Butterfly effect: Now Jon knows... (Huge Spoilers)

[The Abominable SnowOther]

Yep, they sure love throwing the 'almost Stark reunions' around.

Jon/Robb- Jon almost leaving to join Robb in season 1.

Arya/Robb/Catelyn- Red Wedding

Bran/Jon- Also in the RW episode and very frustrating!

Sansa/running away with Hound during Blackwater...could have been reunited with Arya on their travels.

Then this season we have- Arya/Sana/Hound reuniting at the Errie which my unsullied friend is excited about...I don't want to burst her bubble.

AND now another Bran/Jon near miss. :bang:

:lol: that never even crossed my mind. My sympathies to your Friend.

Jon and Bran reunion?

I dont see why its so implausible for Jon to understand the motives for Bran venturing farther north. The two of them, the Reeds and of course Hodor can just sit down for a nice cup of coffee with a little explaining for shits and giggles and, Walla! problem solved.

All for the greater good and whatnot

If WWs, wargs and huge direwolves pets arent too much to drive them crazy surely Bran's "save the world" plan is pure genius

[Sun]

My only real question about the changes with Jon is Locke: Will the show kill him off this season, or will they have him survive long enough to make him the instigator of the mutiny and see him put a knife in Jon's stomach instead of Bowen Marsh next season? Perhaps even have him be the writer or architect of the Pink Letter?

I guess we'll see.

[Dany's Silver]

Karl reminds me of some of the more "redneck" types I've met down here in the South. I think a person like Karl might just get a huge ego boost knowing he now has a big ferocious direwolf to call his own.

I'm sure it's an ego boost, but I also think he's got a complex similar to guys with big trucks!

I'm still convinced that Mark Gatiss, who was cast as the Braavosi banker, is actually Coldhands. First, he has a creepy kind of look thats perfect for the part. Second, it's been well established on the show that people from Braavos have thick accents and a distinct ethnicity (See Sirio Florel and the Titan's Bastard) that is very different from a pasty british guy. Third, it's unlikely that HBO would reveal such a spoilerific cast title such as Coldhands (implying he's dead) that is much more plot revealing than perhaps someone like Oberyn, which is just another character from another house. That being said I also remember someone on the inside of production saying that Coldhands had been written out of the show for budget reasons (he's just a dude folks, lose the elkif you must!).

Lol, Miltos Yerolemou who plays Syrio Forel is quite British (see him speaking here - past the cheesy intro music). It is quite possible for an actor to change accents for a performance. :P I'm still disappointed that Coldhands won't be included...

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

My only real question about the changes with Jon is Locke: Will the show kill him off this season, or will they have him survive long enough to make him the instigator of the mutiny and see him put a knife in Jon's stomach instead of Bowen Marsh next season? Perhaps even have him be the writer or architect of the Pink Letter?

I guess we'll see.

I don't really see why. Locke is tricking Jon to get Bran so he can get land and a lordship. He has no real reason to hate Jon or wish him dead...If anything he can empathize for being a bastard and taking shit from "Highborns" his whole life.

[Orys Lothston]

Lots of mentions of Skagos but in the TV universe Rickon and Osha went to the Last Hearth with the Umbers, which is directly between the Dreadfort and Castle Black...

Locke probably stopped there on his way up!

[acacia]

I've just had a thought but didn't Jon find out that Bran was alive late last season? When he's fighting the Wildlings and Summer and Shaggydog help him fight them off doesn't he say later on that they are still alive as he saw their Direwolves or have I completely made this up? I'm certain he mentions seeing them to someone.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I've just had a thought but didn't Jon find out that Bran was alive late last season? When he's fighting the Wildlings and Summer and Shaggydog help him fight them off doesn't he say later on that they are still alive as he saw their Direwolves or have I completely made this up? I'm certain he mentions seeing them to someone.

He does, That even happens in the books, but for some reason Jon fails to make the connection that Bran's direwolf being alive means Bran is probably alive too. Honestly the whole thing with Jon not knowing Bran was alive and Sam not telling him was kind of stupid in the books and I'm sort of glad, albeit a bit nervous, that the show is just working around it.

[MrsManderly]

Could not agree more!

As I posted on another thread, this change really annoyed me because:

(1) in the books, Sam knowing that Jon's brother, any other Stark at this point, is living, but being oath-bound not to tell him, is one of the most poignant moments in the entire series

(2) even worse, the fact that Jon was told about it was just mentioned in an off hand way - if D&D were going to reveal it, at least they should have made it a significant scene!

