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Butterfly effect: Now Jon knows... (Huge Spoilers)


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I don't know if anyone's suggested this yet on this thread, but I think it's possible that if Bran escapes CK before Jon and co. arrive, that Karl could just lie to Jon and say he killed Bran just to be a spiteful prick. This would put everything back to how it is in the books and would actually make Jon feel even shittier about his brother's supposed death.

It has been mentioned, but I think that's the best possible outcome. I really, really don't want Bran and Jon to meet at this point. If anything, I would find it satisfying if Jojen sensed (or had a vision of) Jon's warging abilities. As I've said before, given that Jon and Ghost were separated by the Wall at Queenscrown, and Jon's link with his direwolf was severed (at least in the books), Jojen's ability to sense another warg in the Stark family was probably hampered. Alternatively, the Greenseer/3EC wasn't concerned with pointing out Bran's family's abilities to Jojen, but I like the idea of Jojen sussing this information out.

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Not to mention it isn't near as hard for Jon to refuse Winterfell when he knows there are trueborn heirs living. It said something for his character that he continued to refuse what he has always wanted. That's taken away if he knows Bran is alive.

Actually, if I remember correctly, he refused in the books because Sansa was still alive and by the laws of Westeros even a daughter would come before a bastard. So in terms of Jon's choice, the show change doesn't change that much.

I don't know if anyone's suggested this yet on this thread, but I think it's possible that if Bran escapes CK before Jon and co. arrive, that Karl could just lie to Jon and say he killed Bran just to be a spiteful prick. This would put everything back to how it is in the books and would actually make Jon feel even shittier about his brother's supposed death.

Oh... my... gods... that would be so cruel (and yet so good).

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And also, forget what Roose promised [Locke]. Once he takes the oath, he's completely screwed. Even if he succeeds in retrieving Bran, he can't ever leave the NW.

If the writers want Locke to be able to leave the wall, they will write a way for him to do so. Period.

(Going "missing" north of the wall, faking his own death, taking on a disguise and/or different name, having the Boltons protect him, etc etc etc. It's hardly some sort of insurmountable plot obstacle.)

However, I suspect Locke dies before this becomes an issue... we "know" he can't kill Bran or Jon, so his quest is doomed to failure.

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If the writers want Locke to be able to leave the wall, they will write a way for him to do so. Period.

(Going "missing" north of the wall, faking his own death, taking on a disguise and/or different name, having the Boltons protect him, etc etc etc. It's hardly some sort of insurmountable plot obstacle.)

However, I suspect Locke dies before this becomes an issue... we "know" he can't kill Bran or Jon, so his quest is doomed to failure.

I'm pretty sure Locke is being positioned there more long-term - to take Bowen Marsh's role eventually...

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I don't think Locke will be killed off just yet.



He adds some character to the NW plot and Noah Taylor is an excellent actor so the writers will probably want to take advantage of that.



However, I wonder what him being at the Wall could add to the Stannis/Bolton conflict?

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I'm pretty sure Locke is being positioned there more long-term - to take Bowen Marsh's role eventually...

I just mentionedt his in another thread: Locke is already replacing Vargo Hoat; I can't see why they would then have him replace yet another book character. We're also overlooking the fact that Jon will soon have his direwolf back, and Ghost is a damn good judge of character. He'll let Jon know (one way or another - and I hope by biting Locke's hand!) that Locke is not to be trusted. :D

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Actually, if I remember correctly, he refused in the books because Sansa was still alive and by the laws of Westeros even a daughter would come before a bastard. So in terms of Jon's choice, the show change doesn't change that much.

Not 100% sure but I think Sansa is not brought into play in this decision because she is originally under Lannister control & then married to a Lannister & then is MIA. If I feel ambitious in a little bit I'll try to look it up & see where exactly Sansa was at the time but I have thought this whole time she was out of commission for one reason or another.

