Butterfly effect: Now Jon knows... (Huge Spoilers)

[The Kinkslayer]

Now Jon Snow knows something, that's D&D-level character assassination.

[Corvinus85]

Now Jon Snow knows something, that's D&D-level character assassination.

:rofl:

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

Everything happening at or near the Wall in this episode has me reeling. What in the ice blue hell has happened to the story now ?

Jon knowing Bran is something other than dead is HUGE. And they just casually toss it off in a conversation between Jon and Sam , that Jon was already told ! What was that conversation like: "Hey pass the salt, oh by the way, Bran Stark [heir to Robb's crown and your only non-Sansa kin left] is alive and headed north of the Wall."

I mean, I can see Roose wringing this info out of Ramsay who squeezed it out of Theon, but they only knew the boys were alive, not where.

And now Locke shows up at the Wall ? First of all, holy crap - Locke at the Wall is bad enough news. (I had hoped he'd be headed for some eventual conflict with Brienne, replacing Shagwell.)

On top of that, Sam and Jon happen to be discussing that very Bran issue when guess who shows up at the edge of the room.

And oh, Bran and friends also got captured by the deserters, and both their direwolves somehow too. And Bran tells them who he is, even though this makes it the second time he's been held hostage by NW deserters now.

Jojen - no greensight about this, bro?

Yea it's like if you are going to make a major change like this, don't we at least deserve to see an emotional scene where Jon finds out his brother wasn't murdered by his foster brother?

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

Anyone else think Ramsay's girlfriend will play "fArya"?

As for the OP there are certainly some big changes going on. But I actually like that because it means that even though I have read the books, more than once, and discussed them here a lot as well, I still have no clue what will happen on TV. I like being surprised.

So Jon knows about Bran, and clearly at Craster's is when he will be reunited with Ghost. He also had Locke with him, whose actual mission is to kill Jon on behalf of Bolton.

So my guess is they are compressing Jon's heroism defending the wall and his building popularity there with hints of the later mutiny against him. The fight at Craster's will lead directly to him being made Lord Commander, and ther will be no first wildling attack where Ygritte gets killed as in the books.

Instead, there will only be one wildling attack, and it will also be the one where Stannis makes his surprise attack from behind. His selection as Lord Commander will most likely happen then before Stannis arrives.

I am also pretty excited that this TV scenario means we will se Jon meet Meera and Jojen. That hasn't happened in the books.

If that is the case D&D will be eliminating yet another great Stannis line. "Who better to command the black cloaks than a man who once commanded the gold, sire?" "Any of you, I would think. Even the cook." But who am I kidding, showStannis has zero sense of humor and D&D go out of their way to make him as unlikeable as humanly possible.

[NightStark]

If that is the case D&D will be eliminating yet another great Stannis line. "Who better to command the black cloaks than a man who once commanded the gold, sire?" "Any of you, I would think. Even the cook." But who am I kidding, showStannis has zero sense of humor and D&D go out of their way to make him as unlikeable as humanly possible.

Nah they'll keep that in I'd say, they've already reminded us of where Slynt came from and established that Thorne isn't liked by the men which sets Slynt up to be the compromise candidate to oppose Jon which leads into that quote.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

If that is the case D&D will be eliminating yet another great Stannis line. "Who better to command the black cloaks than a man who once commanded the gold, sire?" "Any of you, I would think. Even the cook." But who am I kidding, showStannis has zero sense of humor and D&D go out of their way to make him as unlikeable as humanly possible.

It would go along with the 'raid the pantry' line, which was perfectly in line with the sardonic humour of Stannis.

[sifth]

Sam not telling Jon was something that always angered me in the books. The guys Sam's best friend and in all likelihood saved his life. Besides all that he's Jon's brother, he has a right to know.

The fact that Sam is willing to so blindly trust Cold Hands in the novel never made sense to me, it seemed to be something simply done for plot convenience.

[Arkash]

Now Jon Snow knows something, that's D&D-level character assassination.

You, ser, deserve a cookie !

