(BEWARE SPOILERS) Book Lovers beware this episode was better than we expected

[The Wrong Tree]

I'm a bit worried that you know so much about this topic. Also, it's fantasy, so you can't expect 1:1 equivalency in terms of prepping a drinking skull. I doubt Karl considered the risks associated with his actions.

"You've basically got to put the skinned skull into a barrel of mealworms for them to eat all the flesh in all the nooks and crannies of the skull, then to make it nice and pearly white you have to soak in just the right concentration of hydrogen peroxide. I thought it was pretty ridiculous but I just let it go."

Actually, all they would have to do is boil the skull and then pull the flesh off. I don't know how to quote multiple people so I just used actual quotations haha. Who is Karl? Is he the guy who is drinking out of the skull?

[WinterisAlwaysComing]

Why stick in a character like Coldhands who only appears briefly, doesn't do much that can't be done by other means, and may even possibly confuse the non-book readers? If his only significance is guiding Bran and killing some mutineers (which it seems to be), then there's no reason to even introduce him to the audience. You can create much more drama by even suggesting that a Stark reunion is possible. No, I don't think it will happen...but I'm just excited by the possibility. I don't even care what the ramifications would be down the road, I just want to see what they do with the story now.

Not to mention...are they going to show Coldhands riding a giant reindeer? And if CH is truly important (and he may be), D&D know this from GRRM, and will find a similar character (ala. Locke) or inject CH in later.

I didn't miss Vargo Hoat, or "Yar!!" pirate Tormund, or never-smiling robotic gold-eyed Tywin. (Any more than I missed Tom "hi derry do!" Bombadil from LoTR.) I think most of the changes are great. There are a few mis-steps, but overall, I'd say 90% of the changes work for the better, and help make the translation to TV work.

[jentario]

How is it people don't know what's going to happen now?

The mutineers are going to be killed and Bran and co. are going to head North. Jon will get Ghost back. We will either have a cheesy Jon/Bran reunion or a cheesy Jon/Bran 'near miss' number two.

Locke is the interesting part. He was sent to hunt Bran and Rickon and now... He'll find Bran! I think what will happen is that Locke would assume that Bran is "as good as dead" since he decides to continue beyond the Wall, and then he runs back to the Boltons. Now the more interesting part is this: WILL BRAN TELL JON ABOUT RICKON AND OSHA?! Because if he does, Locke's hunt is far from over :)

[Mr Fixit]

I agree that it's quite interesting to watch just from the perspective of the show, however ultimately it will still end up as rather pointless filler. Just like Ros or the Dragonknapping, once this little invention of D+D's comes to an end it will never be bought up again or have any impact on the rest of the plot. Why not have Bran attacked by Wights and rescued by Coldhands? Why not have the smaller battle at Castle Black with Ygritte's death in E4 or 5 rather than condensing it into E9, which is the whole reasons Jon has nothing to do.There's plenty that they could have done that would have been both interesting and true to the novels. If the option to please both parties is there, then why not take it?

I suppose one could see it like that. Thing is I don't like this all-encompassing usage of the word "filler". Even in the books, did Arya need 21 chapters of roaming around the Riverlands prior to the RW across ACoK and ASoS? Let's not even get into AFfC and ADwD. You could always say this or that could've been left out or trimmed or rearranged... and in a manner of speaking you'd be right.

This particular change I have no problems with. It gives Jon and Bran something interesting to do. It puts these two storylines temporarily on a collision course which is always nice in a show with so many disparate plots. One story directly feeds into another when these things happen so we are left with a stronger sense of narrative importance (whether or not it's true in the end) and more pronounced forward momentum. In my eyes this is a good thing.

This turn of events also gives Jon a chance to flex his leader muscles / chops / skills which will obviously have a role to play later in the season. As for Bran and the Wights, isn't there some speculation of such an encounter in Ep.10? We'll see.

[SerArthurHeath]

But no one believes in the books that Bran is alive. That's half Theon's character is that he is a kinslayer, turncloak, etc. And in the books only Sam knows the truth

Jon knowing Theon didn't kill Bran could have some major plot upsets.

Well, not openly, no. But then there's lots of variations of the GNC

[Jambottle Jeebus]

People, Honestly... Sam NOT telling Jon that Bran is alive is a bigger betrayal IMO.

This episode was sweet, and it's refreshing not knowing what happens next... All u book prima-donnas get over it...

[briantw]

But no one believes in the books that Bran is alive. That's half Theon's character is that he is a kinslayer, turncloak, etc. And in the books only Sam knows the truth

Jon knowing Theon didn't kill Bran could have some major plot upsets.

Other people know Bran is (potentially) alive in the books. Ramsay knows, for one, and presumably the people he sends after Bran and Rickon (remember the guy Bran meets in the cave saying people have been about seeking wolf pelts?) also know what they are looking for. We can probably safely assume that Roose knows too, although I can't recall if he ever confirms such.

So it's not as if there is no one at all who knows aside from Theon.

