(BEWARE SPOILERS) Book Lovers beware this episode was better than we expected

[Daske]

And please stop speculating about what I want. You're doing a very poor job with that. Perhaps it would be more productive to explain what is this heart I'm possibly missing. I'm curios, honestly. It wouldn't be the first time someone opens my eyes about something. Just leave aside your speculations about what I want, and try to explain what I'm missing from the show.

You are asking an honest question, and I will try. GoT deserves serious critical reviews. Yes, indeed.

But GoT is also about getting a little tingle when you hear the intro music, it's about buying a GoT mug to match 'your' House, it's about posting silly gifs on Tumblr, it's about naming your cat Arya because she looks a bit like Maisie, it's about picking out GoT as your calander this year then drawing a moustache on May's Stephen Dillane, it's about discussing the latest episodes with your boss at work when you should be in an important meeting, it's about laughing at Red Wedding vids on YouTube, it's about persuading your mum to watch it then later finding out she's hooked, it's about buying your neice 'I'm not a Princess, I'm a Khaleesi' T-shirt, and it's about desperately waiting for the Blue-Ray boxset to come out so you can inviting your friends over for a binge GoT evening.

All these things are part of what makes GoT (or any other 'fan heavy' show) good, or great, or fun. I think without this you are missing an important ingredient to judge the competence of the the showrunners and the quality, importance and impact of the show.

And yes, if you really don't like it, you will probably never appreciate these 'meta' aspects of the show, but you are still missing part of the evidence. And that's life - we all miss out on something everyone else seems to get a kick out of. This is what I mean.

(I don't do all those things by the way. That would be silly.).

[briantw]

it's about buying a GoT mug to match 'your' House

I bought all the mugs!

[dbunting]

Couple rants that have coem to me while reading this thread.

Stannis doesn't care if Bran and Rickon are alive, they have no bearing on his claim. His claim is to Westeros as a whole and didn't acknowledge Robb except as a usurper. So to him they mean nothing.

Ghost - Summer captures...big deal. They are just direwolves. Wild animals and even people can be captured, stop acting like that are above the world because they are not.

And BTW, Ghost was still North of the wall at this point, he and Jon were still separated. He reconnected with Ghost when he went past the wall to kill Mance, so this is not a change.

As for all of the hate toward D&D and whoever else runs the show....it is a fan favorite and is getting all kinds of ratings, so apparently they are doing something right. Stop being a book snob and accept that Strong Belwas, Cold hands and other assorted characters are gone. Not everyone can make it when adapting, just can't happen.

Ok, I feel better now.

[briantw]

Stannis doesn't care if Bran and Rickon are alive, they have no bearing on his claim. His claim is to Westeros as a whole and didn't acknowledge Robb except as a usurper. So to him they mean nothing.

He may not care personally about them, but politcally they could be very useful to him. The North would rally around a Stark child in a way they never would around Stannis. If he can find either Bran or Rickon, he can rally the Northern lords by simply telling them he means to reclaim Winterfell for the Starks.

[Blazfemur]

You are asking an honest question, and I will try. GoT deserves serious critical reviews. Yes, indeed.

But GoT is also about getting a little tingle when you hear the intro music, it's about buying a GoT mug to match 'your' House, it's about posting silly gifs on Tumblr, it's about naming your cat Arya because she looks a bit like Maisie, it's about picking out GoT as your calander this year then drawing a moustache on May's Stephen Dillane, it's about discussing the latest episodes with your boss at work when you should be in an important meeting, it's about laughing at Red Wedding vids on YouTube, it's about persuading your mum to watch it then later finding out she's hooked, it's about buying your neice 'I'm not a Princess, I'm a Khaleesi' T-shirt, and it's about desperately waiting for the Blue-Ray boxset to come out so you can inviting your friends over for a binge GoT evening.

All these things are part of what makes GoT (or any other 'fan heavy' show) good, or great, or fun. I think without this you are missing an important ingredient to judge the competence of the the showrunners and the quality, importance and impact of the show.

And yes, if you really don't like it, you will probably never appreciate these 'meta' aspects of the show, but you are still missing part of the evidence. And that's life - we all miss out on something everyone else seems to get a kick out of. This is what I mean.

(I don't do all those things by the way. That would be silly.).

Oh, it's definitely not about the orgasm i get when i hear the opening "weiner, weiner-weiner," it's the pre-erection i get when the HBO announcer exclaims in his noble, lordly voice, "...AND NOW, the HBO original series, GAME OF THRONES."

.....i used to get that feeling when True Blood came on, but that died at Season 4.

[flrtwtrble]

I agree with the poster above, I think they're at a loss on what to do with Bran's story line (lack of) in getting to his end point beyond the wall. I wouldn't have even minded him potentially coming across Craster's baby and even the mutineer's who stayed at Craster's. HATE, HATE, HATE the reveal that Bran and Rickon are alive to everyone and their brother and for Jon to potentially go looking for them, just doesn't work for me.

The WW and Night's King were freaking AWESOME though. At first I was excited that it may have been Coldhands (and a bit disappointed that it wasn't) but loved the addition.