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I just mentionedt his in another thread: Locke is already replacing Vargo Hoat; I can't see why they would then have him replace yet another book character. We're also overlooking the fact that Jon will soon have his direwolf back, and Ghost is a damn good judge of character. He'll let Jon know (one way or another - and I hope by biting Locke's hand!) that Locke is not to be trusted. :D

Noah Taylor should just take on the roles of each remaining character yet to be cast. It just makes sense.

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Noah Taylor should just take on the roles of each remaining character yet to be cast. It just makes sense.

I would have no problem with that if the make-up department can turn him into the Pomegranate and he no longer looks like Locke. :) Locke, on the other hand, must do what all men do: Valar Morghulis. :D

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I don't know it depends how this whole Craster scenario plays out, maybe it'll end with Jon thinking Bran is dead or something. I can't see Jon letting Bran go deeper north willingly so their going to have to handle it all somehow. D&D hate Stannis anyway so I always assume any cool part of his story will get cut out anyway.

I think the whole farya thing will play out because of the fact that D&D seem to be really into the whole Theon story and it wouldn't be really all that hard to introduce some girl as farya later on. They could even wait till Ramsays wedding for that matter.

I'm thinking Bran and company will escape when Jon and company attack, and Bran and Jon won't even cross paths, maybe Jon sees something to make him believe Bran is now dead.

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Noah Taylor should just take on the roles of each remaining character yet to be cast. It just makes sense.

Noah Taylor as Aegon! Book it, done.

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It has been said a few times already but how in the seven hells did they manage to capture Ghost and put him in a cage. He doesn't seem docile in the least even when they are feeding him he is pissed off. Dire wolves are big and maybe Ghost is under fed possibly weak but even then that can't really change his strength too much. That scene and change really bothered me. I'm sure that Ghost only listens to Jon. How the mutineers got close is beyond me. Maybe its too much strain on the budget to show the wolves actually killing things.

By the way where has Nymeria (aryas wolf) been in the series. She better be out and about with a hundred plus pack. Mayhaps the hound and arya run into their rampage across the hills. All we get to see are two wolves because the others are dead or have been off screen most the time.

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It has been said a few times already but how in the seven hells did they manage to capture Ghost and put him in a cage. He doesn't seem docile in the least even when they are feeding him he is pissed off. Dire wolves are big and maybe Ghost is under fed possibly weak but even then that can't really change his strength too much. That scene and change really bothered me. I'm sure that Ghost only listens to Jon. How the mutineers got close is beyond me. Maybe its too much strain on the budget to show the wolves actually killing things.

By the way where has Nymeria (aryas wolf) been in the series. She better be out and about with a hundred plus pack. Mayhaps the hound and arya run into their rampage across the hills. All we get to see are two wolves because the others are dead or have been off screen most the time.

Concerning your first question I see two possible answers:

1) He was caught in a trap similar to the one that caught summer.

2) Sam locked him up before the mutiny, because Craster didn't want the wolf strolling about his own territory.

As for your second question: Nymeria probably is in the Riverlands tearing up the landscape with her pack, we just don't see her. If the writers want to throw us a bone (no pun intended), then we'll get a line or two from some random character about a vicious wolf pack in the Riverlands. If not, she'll only reappear once she become relevant for the overall story (which, for all that we know, might never happen).

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Lol Stannis offering Jon Winterfell isn't a plot line. It's a single scene that amounts to little.

I hope Jon and Bran do meet. GRRM's slow drawn out pacing of events has soured me on the books. I'd rather move up the Stark interactions.

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I just mentionedt his in another thread: Locke is already replacing Vargo Hoat; I can't see why they would then have him replace yet another book character. We're also overlooking the fact that Jon will soon have his direwolf back, and Ghost is a damn good judge of character. He'll let Jon know (one way or another - and I hope by biting Locke's hand!) that Locke is not to be trusted. :D

Time will tell... I think it may play better to the Unsullied to have a character that they know festering there for a while and then culminating in the stabbing.

Otherwise, what's the point of having Locke up at the wall? Vargo never went there so him being a Vargo replacement doesn't quite answer the question for me. I guess he could just be there as a short term threat to Bran's life - in wich case he bites the dust in the next episode or two. But that seems like a bit of a waste of a fair bit of character set up...

