(BEWARE SPOILERS) Book Lovers beware this episode was better than we expected

[W1NT3RF3LL]

Really? I get more frustrated each episode. Everything is wrong. Some things get us to the same point & have to be changed to film & I get that but...Gilly in Mole's Town? The Wildlings are insane. Jon knows Bran is alive & is going to Crasters? Bran is at Crasters? The whole thing is a mess.

One of my favorite things about the books is that things are not always fair. Good people die & it isn't fair. The characters are not purely good or evil (save a few) & for me the show is ruining that.

The whole reason Jon Snow thinks its possible to make good with the wildlings is BECAUSE he realizes they are just people. Some are good, some are bad. The show has painted them all as some savage lunatics I suppose in an attempt for us to root for their deaths?

NO WAY those chumps at Crasters could've captured ghost.

I'm just afraid they are going to change the whole story line. Are the show & the books going to end up in the same place? If not it will be very disappointing for me. I'm glad you all enjoyed the episode but for me its just moving too far away from the books.

ah, I think you are going a little overboard. Really, in the books until Jon allows them to come through we see them as bunch of savages. Even Jon has his own motives to as why he allows them through. One of them being that he doesnt want them to turn into WW. The other is he grew fond of them while he was with them. I think it will all come together.

[rocksniffer]

Maybe if Jon does meet up with Bran and co, they'll even teach Jon how to use his powers of warging that so far he hasn't even touched. Just a thought.

i am curious about this too, after all that talent might prove invaluable in the future...wouldn't the rest of the Sullied, herein, agree?

I just watched the ep so I'll need some more time to let it sink in... But yeah I agree that "Oathkeeper" turned out interestingly. I was shocked about everything related to Bran in this ep but not outraged, and right now I'm dying to find out what this seed they've planted will grow to be like.

I just love the element of surprise they gave in this episode. As a book reader I miss that a lot, so for me deviating from the books is certainly a positive thing. I've quit whining about what they're doing to the show since it became clear it's going to outrun the books. I'd choose surprise over spoiler anytime, so I'm not that worried about what D&D are planning to do next.

my thoughts exactly...most of the changes from the beginning have really just tightened up the story and made it both a great book series and a great tv series...

It's a little weird, isn't it? We're so used to knowing what will happen, or how deviations can string back together in the future, but a scene like the end of this episode is a reminder of how fun it must be to watch this show as an Unsullied. Mind you, I still enjoy the show immensely; but that sense of uncertainty, suspense and mystery is lost a lot of the time because of our knowledge of the source material.

Didn't think it was possible, but I'm even more excited for TWoW now!

...and perhaps having a different take on things we thought we knew will make the reveals coming in TWoW more exciting rather than ruining the story, a some believe...

I'm not sure why book fans like this episode so much.

We already knew what was happening at Craster's Keep after the mutiny. Ghost hunted down and killed some of the perpetrators. Getting Bran mired in everything there is nothing more than pointless filler, plain and simple. Gods help us if he and Jon are reunited. The titular scene - "Oathkeeper" - seemed shorter than Grey Worm's completely superfluous language lesson from Missandei. The overthrow of Meereen was anticlimactic, and Dany's mass-crucifixion of people she thought might have crucified the slave girls (coming soon to a Westeros near you!) was glossed over. That cheap CGI Targaryen flag was atrocious, too.

Thankfully, at least Saint Tyrion of House Whitewashing didn't give Jaime the idea to send Brienne after Sansa with Oathkeeper and Pod.

A week after the outrage over gratuitously and grotesquely mutilating a major character arc by having him rape one of the only persons in the world whom he loves and is loyal (if it wasn't supposed to be rape, then why did the writers and directors describe it as "rape" and "forcing himself on her," hm?), we have loads of gruesome rape at Craster's Keep. Totally necessary, I'm sure. It's not like there's more story to tell.

I get that many were disturbed by the last epi and the sex on the alter scene, and even though i respect everyone's right to an opinion, mine is that rape, child abuse and murder are part of this story, in the books as well as the show...so why did it shock anyone...in addition although Ghost avenging the mutiny was ok for the books, really getting to see what was going on and how the women were chanting, for example, made that whole part of the story a fuller representation of things i had only imagined...