[sj4iy]

I agree with the poster above, I think they're at a loss on what to do with Bran's story line (lack of) in getting to his end point beyond the wall. I wouldn't have even minded him potentially coming across Craster's baby and even the mutineer's who stayed at Craster's. HATE, HATE, HATE the reveal that Bran and Rickon are alive to everyone and their brother and for Jon to potentially go looking for them, just doesn't work for me.

The WW and Night's King were freaking AWESOME though. At first I was excited that it may have been Coldhands (and a bit disappointed that it wasn't) but loved the addition.

I doubt they are at a loss...I would bet they said "we need to figure this out" several years ago and now are filling out that storyline.

[ground_control]

I doubt they are at a loss...I would bet they said "we need to figure this out" several years ago and now are filling out that storyline.

Given how bad of a job they are doing, I'd hope they started a lot later, because if this is the best they could do in several years, it's going to be a disappointing season.

[sj4iy]

Given how bad of a job they are doing, I'd hope they started a lot later, because if this is the best they could do in several years, it's going to be a disappointing season.

Yes, so disappointing. Some things are different from the book, it's a complete disaster!

/easily my favorite so far

//love what they are doing

[Blazfemur]

Given how bad of a job they are doing, I'd hope they started a lot later, because if this is the best they could do in several years, it's going to be a disappointing season.

wHAt the hell are you saying?? This show is EPIC. Jesus christ, let it pan the fuck out before judging it. You give elitists a terrible name. Im LOVING this season so far. The deviations from the books are what make this a GoT alternate universe! I GET MORE HOUND SCREENTIME

seriously, gtfo

[Blazfemur]

To continue on my point, i would much rather LOVE to see a spoiled alternate universe, than wait 10 more years for a dream of spring. i take into consideration a lot may not happen as it will in that book, but knowing wat i know up until book 5 and d&e 1+2, i would LOVE to be spoiled until the real thing comes out.

[ground_control]

Yes, so disappointing. Some things are different from the book, it's a complete disaster!

I'm sorry you feel that way, I think many of their changes have been good. I just didn't like this last episode, and thought a lot of it was really poorly written and thought out.

[Blazfemur]

I'm sorry you feel that way, I think many of their changes have been good. I just didn't like this last episode, and thought a lot of it was really poorly written and thought out.

well, what parts specifically, and why? legitimately.

[ground_control]

well, what parts specifically, and why? legitimately.

I've posted specifics in several places, but off the top of my head:

1) Grey Worm / Missendei -- doesn't add value, "sacking" of Mereen to quick and sterile, the time spent on "developing" the GW/M relationship could have been used to better effect making the sacking look better

2) Locke teleported to Wall, poor choice of his false origin

3) Sam just mentioning that he told Jon about Bran (could have been done better in an earlier episode, felt contrived here)

4) Jon and Sam just now looking at map and realizing that Bran may be near Craster's, even though Sam met him while fleeing from there

5) Sam apparently didn't warn Bran about a bunch of mutinous deserters (this could have been handled by a single line referencing Sam warning him about them, Bran & co still would have tried to free Ghost and Summer and get caught)

6) Karl from Gin Alley was a bit over the top -- too much time spent on the mutineers

7) Locke just happening to overhear talk about Bran

Basically, I don't dislike the content conceptually, it just feels like it was forced in all at once into this episode. If some of the scenes had been eased into a bit more smoothly, or foreshadowed a bit in earlier episodes, I think it would have flowed better. For example, Locke could have been shown in episode three when they are showing new recruits (so he declares he'll go in episode 2, we see him arrive in episode 3, and then he starts up in episode 4). Sam could have told Jon about Bran instead of the all-new Mole Town trip with Gilly in episode 2 (not cut everything with Sam/Gillym, they are good together; I just don't think the Mole's Town part added anything to Sam/Gilly).

It's possible that having a bunch of North scenes back to back for the last 20 minutes instead of broken up throughout the show that made it seem more crammed together as well, which definitely didn't help.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Calm it down please.

Flaming will not make the discussion of a difference of opinion any easier to deal with.

[/MOD]

[sj4iy]

I've posted specifics in several places, but off the top of my head:

1) Grey Worm / Missendei -- doesn't add value, "sacking" of Mereen to quick and sterile, the time spent on "developing" the GW/M relationship could have been used to better effect making the sacking look better

2) Locke teleported to Wall, poor choice of his false origin

3) Sam just mentioning that he told Jon about Bran (could have been done better in an earlier episode, felt contrived here)

4) Jon and Sam just now looking at map and realizing that Bran may be near Craster's, even though Sam met him while fleeing from there

5) Sam apparently didn't warn Bran about a bunch of mutinous deserters (this could have been handled by a single line referencing Sam warning him about them, Bran & co still would have tried to free Ghost and Summer and get caught)

6) Karl from Gin Alley was a bit over the top -- too much time spent on the mutineers

7) Locke just happening to overhear talk about Bran

Basically, I don't dislike the content conceptually, it just feels like it was forced in all at once into this episode. If some of the scenes had been eased into a bit more smoothly, or foreshadowed a bit in earlier episodes, I think it would have flowed better. For example, Locke could have been shown in episode three when they are showing new recruits (so he declares he'll go in episode 2, we see him arrive in episode 3, and then he starts up in episode 4). Sam could have told Jon about Bran instead of the all-new Mole Town trip with Gilly in episode 2 (not cut everything with Sam/Gillym, they are good together; I just don't think the Mole's Town part added anything to Sam/Gilly).