[Darryk]

It does create complications, and may make one of my favourite parts of the story (Jon refusing Stannis' offer to be made Jon Stark) untenable, or at least a lot less powerful.

But on the other hand, Sam not telling Jon that Bran is alive because "he promised not to" was always rather difficult to swallow.

[Heir to Winterfell]

Except GRRM writes 10% of the episodes...

[Bowen]

I guess they will change the reasons for Jon not accepting but he won't tell Stannis why. Maybe Bran here asks Jon not to tell, and that he must leave and go North because he knows how to defeat the Others. Then, Jon realises that Bran might never return or that it will take him so long. So, it's like for now, they're dead and can't return to reclaim Winterfel. And they don't know where Rickon is.

I don't mind the changes so far but it's like they're trying to distance themselves for certain details while they will have the same end. It's the details what explains the end, and that's why many things feel fucked up.

Yep I'd agree with this and for the life of me I can't understand some of the changes,i reckon so many of the changes come about because they probably feel the show watchers aren't as likely to piece things together,they don't do subtlety do they?its like they have to sledgehammer each point home instead of trusting viewers to work it out or not!

Re Sam telling Jon about Bran it may seem a small thing to some but having the Starks not know about each other in the books is something that made me cringe( can't find the right word)in the books,plus it makes Sam into an oath breaker effectively.

Didn't like Crasters either,holding Ghost and catching Summer bugged me as well,as if both would be stupid enough to get trapped,I believe it's another overkill,something D&D do quite well,all that said I enjoyed the episode very much.

[Daenor]

Ok my turn to complain!

First of all i need to say that i'm not a book purist nerd.I understand that book adaptations on screen need some changes or else they would have been rather boring in most cases.

Now in order to take things from the beginning:When Theon told about the Starks being alive i thought this would have lead to a Rickon-Osha chase.We never learned how Rick ended in the cannibals' isle and it could have been a fine addition.

No people having the Starks reunite is not cool!The series is not some fairy tale ,where in the end everyone lives happily ever after.I don't think i wanna see a cliche reunion where some typical emotion will kick in.Also as someone else mentioned the alternative of having repeatedly "almost there" reunion scenes will also lead to opposite results for the viewers.

As for the Stanis' offer thing i don't think the knowledge of Bran being alive changes that much.But it does change in terms of who Jon Snow has become.The belief that all his family are dead has played a significant role to the shaping of his character.And when he learns about "Arya" he goes from one mistake to the next since he's desperate to secure his only sister.A Jon Snow who knows that at least 3 of his brothers-sisters are alive is a completely different person and his story becomes far less dramatic.

As for L+R=J that some people mentioned i don't think that Martin would have let the show writers spoil his upcoming book like that.Most probably only the final season will be a huge spoiler for the readers since it's impossible that Martin will have finished the seventh book by than.

Finally i must say that the final scene with the Others was nice since we got some insight about them never mentioned before.

[Masha]

I really hope that Jon does not meet with Bran and Co. Because if someone who is considered to be a good guy like Jon would meet with his little brother and will allow himself to be talked into letting Bran go further north beyond the Wall, I (and most other viewers) will loose any respect for Jon. After all, Bran is still a kid, a helpless crippled kid with a dimwit, young girl and a sickly kid for a company. Bran's judgement is suspect (as seen in this episodes when over objections of more experienced Meera he led his wolf into trap and then got captured after Meera told him its time to go), Hodor is also been shown as helpless in a fight, Meera might be a good hunter but helpess against other humans (or Others), and Jojen is just as helpless as Bran if not worse at this point. Regardless of reasons, and to Jon, Bran's crow story should be a dream factor, Jon should not be allowed to let them go if he does meet them, otherwise its Character Assassination and another misstep this season after Jaime/Cersei rape scene.

So here is to hoping that Bran will get out before actually meeting with Jon (where are you, Coldhands) or more realistically warg into Hodor and free them (and wolves) in the chaos that will happen when Jon will attack Craster's keep?