What about the hours of gratuitous sex this show throws in our face? The split second rape scene at Craster's least has a point in by showing us how utterly despicable those traitorous pieces of excrement are. What's the point of all the sex & nudity this show is known for? 99% of the time it does nothing to advance the story or develop the characters.

as a fan of gratuitous sex on HBO for more than 30 years (anyone else remember that HBO used to only show R-rated films after 9 pm), what shocks me is that people are outraged by seeing things that the books never shrink from...GRRM describes sex in vivid detail throughout the books, so what's wrong with seeing it...

On one hand that's a fair comment, but on the other hand the whole reason D&D were allowed to make the series was because they proved to George that they loved the books, they got the books, they understood George. So when we all were given this explanation, while we understand and expect that there will be variations, some have been mind blowing, some have been just plain annoying, and some have made people bloody angry. Or, at the least, unhappy.

When Robb's marriage arc was totally changed, for example, you immediately knew it was because the rest of Jeyne's story would be a cipher. I would have rather read that in the next book.

My dearest Fragile Bird, i find myself disagreeing with the premise that making changes somehow lessens D&D's respect and understanding of the story...sure people always get annoyed...myself included...when a filmmaker changes important parts of a story ( i am reminded of Cujo and the fate of the boy)...but i do not think the books are inviolate. In fact i am of the opinion that several of the changes have enhanced my appreciation for the story and its rich texture.

...as for Robb and Jeyne, i didn't get that change but in the grand scheme i guess it hasn't impacted me that much. And like you, i also believe the journey is at least as important as the end result, if not more so, that being said i am not sure that my desire to read the final books has been lessened by what the show has changed or revealed about the paths taken by the main characters...

...just more mutterings from your favorite salty old asshole.... :smoking:

[AnotherCrannogman]

I find them doing too much each episode. If it were not for having the read the books I am not sure I would know what was going on.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Because some of us realize that this is an adaptation? Because we know it's more difficult to show a persons nature and intent on TV/in movies than it is when you can read their every thought in a book? Some of the characters are different? Well, of course they are. All of the characters complexities have to be degraded for a media that only has minutes per episode to explain what these characters are doing and going through. They add in new scenes not in the book? Of course they do. No one wants to see Bran walking through snow for several episodes.

Seriously man, just go reread the books and be happy. It's very apparent that people like you only watch the show so you can complain about how it's ruining the books. Well, the books still exist in their entirety. Have at them.

Goodness why so angry? It is not a personal offense to you for some of us book readers to disagree with the way the show is portraying the books. Some episodes I love, some I don't. This one I didn't. I'm happy that you did. Its OK for us to think differently.

[Har!!!]

I have to agree with many on how it is nice to expand Bran's journey north of the Wall. Walking through snow would have gotten old pretty fast. I still don't really want to see Jon and Bran meet up though. That nagging speculation in Jon's head seems like a better plot device than them seeing each other.

Night's King/Lands of Always Winter was pretty great, I thought. That bit really made me sit up.

Is that Locke guy the stand-in for Vargo Hoat from a couple of seasons ago? There was some ominous tones to the score when he stood up to volunteer for the Craster mission. I'm excited to see what he tries to pull.

Although I've come around on the Meereen storyline from the books (thanks to this series of essays), I didn't really think much of the scenes of it in this episode. It'll be interesting to see how they introduce all of the characters with Zs in their names.

Lastly, I really wish Pod caught up to Brienne like in the books. It would have made for some good tension on the part of Brienne while she's on the road.

[rocksniffer]

Goodness why so angry? It is not a personal offense to you for some of us book readers to disagree with the way the show is portraying the books. Some episodes I love, some I don't. This one I didn't. I'm happy that you did. Its OK for us to think differently.

I agree...to each his own...if we all thought the same this forum would be pretty boring... :smoking:

[Han Snow]

Some people think it is easy adapting a saga as rich and vast as ASOIAF.

No it's not.