I did not even think of the butterfly / hurricane impact on the Jon/Stannis relationship...

This, it seems to me, is a second botch up by D&D on in relation to Bran - the first being how they handled Bran & Rickon's supposed murder in Season2/3: (1) Cat and Rob were informed at the beginning of Season 3 not that Bran and Rickon are dead, killed by Theon, but that they are merely missing and (2) worse yet, Cat had already released Jaime at the end of Season 2, i.e. before she got this information. To me, this both detracted from Cat's character (in the books she only released Jaime thinking her two younger sons dead and thus desperately focusing on saving her girls) and somewhat dulled the horror of the Red Weddins - in the books, the dying Cat thinks it is her last, her only remaining, son that is being killed at the Twins.

[boojam]

Stannis - Jon plot line offering him to be Jon Stark likely ruined....

This discussion has gone along blithely ignoring what ever succession laws there are in Westeros.

How do we know that a legitimized bastard would have precedent over even a younger natural legitimate son?

George has never told us.

Jon would now have less reason to accept Lord of Winterfell title but even if he did and lets say Rickon shows back, I think he would relinquish the title.

I don't think we ever expect Bran to show up at Winterfell again.

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

I do not see why this is such a concern to people. it did not make complete sense in the books that cowardly, blabber-mouth Sam would be able to keep such a secret of Bran's existence from his best friend and lord commander...

show makes more sense that he actually told Jon. this is not going to be a problem because it's simple...Jon will arrive at Craster's during the fighting or after, someone or somehow Jon will come under the impression that Karl or Rast killed Bran...he will be back to being in the same position as after news of Theon killing them

and even if he has some suspicions that a "crippled boy and a simpleton" somehow managed to escape from crasters, he will seriously doubt that Bran would actually survive long with WW and wights...if u rmr in the books, he already had some suspicions of Bran surviving when Summer helped him fight off the wildlings at the mill, in books its easy to write about the fact that he was thinking about it, but in show how r they supposed to show his thoughts...in show he did see summer, but they didnt show anything beyond that...with this story line, they could show him wondering about this while considering Stannis' offer...

unless D&D decide to reunite Jon and Bran at crasters...then it would actually change everything...but that would be extremely out of character for the show as well...we'll find out next ep, so have some faith till then people!

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I do not see why this is such a concern to people. it did not make complete sense in the books that cowardly, blabber-mouth Sam would be able to keep such a secret of Bran's existence from his best friend and lord commander...

show makes more sense that he actually told Jon. this is not going to be a problem because it's simple...Jon will arrive at Craster's during the fighting or after, someone or somehow Jon will come under the impression that Karl or Rast killed Bran...he will be back to being in the same position as after news of Theon killing them

and even if he has some suspicions that a "crippled boy and a simpleton" somehow managed to escape from crasters, he will seriously doubt that Bran would actually survive long with WW and wights...if u rmr in the books, he already had some suspicions of Bran surviving when Summer helped him fight off the wildlings at the mill, in books its easy to write about the fact that he was thinking about it, but in show how r they supposed to show his thoughts...in show he did see summer, but they didnt show anything beyond that...with this story line, they could show him wondering about this while considering Stannis' offer...

unless D&D decide to reunite Jon and Bran at crasters...then it would actually change everything...but that would be extremely out of character for the show as well...we'll find out next ep, so have some faith till then people!

There was a reason Bran didn't want Sam to tell Jon. Maybe Bran told him the reason Idk but I think that if Sam promised he would keep his word. He didn't promise in the show so it doesn't matter.

If they don't meet at Craster's he may believe Bran dead BUT he won't think that Theon killed him. (He knows now that Theon didn't kill them via Sam in the show) That changes a lot of things for me: Everyone will know Theon is not a kinslayer, I for one was very looking forward to a possible Theon/Jon interaction at the wall. Possibly Stannis would bring him. Also Stannis is holding Theon saying basically he has to kill him because the Northman would flip if he didn't. How will all that play out if they all know Theon didn't kill them?

Also I think it's a little redundant to keep having close encounters of the Jon/Bran kind.

Lastly, there is no reason for Jon to assume that Bran is alive just because his wolf is. He may think that part of Bran is in the wolf or something along those lines but there is absolutely no reason Bran couldn't be dead with Summer alive.

Not to mention it isn't near as hard for Jon to refuse Winterfell when he knows there are trueborn heirs living. It said something for his character that he continued to refuse what he has always wanted. That's taken away if he knows Bran is alive.