Also, my hope for this season that Locke gets killed not by Jon but by direwolf. Jon will have his fill of killing and fighting scenes at the end of season. Time for the Wolves!!!! (I started to hope about this from the moment Roose sent Locke after Stark boys. I was hoping he'll go after Osha and Rickon and Shaggydog will get them, but I will take Summer and/or Ghost action anytime now!)

[Needs More Salt]

Butterfly effect? Is this like the grandfather paradox? where if you go back in time to kill your grandfather so you never existed?

Or are we talking 'Back to the Future' where Marty McFly hooks up with his own mother? Would that make Jon Snow his own father?

I'm so confused!

[titanx5]

I know this is a CRAZY CRAZY theory of mine, but perhaps they may have Bran tell Jon that Rickon is still alive, and Jon lets Stannis know this, and sends Davos after him. D&D may want to avoid Davos going all the way to White Harbor, of course this means them leaving out Manderley. But I would prefer to see White Harbor, but like I said its just a theoryand I am probably wrong

[howardh51]

D&D def dropped the ball on this one...

Agree watchers of the show deserved a more emotional scene when/where Jon learns that Bran is still alive...

Also - no way Jon and Bran meet again at Crasters. One of two things happen: Either the Others/WW or Wildlings get there first and slaughter everyone - and somehow, someway Bran and Co. slip away...

OR - CRACKPOT - The WW arrive first and kill all of the NW and THIS is how Bran learns of his true destiny...

[Needs More Salt]

D&D def dropped the ball on this one...

Agree watchers of the show deserved a more emotional scene when/where Jon learns that Bran is still alive...

Also - no way Jon and Bran meet again at Crasters. One of two things happen: Either the Others/WW or Wildlings get there first and slaughter everyone - and somehow, someway Bran and Co. slip away...

OR - CRACKPOT - The WW arrive first and kill all of the NW and THIS is how Bran learns of his true destiny...

The preview for the next episode shows Jon and gang battling the mutineers, and Meera or Jojen telling Bran that he has to escape quickly. I'm betting Bran slips away while Jon goes woowoowoo on the mutineers thereby just missing each other and the obligatory slow motion scene where they're wearing speedos and running towards each other on a sandy beach will have to wait.

[~DarkHorse~]

I know this is a CRAZY CRAZY theory of mine, but perhaps they may have Bran tell Jon that Rickon is still alive, and Jon lets Stannis know this, and sends Davos after him. D&D may want to avoid Davos going all the way to White Harbor, of course this means them leaving out Manderley. But I would prefer to see White Harbor, but like I said its just a theoryand I am probably wrong

:agree: I think this might happen too

However, I think Davos will still go to White Harbor in his search for Rickon but Manderly will give him leads towards Skagos as opposed to giving him the task. The fact that Davos is trying to find the Stark heir will obviously be agreeable with Manderly and we'll still get the infamous 'The North remembers' speech and Frey Pies....if they cut Frey Pies then I will riot!

[Ser Oromus Locke]

The formost complaint I have with these changes is that Sam shouldn't have told Jon, it felt like we missed a very, very important scene.. and then the Others. What the.. tWoW-spoilers? Not to mention completely unnecessary?

Sam not telling Jon was something that always angered me in the books. The guys Sam's best friend and in all likelihood saved his life. Besides all that he's Jon's brother, he has a right to know.

The fact that Sam is willing to so blindly trust Cold Hands in the novel never made sense to me, it seemed to be something simply done for plot convenience.

Uhm.. Because Coldhands saved Sam's life when he and Gilly were surrounded by Wights in Whitetree, led them safely to a secret passageway under the Wall known to men of the Night's Watch only?

It's pretty darn hard to not trust a guy after he magically appeared out of nothing on an Elk and saved your (+chick&baby) life and led you back to safety, through a gate that only your sworn brothers know about - indicating that he at least once was a sworn brother.

Except GRRM writes 10% of the episodes...

So basically 1 episode of a 10 episode season.. Which was the second episode this season.

Ok my turn to complain!