D&D are actually doing a decent job of it all. There is no one out there who wouldn't make similar mistakes as them. Maybe in 20-30 years when Star Trek holodeck technology becomes a reality, a perfect adaptation could be re made, but not now. They are restricted by time, money, location etc...

And the truth is that the fat needs to be cut, the plot streamlined, certain characters changed so this story can work on screen. The thing is, in that process, mishaps and grave mistakes are bound to happen. Like the rape scene from last week. That was a putrid filled mistake that should have never ever taken place. I couldn't take Jaime's acts of kindness seriously in this episode because of it. Or silly stuff like people fighting without helmets, or that ridiculous statement from Jon in this episode that wildlings fight dual wielding two weapons and that it makes them more deadly. Nonsense, no one in their right mind would try to fight with two weapons, its completely unpractical and makes you an easy target. Besides they are supposed to be poor and without proper weapons made of steel or iron. But it makes for a more interesting tv.

All in all I loved this episode. The WW at the end kept me on the tips of my toes and it was a great way to show us little bit more of them by answering what happens with Craster's sons. I was also strangely fond of the Jon/Bran plot change. Adds a bit of life in the North/Wall storyline.

[zombree]

I'm not pleased with the fact that it seems the TV show just spoiled the unreleased book. With Martins comments about going deeper into the North than we ever have before in TWOW, I imagine we find out where Crasters sons go, or what happens to them...welp, now I already know.

The show is good. The books are better. If that is a spoler I may have to stop watching the show. I love the show but I can't have an altered adapation ruin a story that's been in the making for twenty years.

I would no count on it being a book spoiler. I both read and watched Trueblood and the show and the book series it was based off because two completely different things. I seriously hope HBO wont do that with GOT but I wouldn't put it past them.

I was actually really excited watching it last night, it was the first time I had no idea what was going to happen next and it was kind of refreshing.

[Starksmustwin]

Goodness why so angry? It is not a personal offense to you for some of us book readers to disagree with the way the show is portraying the books. Some episodes I love, some I don't. This one I didn't. I'm happy that you did. Its OK for us to think differently.

I'll stop being so angry if you stop blowing things out of proportions. I mean, they added a little more meat to Bran's boring story and your reaction is... "Now I'm afraid they'll change the whole story! [/emo_face]"? Yeah, that's not an over reaction at all. They're two different mediums. One limitless and one very limited. One can literally get you inside the mind of the characters and one has to be more visual and a lot more straight forward.

Honestly, you're only hurting yourself regardless. Instead of fully enjoying this story told in two different ways, you instead use one of the ways to make your self disappointed with the other. If some of you would realize that the show in no way changes or defiles the books, you'd likely come away each Sunday night with nothing but a smile on your face. Regardless of the changes that need to be made (or the ones that don't), this show is easily one of the best on TV.

Oh, and I've read the book series twice and listened to the Roy Dotrice audio book version as well. With that said, I don't care what they have to change in order to make the tv series more interesting. If I want a word for word Song of Ice and Fire, I'll just reread the books a third time.

[GHOSTSTARK]

curious that the mutiners had Ghost caged and weird how Bran an company got captured by the men at Crasters. also Locke with Jon... what is that? and im assuming there wont be a Coldhands

[Rockroi]

I think this was the first time I really thought I was watching a television show instead of enjoying Game of Thrones/ASoIaF. I really thought it was pedestrian if not outright sloppy writing; contrived, formulaic and lazy. It was an average TV program, not the phenomenon we have all come to know and love (and respect).

I said my thoughts in the main thread for Oathkeeper, but here are my high points:

-Apparently, EVERYONE eventually ends up at Craster's Keep, even though the "Land Beyond the Wall" is a vast, uncharted place. Let’s see… Jon Snow, Bran, the Night’s Watch, the White Walkers (who use it as the worst take-out joint in Westeroes), etc – they all stop into this place… in a world that has been described as so vast you cannot keep track of anything. But now we have … everyone … here… Jojen, Rast, Ghost… the gang is all here…

-While it seems weird, the inclusion of Ghost is really, REALLY troubling. Why is he there? Why did they keep him? How did these morons catch him and cage him? Why is he caged? The answer could be that "Ghost is caged because he has to be there so somebody can find him." Which is the clinical definition of "convenient plot devise." Which has me concerned...

