(BEWARE SPOILERS) Book Lovers beware this episode was better than we expected

[UK Mord]

The books are the books and the tv series is an adaptation of the books made for a tv audience which in fairness is a wider audience.

They are what they are and personally I can't get upset about things changing from one to the other.

Being in the UK I have not yet seen the episode and sadly away on business so won't get to see till tomorrow now :(.

Do I understand correctly though? bran is already at Craster's and John is on his way? If this is the case, do you think it is just another frustratingly close encounter when as the reader / viewer, you want the family that has been split be reunited but it doesn't happen? I remember reading the books, for me it was one of the most emotional bits where Bran was in the tower and Jon just outside with the wildlings.

[Rockroi]

IIRC, Bran, in his way to Bloodraven's cave, came that way. Didn't Coldhands kill the deserters?

No. IN the books, Coldhands only kills wrights to rescue Sam and then when they are attackd just as they get to Bloodraven’s cave. There is not “Showdown at Crasters.” Not that that would have made it better; had the scene been in the books I’d have also thought it contrived.

Wrong? Not sure if wrong is the right way to describe it. The show was always going to need some plot devices to keep the story going forward.

Plot devises is one thing; plot contrivances is another.

I find nothing wrong with people constantly bumping into Craster's Keep. While the land beyond the wall is vast, most of it beyond the reach of humans. Further south it not nearly as expansive. Given that the Keep is one of the few areas where there are actual people, it shouldn't be that shocking that people wind up there.

There is not a single character that has gone South to North who has not ended up there. That seems almost mystical to me. And silly.

There aren't many ways you can depict a crippled child and the books did the show little favor. Watching Bran endlessly carried through the snow isn't going to make for compelling TV.

I agree. So, why then did they do it again with Craster’s? Season 1- captured by wildings (before Robb + Theon rescue); Season 2 captured by THeon; season 3 ALMOST captured by Wildings; Season 4, now, captured by the Deserters. Its still the same, its still boring. They ARE doing the same thing. I agree, in the books its boring. But why compound the problem by making it boring AND contrived?

[zombree]

I think this was the first time I really thought I was watching a television show instead of enjoying Game of Thrones/ASoIaF. I really thought it was pedestrian if not outright sloppy writing; contrived, formulaic and lazy. It was an average TV program, not the phenomenon we have all come to know and love (and respect).

Ultimately I feel like we all need to realize we are watching a TV show, all the book lovers are going to miss out on some element that they loved and due to the enormity of the books the show runners are going to have to mix things up. When I was reading the books I found the Bran chapters to be really boring. And when he pops up on screen I groan a little inside because I know that at this point in time he literally has nothing to do but wander around though the means by which he wound up in the situation he did was a bit contrived it was nice to be caught off guard.

[William Campbell]

These aren't spoilers, this is just fan fiction from HBO, a sort of "what if," like 'what if Rob's wife went to the red wedding,' 'what if Bran went to craster's keep and was captured by mutineers.' People put too much faith in the relationship between Martin and the producers of the show. The TV show will conitinue to diverge from the books as the show goes on. The ending will be different definitely.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I'll stop being so angry if you stop blowing things out of proportions. I mean, they added a little more meat to Bran's boring story and your reaction is... "Now I'm afraid they'll change the whole story! [/emo_face]"? Yeah, that's not an over reaction at all. They're two different mediums. One limitless and one very limited. One can literally get you inside the mind of the characters and one has to be more visual and a lot more straight forward.

Honestly, you're only hurting yourself regardless. Instead of fully enjoying this story told in two different ways, you instead use one of the ways to make your self disappointed with the other. If some of you would realize that the show in no way changes or defiles the books, you'd likely come away each Sunday night with nothing but a smile on your face. Regardless of the changes that need to be made (or the ones that don't), this show is easily one of the best on TV.

Oh, and I've read the book series twice and listened to the Roy Dotrice audio book version as well. With that said, I don't care what they have to change in order to make the tv series more interesting. If I want a word for word Song of Ice and Fire, I'll just reread the books a third time.

OK you keep right on being angry then! With so righteous a cause who wouldn't be?! How dare other people not enjoy the show the way you did or worse yet have their own opinion on things!

LOL. Seriously it isn't that deep. I understand completely that the books are not changed because the show is (as anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together would) I just want to see the BOOK on the SHOW. Not that it's not still capable of showing that but I'm worried they are going to end up some place completely different and for me that would be disappointing.

They didn't just add "a little more to Bran's story" Since you have read the books twice I'm sure you realize that and were just using that line for dramatic reaction.