As far as this upsetting the plot, well, D&D know more than we do regarding that, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt right now. Plus, we haven't seen how next week plays out. Maybe the episode ends with Jon thinking Bran has died.

[Syrio.Forel]

Really? I get more frustrated each episode. Everything is wrong. Some things get us to the same point & have to be changed to film & I get that but...Gilly in Mole's Town? The Wildlings are insane. Jon knows Bran is alive & is going to Crasters? Bran is at Crasters? The whole thing is a mess.

One of my favorite things about the books is that things are not always fair. Good people die & it isn't fair. The characters are not purely good or evil (save a few) & for me the show is ruining that.

The whole reason Jon Snow thinks its possible to make good with the wildlings is BECAUSE he realizes they are just people. Some are good, some are bad. The show has painted them all as some savage lunatics I suppose in an attempt for us to root for their deaths?

NO WAY those chumps at Crasters could've captured ghost.

I'm just afraid they are going to change the whole story line. Are the show & the books going to end up in the same place? If not it will be very disappointing for me. I'm glad you all enjoyed the episode but for me its just moving too far away from the books.

This is EXACTLY how I feel. Everyone else seems fine with all the changes, which is cool, to each their own. I just had to cheer that someone felt the same as me on more than one issue. I agree with ALL of Lyanna<3Rhaegar's points.... Wait.... Lyanna loved Rhaegar?!?! *MIND-BLOWN* j/k

[sj4iy]

Even if both routes are ultimately pointless (though I refuse to believe Martin inserted Coldhands for no reason, and think D+D just want to condense his role) then why not take the pointless route the also follows the books? Watching a potentially good zombie rescuing Bran would be fun to watch even if it's left as a mystery. Watching Bran captured at Craster's is also fun even if nothing ever really comes of it. Both routes work well enough when looking at the show as a standalone piece, but one keeps two groups happy. It should really be a no-brainer.

Not everything in the books works well on-screen. There's no reason to pass up a juicy piece of drama to stick in a character that doesn't seem to have any real significance to the plot.

[protar]

Not everything in the books works well on-screen. There's no reason to pass up a juicy piece of drama to stick in a character that doesn't seem to have any real significance to the plot.

You mean characters like Rast and Karl? Ultimately the stuff at Craster's is some juicy drama with irrelevant characters. Coldhands rescuing the Bran Clan from Wights is also some juicy drama with a (possibly) irrelevant character. Why one earth wouldn't you choose the route from the books seeing as both routes serve the same functional purpose - to provide drama - but the latter pleases more people (in theory).

[briantw]

You mean characters like Rast and Karl? Ultimately the stuff at Craster's is some juicy drama with irrelevant characters. Coldhands rescuing the Bran Clan from Wights is also some juicy drama with a (possibly) irrelevant character. Why one earth wouldn't you choose the route from the books seeing as both routes serve the same functional purpose - to provide drama - but the latter pleases more people (in theory).

Because one route allows you to merge two sets of characters who are in reasonably close proximity to each other anyway with the limited screen time you have available where the other doesn't?

[protar]

Because one route allows you to merge two sets of characters who are in reasonably close proximity to each other anyway with the limited screen time you have available where the other doesn't?

True enough, although imo it is a small benefit in exchange for drastically changing the source material. And though it does provide some interconnectivity between plot lines, it's ultimately going to be little more than a tease of a Stark reunion which may leave some viewers feeling cheated. Especially as we got one last season between Jon and Bran already. Plus in this episode at leas, the two separate plots could have been covered in the same amount of screen time as the one combined plot.

[briantw]

True enough, although imo it is a small benefit in exchange for drastically changing the source material. And though it does provide some interconnectivity between plot lines, it's ultimately going to be little more than a tease of a Stark reunion which may leave some viewers feeling cheated. Especially as we got one last season between Jon and Bran already. Plus in this episode at leas, the two separate plots could have been covered in the same amount of screen time as the one combined plot.

I mean, I generally agree with you, but I think you're just splitting hairs at this point.

Another benefit is that it allows the showrunners to have one action scene in one place for the two sets of characters, which saves money and time. This is opposed to your idea of filming the first battle at Castle Black in addition to a scene of Bran and company against some wights, which would obviously require significantly more expense and time for obvious reasons.

Plus, a battle at Castle Black would be significantly more expensive and would require more screen time than a few sword fights at Craster's, which is presumably why they rolled that battle in with the battle at the Wall to just take over an entire episode.

When I first heard about the fight at Craster's, I thought it made perfect sense. It allowed them to add a relatively cheap action scene in the middle of the season to keep the pace going. I didn't expect them to roll Bran's storyline into it, but I don't really have an issue with it either. It puts Bran's group in some peril and adds some drama that was otherwise absent from his storyline in the books.

[Chebyshov]

True enough, although imo it is a small benefit in exchange for drastically changing the source material. And though it does provide some interconnectivity between plot lines, it's ultimately going to be little more than a tease of a Stark reunion which may leave some viewers feeling cheated. Especially as we got one last season between Jon and Bran already. Plus in this episode at leas, the two separate plots could have been covered in the same amount of screen time as the one combined plot.