-Bran is one of the more lack-luster POVs in the book and Martin has said repeatedly that Bran is the hardest character for him to write; Bran does very very little. The show cannot keep paying these actors to walk around for 10 episodes and have all of 3 scenes. They have to DO something. And … now they are. Now, I get that but make them do something worthwhile. I don't mind- at all- the desire to give Bran's story some meat; I DO MIND a great deal the silliness and the contrived nature of what they are doing now. Bran, the cripple, runs into yet another group of people he cannot fight off- first it was the wildings, then it was the Ironborn, now its the Craster Mutineers. Same verse, little bit louder, a little bit worse. If you want to do something with Bran, why not just cut to the case and bring in Brandyn Rivers/Bloodraven? Lets do it.

-THIS looks so painfully contrived. So utterly contrived to get the actors in the show to do something. Its taken 4 episodes to do… that and it …. Looks terrible. The only thing holding it together are Bran and the Reeds. The actors are NAILING IT and thank God for that because the story looks terrible.

-Going off-book can pay HUGE dividends (Robert and Cersei; Tywin and Arya), but if done badly it can be ludicrously awkward (the Brotherhood Without Banners being a tight group… unless a hot red woman wants to buy one of you; Shae), a waste of time (Dany in Qath) or prove to be the worst scene in the show’s 3.5-year run (Cersei and Jaime in the sept). If you are going to go off book, for the live of Christ, do it well, don't give us shallow convenience.

-This is feeling eerily like Roz. I always felt Roz was there because you needed somebody to tie together all the loose, disparate parts of the show. And it always smacked of lazy writing. That’s what I feel about this. That Bran at Craster’s is just a lazy way to try to coagulate a pretty diffused story. In the book, its not a problem. In the show? It’s a problem. But this is not how to solve it. They went off-book and did it in the most ham-fisted and clumsy way possible. And its so obvious and so unnecessary. I know D&D are “geniuses” and they now, apparently, believe it. They think they can do no wrong.

And that may be correct, but right now Bran at Craster’s seems forced, sloppy, lazy and convoluted.

Prove me wrong.

[Cas Stark]

I think this was the first time I really thought I was watching a television show instead of enjoying Game of Thrones/ASoIaF. I really thought it was pedestrian if not outright sloppy writing; contrived, formulaic and lazy. It was an average TV program, not the phenomenon we have all come to know and love (and respect).

I said my thoughts in the main thread for Oathkeeper, but here are my high points:

-Apparently, EVERYONE eventually ends up at Craster's Keep, even though the "Land Beyond the Wall" is a vast, uncharted place. Let’s see… Jon Snow, Bran, the Night’s Watch, the White Walkers (who use it as the worst take-out joint in Westeroes), etc – they all stop into this place… in a world that has been described as so vast you cannot keep track of anything. But now we have … everyone … here… Jojen, Rast, Ghost… the gang is all here…

-While it seems weird, the inclusion of Ghost is really, REALLY troubling. Why is he there? Why did they keep him? How did these morons catch him and cage him? Why is he caged? The answer could be that "Ghost is caged because he has to be there so somebody can find him." Which is the clinical definition of "convenient plot devise." Which has me concerned...

-Bran is one of the more lack-luster POVs in the book and Martin has said repeatedly that Bran is the hardest character for him to write; Bran does very very little. The show cannot keep paying these actors to walk around for 10 episodes and have all of 3 scenes. They have to DO something. And … now they are. Now, I get that but make them do something worthwhile. I don't mind- at all- the desire to give Bran's story some meat; I DO MIND a great deal the silliness and the contrived nature of what they are doing now. Bran, the cripple, runs into yet another group of people he cannot fight off- first it was the wildings, then it was the Ironborn, now its the Craster Mutineers. Same verse, little bit louder, a little bit worse. If you want to do something with Bran, why not just cut to the case and bring in Brandyn Rivers/Bloodraven? Lets do it.