It's all going to be ok I promise. If some people don't enjoy things you do, that's alright. HBO isn't going to stop airing because I said I didn't like an episode.

:cheers:

[flyerhawk]

No. IN the books, Coldhands only kills wrights to rescue Sam and then when they are attackd just as they get to Bloodraven’s cave. There is not “Showdown at Crasters.” Not that that would have made it better; had the scene been in the books I’d have also thought it contrived.

Pretty sure that Cold Hands kills the remaining mutineers. It's revealed to Bran via warg experience.

I agree. So, why then did they do it again with Craster’s? Season 1- captured by wildings (before Robb + Theon rescue); Season 2 captured by THeon; season 3 ALMOST captured by Wildings; Season 4, now, captured by the Deserters. Its still the same, its still boring. They ARE doing the same thing. I agree, in the books its boring. But why compound the problem by making it boring AND contrived?

That just seems like being pretty nit picky. That particular group of people is more or less helpless with only Meera being able to do much of anything. If my guess that Cold Hands shows up this week is right, then I think things will turn around in that regard.

[Miodrag]

What I will always fail to understand is why certain people believe deviations from the novel lessen the quality of the show.

It probably has to do with the fact that the vast majority of changes was for the worse. For example, Dany/Drogo wedding night in the show was criticized, only, not because it happened before Jaime pushing Bran (which would've been nothing but pointless nitpicking), but because the scene was significantly altered, and the change made the scene more cliched and predictable and a layer in their story was lost. We're only criticizing the deviations there are actually damaging to the story. It is not our responsibility that every single change - save a few - made the story much weaker than it could've been had D&D stayed close to the novels.

A. The books aren't perfect

Book-admirers actually know that. Therefore, when books are discussed, criticizers usually don't get attacked and ridiculed and "educated" on the nature of the medium in question. Complaints get challenged, of course, just like they should, instead of simply being dismissed as "trolling". But, it's not books' imperfections that are problematic, because, even with imperfections, ASOIAF novels are great literature. TV show's imperfections are the actual trouble, because some apparently think TV show is perfect, or, at the very least, not to be criticized.

B. They are separate entities

Has anyone denied that?

C. Some of this stuff is really, really cool

For you, perhaps. For me, not so much. But anyway, "cool" is not the attribute I respect that much. I'd rather for characters and twists and developments and plot-lines to be meaningful and deep and skillful, than cool.

[MarieAntoinette]

These aren't spoilers, this is just fan fiction from HBO, a sort of "what if," like 'what if Rob's wife went to the red wedding,' 'what if Bran went to craster's keep and was captured by mutineers.' People put too much faith in the relationship between Martin and the producers of the show. The TV show will conitinue to diverge from the books as the show goes on. The ending will be different definitely.

I agree that the show will diverge more and more in the upcoming seasons, but I don't see how the ending would be different ? Didn't the showrunners say that they sat down with Martin and went through every character's fate?. Unless Martin was bullshitting them the ending will probably stay roughly the same, the path will be different.

[Toft]

Should we worry too much about the fact that Jon knows about Bran? They might not meet. Jon might be led to believe Bran is dead in some other way, restoring things to roughly how they are. Or, in the books, Jon and Bran might meet in future. As they say, the roads may be different but the destination is the same.

[Ser_Not_Appearing_In_This_Book]

Maybe Bran will warg into Hodor, who will set Ghost free & they escape in the ensuing mayhem, never to see Jon et al whatsoever..

Was totally tripping last nite tho during the ep ..

[Lady of Dragonstone]

The forums have not been working for me all night last night or all day today, so sorry for jumping into the conversation late.

I would normally agree with you here Toft, but for me as a book reader, the journey is so much more fulfilling than the destination. I'm really worried about Samwell telling Jon about Bran. What is this going to change in the story? AS LC Jon bases a lot of his decisions, personal or business, on the feelings he has for his family.

Personally, I don't think Bran and Jon will be meeting in the show, or at least not this season. That way the canon storyline is preserved, and the writers have created their needless drama to fill up minutes of the show and use actors they've paid for the season. Bran is one of the few characters who they haven't butchered onscreen so I am quite disappointed but maybe it will go away quickly. I like your idea that perhaps Jon will think Bran has died there and so, preserving the canon storyline. Very nice.

[Darryk]

It was a brilliant episode, and I'm really interested to see where they take these new developments. Bran at Craster's Keep, Locke joing the Night's Watch etc, as a book reader it's nice to be in suspense for once.