Agree with what I bolded, which is why I'm thinking they might actually have a reunion. Not sure how I'll feel about that but we'll see.

But I'm not sure why people are complaining about changing the source material with these two plots. They're incredibly boring in the books at these specific points; I'm not saying I dislike Jon's arc or Bran's arc overall, but all we'd be getting otherwise is Jon brooding in an ice cell, and Bran eating smashed acorns. I can't say whether I'm going to really like this change until after we know how it plays out, but I am a bit mystified at how much hate it's gotten, especially when looking at the alternative.

[Jess Bishop]

It was really hard seeing Ghost locked up. Not only because of his emotional/mythical ties to Jon, but because it would have been impossible. Maybe they are just doing it as a way to bring Bran and Jon together again, which I wouldn't be opposed to, but it will definitely cause a new storyline to emerge.

[Cas Stark]

Agree with what I bolded, which is why I'm thinking they might actually have a reunion. Not sure how I'll feel about that but we'll see.

But I'm not sure why people are complaining about changing the source material with these two plots. They're incredibly boring in the books at these specific points; I'm not saying I dislike Jon's arc or Bran's arc overall, but all we'd be getting otherwise is Jon brooding in an ice cell, and Bran eating smashed acorns. I can't say whether I'm going to really like this change until after we know how it plays out, but I am a bit mystified at how much hate it's gotten, especially when looking at the alternative.

I don't mind the changes, but they haven't been executed very well.

People think Bran's storyline is boring, but they cut the Liddle scene, where we could have gotten perspective on the North's devastation by the war and the Stark's ruin...as well as "The Wolves Will Come Again"...which I don't think they've said.

If they want to have Bran captured by the mutineers fine, but why does it have to be so stupid, which them sitting in the woods SO CLOSE to the encampment with no idea it's there...why not have them stumble on it and then get caught...that would be more realistic.

As far as Jon knowing Bran is alive, that is inexcusible. Ditto with both direwolves being captured so easily.

[briantw]

If they want to have Bran captured by the mutineers fine, but why does it have to be so stupid, which them sitting in the woods SO CLOSE to the encampment with no idea it's there...why not have them stumble on it and then get caught...that would be more realistic.

We really don't know how close they were. They only found it after hearing the baby cry, and presumably Rast didn't just drop the kid off right outside the gates given who was coming to pick the baby up. He probably went a ways out in the woods, and the noise of a baby crying in a silent forest could probably carry a reasonable distance. Even after that, Bran only found the encampment because of Ghost whining nearby.

And then they did basically stumble on it after that.

[sj4iy]

You mean characters like Rast and Karl? Ultimately the stuff at Craster's is some juicy drama with irrelevant characters. Coldhands rescuing the Bran Clan from Wights is also some juicy drama with a (possibly) irrelevant character. Why one earth wouldn't you choose the route from the books seeing as both routes serve the same functional purpose - to provide drama - but the latter pleases more people (in theory).

You are assuming that people would rather have the version from the books. The show-only watchers will not know any different (and I know that my friends and family are actually really excited for what will happen), and many book-readers seem really excited about the idea of the two story lines merging in an unpredictable way. Just because the version in the books is 'from the books' doesn't make it better.

[protar]

You are assuming that people would rather have the version from the books. The show-only watchers will not know any different (and I know that my friends and family are actually really excited for what will happen), and many book-readers seem really excited about the idea of the two story lines merging in an unpredictable way. Just because the version in the books is 'from the books' doesn't make it better.

Not necessarily, but usually that is the case. Virtually all the complaints I've seen levied at the show from the Unsullied Threads across the web are the result of changes made by D+D. They've struck gold a time or two, but most of their deviations have been pitifully incompetent. Fortunately this change seems at least fairly exciting and despite a few logical discrepancies, the plot at least holds together for the most part (unlike Talisa, or the Dragonknapping). However I'd still put it on the same level as what happened in the books, rather than an improvement and as such I'd have preferred things to default to the book. That's how things should be if there's no real reason for the change.

[Chebyshov]

Not necessarily, but usually that is the case. Virtually all the complaints I've seen levied at the show from the Unsullied Threads across the web are the result of changes made by D+D. They've struck gold a time or two, but most of their deviations have been pitifully incompetent. Fortunately this change seems at least fairly exciting and despite a few logical discrepancies, the plot at least holds together for the most part (unlike Talisa, or the Dragonknapping). However I'd still put it on the same level as what happened in the books, rather than an improvement and as such I'd have preferred things to default to the book. That's how things should be if there's no real reason for the change.

Really? Most of the Unsullied complaints I've seen are how Dany isn't in Westeros or how the WW don't seem like a real enough threat (I'd argue that was addressed on the show last episode). Still, I'll give you the Dragonknapping. Not sure I understand your Talisa complaints.