-THIS looks so painfully contrived. So utterly contrived to get the actors in the show to do something. Its taken 4 episodes to do… that and it …. Looks terrible. The only thing holding it together are Bran and the Reeds. The actors are NAILING IT and thank God for that because the story looks terrible.

-Going off-book can pay HUGE dividends (Robert and Cersei; Tywin and Arya), but if done badly it can be ludicrously awkward (the Brotherhood Without Banners being a tight group… unless a hot red woman wants to buy one of you; Shae), a waste of time (Dany in Qath) or prove to be the worst scene in the show’s 3.5-year run (Cersei and Jaime in the sept). If you are going to go off book, for the live of Christ, do it well, don't give us shallow convenience.

-This is feeling eerily like Roz. I always felt Roz was there because you needed somebody to tie together all the loose, disparate parts of the show. And it always smacked of lazy writing. That’s what I feel about this. That Bran at Craster’s is just a lazy way to try to coagulate a pretty diffused story. In the book, its not a problem. In the show? It’s a problem. But this is not how to solve it. They went off-book and did it in the most ham-fisted and clumsy way possible. And its so obvious and so unnecessary. I know D&D are “geniuses” and they now, apparently, believe it. They think they can do no wrong.

And that may be correct, but right now Bran at Craster’s seems forced, sloppy, lazy and convoluted.

Prove me wrong.

Of course it is. Meera the huntress all of a sudden becomes so stupid that she's within EAR SHOT of Craster's Keep and they don't know it? Did she stop doing any recon or what? And yes, Ghost is captured by the mutineers and kept alive for the reason that he needs to be found...

I don't object per se to them ending up at Craster's...but the fact that they're right there by it in the woods and have no clue there is a huge encampment nearby until they hear a baby crying is just lazy writing.

[Ingelheim]

I think this was the first time I really thought I was watching a television show instead of enjoying Game of Thrones/ASoIaF. I really thought it was pedestrian if not outright sloppy writing; contrived, formulaic and lazy. It was an average TV program, not the phenomenon we have all come to know and love (and respect).

I said my thoughts in the main thread for Oathkeeper, but here are my high points:

-Apparently, EVERYONE eventually ends up at Craster's Keep, even though the "Land Beyond the Wall" is a vast, uncharted place. Let’s see… Jon Snow, Bran, the Night’s Watch, the White Walkers (who use it as the worst take-out joint in Westeroes), etc – they all stop into this place… in a world that has been described as so vast you cannot keep track of anything. But now we have … everyone … here… Jojen, Rast, Ghost… the gang is all here…

-While it seems weird, the inclusion of Ghost is really, REALLY troubling. Why is he there? Why did they keep him? How did these morons catch him and cage him? Why is he caged? The answer could be that "Ghost is caged because he has to be there so somebody can find him." Which is the clinical definition of "convenient plot devise." Which has me concerned...

-Bran is one of the more lack-luster POVs in the book and Martin has said repeatedly that Bran is the hardest character for him to write; Bran does very very little. The show cannot keep paying these actors to walk around for 10 episodes and have all of 3 scenes. They have to DO something. And … now they are. Now, I get that but make them do something worthwhile. I don't mind- at all- the desire to give Bran's story some meat; I DO MIND a great deal the silliness and the contrived nature of what they are doing now. Bran, the cripple, runs into yet another group of people he cannot fight off- first it was the wildings, then it was the Ironborn, now its the Craster Mutineers. Same verse, little bit louder, a little bit worse. If you want to do something with Bran, why not just cut to the case and bring in Brandyn Rivers/Bloodraven? Lets do it.

-THIS looks so painfully contrived. So utterly contrived to get the actors in the show to do something. Its taken 4 episodes to do… that and it …. Looks terrible. The only thing holding it together are Bran and the Reeds. The actors are NAILING IT and thank God for that because the story looks terrible.

-Going off-book can pay HUGE dividends (Robert and Cersei; Tywin and Arya), but if done badly it can be ludicrously awkward (the Brotherhood Without Banners being a tight group… unless a hot red woman wants to buy one of you; Shae), a waste of time (Dany in Qath) or prove to be the worst scene in the show’s 3.5-year run (Cersei and Jaime in the sept). If you are going to go off book, for the live of Christ, do it well, don't give us shallow convenience.