First of all i need to say that i'm not a book purist nerd.I understand that book adaptations on screen need some changes or else they would have been rather boring in most cases.

Now in order to take things from the beginning:When Theon told about the Starks being alive i thought this would have lead to a Rickon-Osha chase.We never learned how Rick ended in the cannibals' isle and it could have been a fine addition.

No people having the Starks reunite is not cool!The series is not some fairy tale ,where in the end everyone lives happily ever after.I don't think i wanna see a cliche reunion where some typical emotion will kick in.Also as someone else mentioned the alternative of having repeatedly "almost there" reunion scenes will also lead to opposite results for the viewers.

As for the Stanis' offer thing i don't think the knowledge of Bran being alive changes that much.But it does change in terms of who Jon Snow has become.The belief that all his family are dead has played a significant role to the shaping of his character.And when he learns about "Arya" he goes from one mistake to the next since he's desperate to secure his only sister.A Jon Snow who knows that at least 3 of his brothers-sisters are alive is a completely different person and his story becomes far less dramatic.

As for L+R=J that some people mentioned i don't think that Martin would have let the show writers spoil his upcoming book like that.Most probably only the final season will be a huge spoiler for the readers since it's impossible that Martin will have finished the seventh book by than.

Finally i must say that the final scene with the Others was nice since we got some insight about them never mentioned before.

Osha is a wildling and Skagos is probably more akin to wildling culture then anything else in the North.

But GRRM keeps pulling on those almost there-meetings.. Arya wants to go to her family, too bad, your family just died. Jaime returns to KL, too bad, your kid just died. Brienne is looking for Sansa, too bad, a hedge k'niggit you met up with on your travels that was also looking for Sansa, but whom you snuck away from because he was a bit shady got to her first and doesn't even realize who she is! Jaime is in the Riverlands and Brienne tells him that she has found Sansa in the Hound's captivity but needs him for something, too bad, that's a BWB-ambush!

At this point, it's completely fabricated that all of Arya's hitlistees suddenly appear right in front of her the whole damn time because whenever somebody is actively looking for somebody else, they find them either dead or they die themselves.. -.-

As for L+R=J.. I think the Reeds are either dead and should only come back into play later when Bran gets the heck out of that cave somehow..

But who cares, dropping the "Bran/Rickon is alive"-bomb so casually is just about as bad in my eyes, very vastly changes who Jon Snow is. I mean, his conversation with Mel changes completely: "I don't have a sister".. Very much inspired by living with the guilt of knowing of all the losses in his family. The following "rescue mission" is a direct consequence of that. But we're now getting it with Bran instead. So are we going to get it with both Bran AND fArya? As Thorne acknowledges, this mission is clearly with the NW's survival in mind, so Jon gets away with it (on d very bad terms though..). But the fArya-mission isn't.. Which leads to.. well you know..

There's this weird thought in my mind thinking though that they're condensing this plot with a future plot-line in which Jon does find Bran. Jon is revived somehow and leads the ranging towards Hardhome. For some reason, I expect that Bran at that point has left the cave, or that the underwater river ends up in Hardhome, leading to Jon and Bran meeting up at Hardhome. With Bran having one final message from Jojen: Jon, you're not my brother.. You're my cousin..

So here is to hoping that Bran will get out before actually meeting with Jon (where are you, Coldhands) or more realistically warg into Hodor and free them (and wolves) in the chaos that will happen when Jon will attack Craster's keep?

Also, my hope for this season that Locke gets killed not by Jon but by direwolf. Jon will have his fill of killing and fighting scenes at the end of season. Time for the Wolves!!!! (I started to hope about this from the moment Roose sent Locke after Stark boys. I was hoping he'll go after Osha and Rickon and Shaggydog will get them, but I will take Summer and/or Ghost action anytime now!)

Pretty much agree with the first part I snipped, so I got nothing to add to that.

The only thing that I liked from these scenes in the episode is that it could've explained why Ghost took so long to get back.. Warging into Hodor seems like the most obvious choice for D&D at this point and I think they alluded to it with Hodor being picketed in the scene in which they were caught: He looked even more helpless then normal and what better way to break out then to use that surprise factor?