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

^^

Jon/Theon scene was unlikely since he got stabbed up by NW, most likely he will have to flee the Wall, barely alive...

As for Stannis finding out, even if Jon continues to think that Bran is alive, no reason for him to tell Stannis about it...2 reasons he has perfectly good reason to keep that to himself,

1) he's worried that stannis will try to force the boys to give stannis their support and he doesnt want that pressure on the kids, better they are off beyond the wall than under Stannis and pyscho melisandr...

2) remember he's worried about melisandre's obsession with blood of a king? thats the reason he sent off Mance's son. makes complete sense that he'd be worried about melisandre wanting to burn Bran (ancient line of kings of the north, brother of Rob, King of the north).

so stannis can still do as he likes with Theon.

I agree with the redundant part, who knows y D&D deciding to do that...i never got y they decided to change Yaara to Asha...maybe there was a reason, or maybe just for the heck of it...

i agree that if Jon is not convinced or at least reasonably certain of Bran's death at Crasters, then it might end up extremely weird...but if that is the case that Jon knows Bran is alive, or it is more than just a mild hope/suspicion, then perhaps D&D will decide to change his decision process as well...they might just show that before he comes to a full decision to pass on Stannis' offer, the NW already chose him as LC, taking decision out of his hands...i agree that wont be good either, but it all hinges on what happens next ep....i'm still hoping that something happens that reassures him of Bran's death

[jarl the climber]

Here's the weird thing: when talking with Jon at CB after the sword practice, Locke claimed he was a "game warden" from the Stormlands, caught for poaching a pheasant for his starving family. But, surely, Locke does look/dress like a Northerner and has a Northerner accent.

Also, why is Locke there by himself? Couldn't Bolton have simply matched right to The Wall and demanded that any Stark refugees be turned over to him, since he is now Warden of the North? Why the subterfuge?

Having Jon now know about Bran isn't necessarily ruinous to the plot -- even if the plot was to go so far as to have the two actually meet, Bran can insist, as he has been doing, that he needs to go to the far north and that Jon must treat Bran as dead/lost so as to dissuade other bounty hunters.

Regardless, Bran effectively isn't a Stark any longer as he has accepted a higher calling than regaining his family's interests.

I think that Roose does not want to be seen as violating the neutrality of the Nights Watch. He has no real reason beyond a hunch that the two kids might there. It also not clear if he really has 200 or 300 men to spare right now, most of his men are trapped South of Moat Cailin. I think he just wants to quietly bump off the Stark kids and Jon Snow as well, even with him being Warden/Lord Paramount he has no real reason to go after the two kids, they are to young to be traitors. Just throwing some ideas out there, hopefully the writers/showrunners clear this up a little bit.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

^^

Jon/Theon scene was unlikely since he got stabbed up by NW, most likely he will have to flee the Wall, barely alive...

As for Stannis finding out, even if Jon continues to think that Bran is alive, no reason for him to tell Stannis about it...2 reasons he has perfectly good reason to keep that to himself,

1) he's worried that stannis will try to force the boys to give stannis their support and he doesnt want that pressure on the kids, better they are off beyond the wall than under Stannis and pyscho melisandr...

2) remember he's worried about melisandre's obsession with blood of a king? thats the reason he sent off Mance's son. makes complete sense that he'd be worried about melisandre wanting to burn Bran (ancient line of kings of the north, brother of Rob, King of the north).

so stannis can still do as he likes with Theon.

I agree with the redundant part, who knows y D&D deciding to do that...i never got y they decided to change Yaara to Asha...maybe there was a reason, or maybe just for the heck of it...

i agree that if Jon is not convinced or at least reasonably certain of Bran's death at Crasters, then it might end up extremely weird...but if that is the case that Jon knows Bran is alive, or it is more than just a mild hope/suspicion, then perhaps D&D will decide to change his decision process as well...they might just show that before he comes to a full decision to pass on Stannis' offer, the NW already chose him as LC, taking decision out of his hands...i agree that wont be good either, but it all hinges on what happens next ep....i'm still hoping that something happens that reassures him of Bran's death

Some good points & I don't disagree that the show is not, as of yet, beyond redemption. I enjoy the show I'm just worried about how everything will play out now that they've decided to change this particular thing.

Also don't you think its possible that the stabbers will flee from the NW after realizing Jon will live? Or better yet that they are caught & forced to face the consequences? I don't think Jon will leave the NW but it is possible.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Some good points & I don't disagree that the show is not, as of yet, beyond redemption. I enjoy the show I'm just worried about how everything will play out now that they've decided to change this particular thing.