Also, one of the big theories regarding Bowen Marsh & Co's motivation is that they were acting on behalf of the Lannisters (this prompted by an earlier intiative by Cersei (or was it Tywin?) to get rid of Ned's bastard at the wall). If that theory is panning out to be true - given D&D's knowledge of what comes ahead - having Locke be the instigator would fit in nicely.

As regars Ghost, Ghost's animus towards Locke can be incorporated to great effect for the viewers, while having Jon ignore it - as indeed he ignores many warnings of what is to come. And of course Ghost is tied up for the "main event" in ADWD.

I may be proven wrong on Sunday/Monday when Locke bites the dust at Craster's, but for now, I'm placing my bets on this one....

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Lol Stannis offering Jon Winterfell isn't a plot line. It's a single scene that amounts to little.

Its not a single scene. He offers it to him several times, gets angry with him for refusing. But Jon keeps refusing for several reasons which go to build his character.

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Its not a single scene. He offers it to him several times, gets angry with him for refusing. But Jon keeps refusing for several reasons which go to build his character.

It is character building, but not exactly hard to accomplish on the show. The offer can still be made and rejected for the same reasons. Basically all we need to know, and all that it amounts too, is that Jon has always dreamed of being Lord of Winterfell but ultimately accepts that it's not his destiny and that his life is for the NW.

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I just mentionedt his in another thread: Locke is already replacing Vargo Hoat; I can't see why they would then have him replace yet another book character. We're also overlooking the fact that Jon will soon have his direwolf back, and Ghost is a damn good judge of character. He'll let Jon know (one way or another - and I hope by biting Locke's hand!) that Locke is not to be trusted. :D

Book Ghost is a damn good judge of character, show Ghost not so much. He let himself get caged by a bunch of bad guys. And he abandoned Jon when Jon was still with Qhorin, because according to Qhorin he is just a wild beast.

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Time will tell... I think it may play better to the Unsullied to have a character that they know festering there for a while and then culminating in the stabbing.

Otherwise, what's the point of having Locke up at the wall? Vargo never went there so him being a Vargo replacement doesn't quite answer the question for me. I guess he could just be there as a short term threat to Bran's life - in wich case he bites the dust in the next episode or two. But that seems like a bit of a waste of a fair bit of character set up...

Also, one of the big theories regarding Bowen Marsh & Co's motivation is that they were acting on behalf of the Lannisters (this prompted by an earlier intiative by Cersei (or was it Tywin?) to get rid of Ned's bastard at the wall). If that theory is panning out to be true - given D&D's knowledge of what comes ahead - having Locke be the instigator would fit in nicely.

As regars Ghost, Ghost's animus towards Locke can be incorporated to great effect for the viewers, while having Jon ignore it - as indeed he ignores many warnings of what is to come. And of course Ghost is tied up for the "main event" in ADWD.

I may be proven wrong on Sunday/Monday when Locke bites the dust at Craster's, but for now, I'm placing my bets on this one....

I think that would be brilliant for Locke to live till end of s5, and be the one to stab Jon. Of course in he does live that long people/viewers will wonder why the hell hasn't he made his move yet? Would have prefered if they delayed his coming to the wall till s5, were he suddenly becomes the massive threat to Jon at CB. But really am loving Locke in the show, and don't want him to go just yet, plus would love for him to brutally kill some wildlings at the wall

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I think that would be brilliant for Locke to live till end of s5, and be the one to stab Jon. Of course in he does live that long people/viewers will wonder why the hell hasn't he made his move yet? Would have prefered if they delayed his coming to the wall till s5, were he suddenly becomes the massive threat to Jon at CB. But really am loving Locke in the show, and don't want him to go just yet, plus would love for him to brutally kill some wildlings at the wall

I like Locke too, but having him be the one to stab Jon would completely change everything about the storyline. It wouldn't be that the NW wasn't able to see the wisdom in Jon's embracing of the wildlings....it would just be that Roose Bolton's spy did what he was sent there to do.

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