I want to see Hodor take a blade and smack it through Locke's skull while both Summer and Ghost are tearing at his arms. The only problem is, why should the wolf get revenge for the lion? Symbolical sorry for Catelyn holding Tyrion accused for the assassination attempt?

Also, I still don't enjoy Locke. Why couldn't we have Vargo Hoat? But I guess this will work.. I like the goatee though.. xD

[sifth]

The formost complaint I have with these changes is that Sam shouldn't have told Jon, it felt like we missed a very, very important scene.. and then the Others. What the.. tWoW-spoilers? Not to mention completely unnecessary?

Uhm.. Because Coldhands saved Sam's life when he and Gilly were surrounded by Wights in Whitetree, led them safely to a secret passageway under the Wall known to men of the Night's Watch only?

It's pretty darn hard to not trust a guy after he magically appeared out of nothing on an Elk and saved your (+chick&baby) life and led you back to safety, through a gate that only your sworn brothers know about - indicating that he at least once was a sworn brother.

So basically 1 episode of a 10 episode season.. Which was the second episode this season.

Osha is a wildling and Skagos is probably more akin to wildling culture then anything else in the North.

But GRRM keeps pulling on those almost there-meetings.. Arya wants to go to her family, too bad, your family just died. Jaime returns to KL, too bad, your kid just died. Brienne is looking for Sansa, too bad, a hedge k'niggit you met up with on your travels that was also looking for Sansa, but whom you snuck away from because he was a bit shady got to her first and doesn't even realize who she is! Jaime is in the Riverlands and Brienne tells him that she has found Sansa in the Hound's captivity but needs him for something, too bad, that's a BWB-ambush!

At this point, it's completely fabricated that all of Arya's hitlistees suddenly appear right in front of her the whole damn time because whenever somebody is actively looking for somebody else, they find them either dead or they die themselves.. -.-

As for L+R=J.. I think the Reeds are either dead and should only come back into play later when Bran gets the heck out of that cave somehow..

But who cares, dropping the "Bran/Rickon is alive"-bomb so casually is just about as bad in my eyes, very vastly changes who Jon Snow is. I mean, his conversation with Mel changes completely: "I don't have a sister".. Very much inspired by living with the guilt of knowing of all the losses in his family. The following "rescue mission" is a direct consequence of that. But we're now getting it with Bran instead. So are we going to get it with both Bran AND fArya? As Thorne acknowledges, this mission is clearly with the NW's survival in mind, so Jon gets away with it (on d very bad terms though..). But the fArya-mission isn't.. Which leads to.. well you know..

There's this weird thought in my mind thinking though that they're condensing this plot with a future plot-line in which Jon does find Bran. Jon is revived somehow and leads the ranging towards Hardhome. For some reason, I expect that Bran at that point has left the cave, or that the underwater river ends up in Hardhome, leading to Jon and Bran meeting up at Hardhome. With Bran having one final message from Jojen: Jon, you're not my brother.. You're my cousin..

Pretty much agree with the first part I snipped, so I got nothing to add to that.

The only thing that I liked from these scenes in the episode is that it could've explained why Ghost took so long to get back.. Warging into Hodor seems like the most obvious choice for D&D at this point and I think they alluded to it with Hodor being picketed in the scene in which they were caught: He looked even more helpless then normal and what better way to break out then to use that surprise factor?

I want to see Hodor take a blade and smack it through Locke's skull while both Summer and Ghost are tearing at his arms. The only problem is, why should the wolf get revenge for the lion? Symbolical sorry for Catelyn holding Tyrion accused for the assassination attempt?

Also, I still don't enjoy Locke. Why couldn't we have Vargo Hoat? But I guess this will work.. I like the goatee though.. xD

So what, he still comes out of nowhere. You don't trust someone completely on the spot; it makes for poor story telling.

Cold Hands is undead for crying out loud. I'm sure Sam thought Bran would be fine with the friendly zombie, lol