Also don't you think its possible that the stabbers will flee from the NW after realizing Jon will live? Or better yet that they are caught & forced to face the consequences? I don't think Jon will leave the NW but it is possible.

Nothing is really going to change. Jon will return to the wall to fight the wildlings and Mance. Bran and co. will somehow escape and head to Bloodraven. I feel like people have delusions that one day the show is just going to say fuck it and have Jaime become King, Tywin rebel and join forces with Stannis who has now converted to the Old Gods and decides to marry Lysa Arryn or something. They make small changes but everything eventually ends up the same.

I don't really think there will be much of a Night's Watch by the time Jon returns to consciousness, really. Plus someone is bringing the wall down, if not Jon.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Nothing is really going to change. Jon will return to the wall to fight the wildlings and Mance. Bran and co. will somehow escape and head to Bloodraven. I feel like people have delusions that one day the show is just going to say fuck it and have Jaime become King, Tywin rebel and join forces with Stannis who has now converted to the Old Gods and decides to marry Lysa Arryn or something. They make small changes but everything eventually ends up the same.

I don't really think there will be much of a Night's Watch by the time Jon returns to consciousness, really. Plus someone is bringing the wall down, if not Jon.

Haha! This is exactly what I'm afraid of! All in all as much as I would love for the show to follow the book exactly I understand that is just not possible.

There are plenty of small changes that I enjoyed. I do get a little frustrated when they make changes for no apparent reason. I do understand the necessity to liven Bran up a bit for the screen and they couldn't hardly have Bran captured at Craster's along with Ghost by ex members of the NW without SOMEONE disposing of them. I just think they made a poor choice when deciding how to liven Bran up.

When it's all said and done as long as what you said doesn't happen I'll be satisfied enough. Until then I will use my time in between shows picking apart the things I don't like and gushing over the things I do :cheers:

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

When it's all said and done as long as what you said doesn't happen I'll be satisfied enough. Until then I will use my time in between shows picking apart the things I don't like and gushing over the things I do :cheers:

Lol, fair enough. You have to admit it's pretty entertaining watching and still getting surprised/seeing knew things.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Lol, fair enough. You have to admit it's pretty entertaining watching and still getting surprised/seeing knew things.

It definitely is!

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

Also don't you think its possible that the stabbers will flee from the NW after realizing Jon will live? Or better yet that they are caught & forced to face the consequences? I don't think Jon will leave the NW but it is possible.

im worried that just the number of people that disagree with jon will make his stabbing acceptable to the NW and lead to him being exiled from NW...however, i didnt consider the wildlings....they would definitely revolt at the idea of being sent back north of the wall and sheer number of them would overwhelm the new mutineers....will be interesting to see how that plays out...

i too dont agree with them changing things for no apparent reason, but i dont agree with the haters who were yelling about daario's beard not being blue or syrio not being bald...inconsequential details are ok...

as for bran...truthfully, i read the series 3 times so far and everytime iv been bored to death of brans POV till he get to BloodRaven...i was extremely peeved when they skipped all his visions when he was in the coma in s01e02...i guess they figured if they showed all that back then, they would have very little to show rest of the seasons till he gets to BR...so i'm slightly okay with it...

[ebevan91]

There was a reason Bran didn't want Sam to tell Jon. Maybe Bran told him the reason Idk but I think that if Sam promised he would keep his word. He didn't promise in the show so it doesn't matter.

If they don't meet at Craster's he may believe Bran dead BUT he won't think that Theon killed him. (He knows now that Theon didn't kill them via Sam in the show) That changes a lot of things for me: Everyone will know Theon is not a kinslayer, I for one was very looking forward to a possible Theon/Jon interaction at the wall. Possibly Stannis would bring him. Also Stannis is holding Theon saying basically he has to kill him because the Northman would flip if he didn't. How will all that play out if they all know Theon didn't kill them?

Also I think it's a little redundant to keep having close encounters of the Jon/Bran kind.

Lastly, there is no reason for Jon to assume that Bran is alive just because his wolf is. He may think that part of Bran is in the wolf or something along those lines but there is absolutely no reason Bran couldn't be dead with Summer alive.

Not to mention it isn't near as hard for Jon to refuse Winterfell when he knows there are trueborn heirs living. It said something for his character that he continued to refuse what he has always wanted. That's taken away if he knows Bran is alive.

Well, Theon DID still take Winterfell, killed Ser Rodrik, and killed 2 innocent miller's children. He swore a vow to Robb and broke it.