It's possible that having a bunch of North scenes back to back for the last 20 minutes instead of broken up throughout the show that made it seem more crammed together as well, which definitely didn't help.

1. I suppose this is an attempt to humanize the soldiers and to see how they think...I would say that's useful since that's how they convince the slaves to revolt.

2. You can't say that he 'teleports' to the Wall when he leaves back in episode 2. We don't have to see his journey or even see him each episode to know that he actually made a journey there. It's not as if they stop accepting new recruits.

3. Don't see how it felt contrived...we haven't seen much of the Night's Watch up until this episode in this season. It was pretty clear that Sam told Jon about it while he was convalescing- and actually, it explained another change they made in the process. In the books, Jon is shot by one arrow in the thigh...in the show, he's shot three times and is more seriously wounded. It makes sense that they did that now in order to keep Jon from going after Bran, because an injured leg wouldn't have stopped him. It also gives an ulterior motive for Jon wanting to go to Craster's Keep. And actually, it was Jon that mentioned Sam telling him, not the other way around.

4. Sam may have fled from Craster's Keep with Gilly, but he didn't meet Bran there. He was already South of the Wall when he met with Bran. Anyway, I think the scene is more about illustrating Jon's state of mind and not Sam's.

5. Why would Sam have done that? He didn't know where Bran was going, except "North of the Wall". He doesn't even mention it to Bran in the books.

6. Give you that one, but eh, a little bad acting never hurt anything. Especially when it's effectively one of the last scenes they'll ever have. Admittedly, it just makes me want to see a sword through his face that much more, so I guess it did its job.

7. It's not an original idea, but it's obvious the guy is doing everything he can to shadow Jon, so it fits.

I don't know what kind of 'foreshadowing' they can really do when the Night's Watch had only had about 6 minutes of screen time before this episode. It's not as if Jon is going to go around talking all the time about his brother Bran, especially before or during his trial, especially since he figures that they are going to execute him. The show was (rightly) focusing on the Royal Wedding and the aftermath of that...the battle with the Wildlings and everything else could easily wait.

[RhaenysBee]

I agree with the OP.

The show is an adaptation. They couldn't and shouldn't go with the show 100%. Sometimes they are doing very well with the changes. Sometimes not so well, sometimes it's lame. But all in all they are bringing an enjoyable show to us. It may be different from the books but that doesn't mean it's wrong. Also, the tv show must sell itself, and to that certain changes must be made. It's business. We either accept and understand that or go on about how they ruin the story, but it won't change. :dunno: I still like the show even though there were many things I didn't like. They are doing something right.

[rocksniffer]

in those millions that like the show now, my point is, included in those millions are the people that claim theyre offended just for attention, and are hellbent on apologies for being offended. Meanwhile, they neglect to read the warnings at the beginning of each episode detailing "sexual situations, nudity, adult language," etc.

Don't get me wrong, I got into this series because of seasons 1 & 2. And then i took the responsibility, to reading the whole series over the course of 5 months, and then rereading for an additional 5 months.

It was a mere rant, it didn't even have a place on this topic, and for that i do apologize. It's discrimination on my part, and not toward show-only watchers, but for sensitive people who are only sensitive for attention and a sense of entitlement for that sensitivity. If youre offended by this show, you clearly haven't been paying attention.

as i said above, this is a great thing in my opinion. People that never read GRRM's work or any fantasy for that matter have watched the show, become intrigued by the story, the characters, etc., and now have read the books to get...as Paul Harvey was fond of saying..."the rest of the story"...

there will always be some who refuse to take the show at face value, that's ok its their loss in the long run. I am glad that there are differences, even if i wish it had been cold hands that took the kid, i am not convinced he is gone just not appearing as readers expected...

...for example, someone(s) said earlier, and i am too lazy to go back through and find it...that they thought it was too contrived that everyone ends up at Craster's keep...according to this map and others i notice that the keep is due north from the Night Fort where Sam and gilly crossed wall and where Bran and co. were camping for the night...so it seems normal that they might have run up on it without knowing it was there...these kinds of twists and changes are what makes the show be able to stand alone. something that is important to people that aren't interested in the books...

....of course that is just this old asshole's opinion.... :smoking:

[rocksniffer]

i am interested in the thoughts of the new fl00b class about this last epi...i know the thought s of the book lovers and the old fl00bs...but really you new guys might have some insights we old fucks have ignored...

...share... :smoking:

[WinterisAlwaysComing]

I think the changes are OUTRAGEOUS! Why doesn't Melissandre have red eyes? Or Tywin Lannister have gold flecks in his? This show is a disaster.

If Mereen doesn't have the blue grace and the green grace and the gold grace and the red grace and the aqua grace, I shall picket HBO!!