-This is feeling eerily like Roz. I always felt Roz was there because you needed somebody to tie together all the loose, disparate parts of the show. And it always smacked of lazy writing. That’s what I feel about this. That Bran at Craster’s is just a lazy way to try to coagulate a pretty diffused story. In the book, its not a problem. In the show? It’s a problem. But this is not how to solve it. They went off-book and did it in the most ham-fisted and clumsy way possible. And its so obvious and so unnecessary. I know D&D are “geniuses” and they now, apparently, believe it. They think they can do no wrong.

And that may be correct, but right now Bran at Craster’s seems forced, sloppy, lazy and convoluted.

Prove me wrong.

IMO, it was one of the best episodes ever.

[briantw]

I don't like Sam breaking his promise to Bran and telling Jon about running into him. That changes so very much - D&D are fond of saying that the path of the tv show may wander away from the path of the books but they end up in the same place. Hard to imagine that can happen now.

If I recall correctly, he never made any such promise on the show. That was book only.

[WITCHKING]

Worst episode ever...

[Rockroi]

IMO, it was one of the best episodes ever.

And some people think Michael Bolton is a musical genius. To each their own. I don't begrudge people their taste.

But... back it up. Give me some evidence that what I said is somehow wrong. That the evidence I have presented is factually off; that there is a rational explanation for my concerns OTHER THAN "The writers just wanted to get everyone together."

[acacia]

I loved the episode, mainly because of all the northern stuff including the wolves and the magic/supernatural? beyond the wall. Thats one of the main reasons i enjoyed the first season, i read the books after in between seasons 1 and 2 and still prefer the northern storylines. This season has seemed a bit cut together for my liking, this is the only episode that seemed to have a bit of glue between scenes and flowed well between locations. Other episodes have almost seemed like the director has called out "and now we have dany......and now we have stannis" as it cut to each section.

[AnotherCrannogman]

I am glad Bran is doing something but have to agree Craters may not be the place. I certainly hope we get a close call but no meeting between Bran and Jon.

[Ingelheim]

And some people think Michael Bolton is a musical genius. To each their own. I don't begrudge people their taste.

But... back it up. Give me some evidence that what I said is somehow wrong. That the evidence I have presented is factually off; that there is a rational explanation for my concerns OTHER THAN "The writers just wanted to get everyone together."

I'll give you that, Ghost being there is stupid. They should have killed the wolf long time ago. About the Craster's keep...IIRC, Bran, in his way to Bloodraven's cave, came that way. Didn't Coldhands kill the deserters? About Bran being to active...you can't make him meet BR yet. That's ADWD stuff and we are not even at half of season 4. He'll meet him this season, but (as happens with Jon Snow), he needs something to do.

For the off-books scenes...well, as you said, there are some great scenes (Robert-Cersei and Tywin-Arya), some terrible ones (Jaime and Cersei in the Sept), and, Dany in Qarth was a waste of time in the books too.

[flyerhawk]

And some people think Michael Bolton is a musical genius. To each their own. I don't begrudge people their taste.

But... back it up. Give me some evidence that what I said is somehow wrong. That the evidence I have presented is factually off; that there is a rational explanation for my concerns OTHER THAN "The writers just wanted to get everyone together."

Wrong? Not sure if wrong is the right way to describe it. The show was always going to need some plot devices to keep the story going forward.

But to respond to a few of your points.

I find nothing wrong with people constantly bumping into Craster's Keep. While the land beyond the wall is vast, most of it beyond the reach of humans. Further south it not nearly as expansive. Given that the Keep is one of the few areas where there are actual people, it shouldn't be that shocking that people wind up there.

There aren't many ways you can depict a crippled child and the books did the show little favor. Watching Bran endlessly carried through the snow isn't going to make for compelling TV.

IMO, I think we get to meet Cold Hands this week. And he does what he does in the books, then meets Bran & Co. and they venture off before Jon gets to Craster's.