv show in a long, long time. But I won't get off-topic...D&D have no choice but to change things because the timing in the books wouldn't work in the show. You can't just skip a character for most of the season before coming back to him or her. Martin will always prefer the books because they are HIS vision...the show is someone else's vision of his words. But I would bet that there are things about the show he liked better than what he did in the books, as well. That's just how it is.

[Lord Damian]

I am not that disapointed in the show regarding certain scenes and timelines. What i am dissapointed in, is the whitewashing of characters to make them seem less evil or dark, still not making them lilly white mind you but brushing them up like Tyrion, Cersei and Dany. I do love the expanded roles for Tywin and Bronn.

[Widows_Blood]

I posted this in another thread but,

The show is really starting to get into possible future book events. I`m intrigued whether the whole Jon learning about Bran being alive is something that happens in a future book and the show decided to get it out of the way rather then doing it in season 6 or 7. The whole Sansa not being a killer yet, Whitewalker stuff, has me thinking the show is laying down the tracks for future seasons as well.

[Biobiwan]

It seems like a really long ride from Craster's to wherever one would expect the HQ of the White Walkers to be. Presumably its in the Lands of Always Winter, hundreds of miles from Craster's, across a forbidding mountain range. Even if we stipulate the WW have magic "don't get frostbite" powers with their affinity to cold, a baby would die of dehydration and starvation before reaching it. Unless WWs can also nurse newborns...

I agree. There were snares. It is really not as unlikely or "laughable" as people are saying that Ghost could be trapped. He is a very big wolf, but still a wolf.

[Biobiwan]

Jon Snow & Company = Coldhands

[dbunting]

Ok, can't read all 20 pages before airing my thoughts.

I have no problem with this change. If they followed the books then Bran would have no scenes for a season or two, and if he is a central person then you can't have him just disappear.

My crackpot thoughts. Bran skinchanges into Hodor and frees the wolves, they make their escape or help the battle when Jon and company arrive. The "good guys" win the battle and Jon and Bran talk. Bran shows Jon his warging ability and a scene possibly with a weirwood tree? Bran did try to talk to Jon through Ghost so maybe this replaces that? Jojen potentially gives Jon clue or hint to his parentage. Bran convinces Jon that he has to find 3EC or the wights will win. Jon gets an emo face and lets Bran keep going North.

[Biobiwan]

Ok, can't read all 20 pages before airing my thoughts.

I have no problem with this change. If they followed the books then Bran would have no scenes for a season or two, and if he is a central person then you can't have him just disappear.

My crackpot thoughts. Bran skinchanges into Hodor and frees the wolves, they make their escape or help the battle when Jon and company arrive. The "good guys" win the battle and Jon and Bran talk. Bran shows Jon his warging ability and a scene possibly with a weirwood tree? Bran did try to talk to Jon through Ghost so maybe this replaces that? Jojen potentially gives Jon clue or hint to his parentage. Bran convinces Jon that he has to find 3EC or the wights will win. Jon gets an emo face and lets Bran keep going North.

and then there's the Locke factor

[Dorne Sand]

How can they botch up a story that GRRM himself is producing and helping to write? Surely he would have been like "Oh, wait, that would screw it all up if you did that". They aren't 'botching' the story, they are making the changes necessary to bring it to screen.

GRRM is no god. I liked the "wall arc" and what goes beyond just as it was in the book i fully agree with "botched" comment. That changes has to be done ok, but i just don't like the changes they/he made. And i think even for a tv show they are badly made.

It begun in the previous episode with sam sending gilly to moles town when he knows that they are wildlings on the wrong side of the wall to say the next episode "oh shit ! they are wildlings on the wrong side of the wall attacking villages and gilly is now in danger!"

the casual "oh by the way one of you brother is alive", the training in the yard stopped by allister without any mention of how that could be usefull against armed wildlings

Oh by the way i don't see any kind of preparation of a fight coming on castle black and the excuse of allister to send john away is very lame while the danger is very much present and that they mention the obvious lack of men to defend it

Oh and look what a coincidence! just when john will attack the mutiners in crasters the same that kept his wolf alive for what the hell reason, his wolf that apparently in all previous episodes he don't give a fig about, just then, bran is captured by the same mutiners who has set up a trap for some strange reason, trap in which haha! summer falls in and now look they are captured

As if they didn't have a guy that had green dreams travelling with them...

Up until now i didn't mind any of the changes, some even i found great

Not this. Is it about ressources? No, the changes they made imply more action than needed? About time? no, the sam gilly part is absurd as the crasters scene could have saved some precious time. On the contrary they needed to show the characters and needed some action to do so? Well personally I think it is wrong. I loved low paced show with a lot of dialogues in just like True detective or the wire for instance. What the hell, you are bringing to screen a 10000 thousand pages book surely you can't need to add plots that are not there! And i don't speak about scenes, but full plots

Could we have some beautifully written dialogues involving sam, john, aemon? some dialogues where we could have felt the missed wolf, and sam telling john about bran (if you need him to know for any reason at all)? couldn't we have built up the tension on the wall with john and allister arguing about the defenses of castle black for exemple or made the watch pardon to john going wildling longuer ? Any other plot with more sense and logic? a plot where just as they made with jaime showed us some character insigths and changes?

I don't know where they are going, but since the former episode i didn't understand and really i understand less and less. I always looked at the Bran arc north of the wall as some kind of homage to frodon trip, a lonely trip, yes boring but poetic on his own with the always present and creepy feeling of someone travelling to his own doom. The john's arc was one of my favorite with his guilt about being a "double turncloack" his rise in the watch etc etc

And worst of all i don't see any kind of benefit for the changes they made even on a TV show adaptation necessity side. they added complexity where the book is straigth forward, they added incoherent plots and moves that even without reading the book seem stupid and some non reader i know just found this episode plainly boring

[Hippocras]

Ok, can't read all 20 pages before airing my thoughts.I have no problem with this change. If they followed the books then Bran would have no scenes for a season or two, and if he is a central person then you can't have him just disappear.My crackpot thoughts. Bran skinchanges into Hodor and frees the wolves, they make their escape or help the battle when Jon and company arrive. The "good guys" win the battle and Jon and Bran talk. Bran shows Jon his warging ability and a scene possibly with a weirwood tree? Bran did try to talk to Jon through Ghost so maybe this replaces that? Jojen potentially gives Jon clue or hint to his parentage. Bran convinces Jon that he has to find 3EC or the wights will win. Jon gets an emo face and lets Bran keep going North.

Also the actor is growing up so fast that if they left him out for a season, no one would recognize him. :D

Think about it. Without a few changes, all we will see is him going ever north, being cold, making fires.....and we already saw that with Sam and Gilly.