[gash]

i'm enjoying this season much more than previous ones as i have finally managed to seperate out the books and the show in my head. i couldn't fully enjoy yhe tv show last few seasons as i was constantly thinking about what was different in the books as well as getting less enjoyment from knowing exactly how things turn out. but now it seems to be diverging quite a bit i am actually open to surprises every episode.

[Toft]

Maybe Bran will warg into Hodor, who will set Ghost free & they escape in the ensuing mayhem, never to see Jon et al whatsoever..

Was totally tripping last nite tho during the ep ..

I am definitely expecting a Bran->Hodor warg pretty soon, now that the theme of warging is being more actively addressed. Note that Hodor was mysteriously absent while Bran et al were being abused.

I was stunned, especially by the last scene, at the degree to which things are catching up with and now overtaking the books. But all the while up until now, I've been watching the show knowing largely what will happen. I found tonight's twists - twists we as readers were warned to expect to be on the increase - really livened up the show for me.

Now if they can play it well and restore the main essence of the plot, while not destroying the characters' motivations, I shall be very happy. Otherwise if you insist on utter faithfulness then the show is a mere replica or celebration of the books: why not allow it to be something of its own after all?

Yet when it comes to finding out before reading it where this is all leading... I was intending to make that decision after this series or the next. To have it thrust upon me means I haven't had time to reflect.

Increasingly, whether or not I watch the show, the spoilers will get through. Just the other day I read an article by the former Prime Minister of Australia about the show. Audiences just keep on growing. Knowing a lot of what will happen, though, doesn't take away from the prose, which is hauntingly magical at times, and I'd rather have the show spoil things than random internet sites. Looks like that is the direction I will choose, at least for this series.

[Little Lord F***pants]

Picture an exec breathing down the director's neck, whispering in his ear "I represent the pervert side of the audience"

Because that's literally what's happening.

... while he's licking his ear & playing with his nipples.

[Jon-Michael Pearson]

Not sure if this on here but I dont think Jon runs into Bran for some reason I think Bran takes over for Hodor and kills most if not all the muntines and they leave before Jon and the Rangers get there.

[Little Lord F***pants]

As a fan of gratuitous sex on HBO for more than 30 years (anyone else remember that HBO used to only show R-rated films after 9 pm), what shocks me is that people are outraged by seeing things that the books never shrink from...GRRM describes sex in vivid detail throughout the books, so what's wrong with seeing it...

It's because there's no point to it. That's why it's called "gratuitous". And the fact that I'm a grown ass man who has seen a p**** or 2 in his life, I'm looking for something more with my dramas like... moving the story forward, as well as developing 1 of the 100 characters this show has brought into the fold rather than staring at boobies & wieners every episode. If I wanted that... I'd pop in a porno, which has more of a point than GoT sex scenes.... G'dammit!

[Osric]

This episode was awesome, I personally don't mind the "spoilers" because those are things that we almost knew for a fact. Right at the moment that Rast took the baby out I was almost praying for a white walker ritual, then it happened at the end... I was so excited.

As for the show taking a separated way from the books, it is not true, the main story lines are the same and all the changes are starting to make sense, and book readers need to not know what's happening in order to keep them (us) interested. So if some arch of the books is changed by the end of the show, imho, it would be good, I wouldn't mind an "alternative ending" for the show, and a "real ending" for the books - which I think it's what is going to happen as GRRM is not getting those books finished - as long as they both are good. Although even if both endings are the same, I'll still buy the dvd's and the books

[gash]

It's because there's no point to it. That's why it's called "gratuitous". And the fact that I'm a grown ass man who has seen a p**** or 2 in his life, I'm looking for something more with my dramas like... moving the story forward, as well as developing 1 of the 100 characters this show has brought into the fold rather than staring at boobies & wieners every episode. If I wanted that... I'd pop in a porno, which has more of a point than GoT sex scenes.... G'dammit!

so there's no point in the sex scenes in the tv show? what about the books? would you do away with all them as well?

[Bilbo Baggins]

I've got two points to make in regardes to the common criticisms I'm seeing in this thread.

1. Sam broke his promise to Bran and told Jon he is alive!
   Sam never made a promise to Bran in the show, in the books he made his promise to Coldhands and Coldhands isn't in the show. Not yet at least. Nobody ever asked Sam to keep it a secret so there is no reason to expect him to not tell Jon that his younger brother, whom is believed dead, is in fact alive.
   
   This doesn't mean Roose is going to find out. You guys are saying that because Jon knows Bran is alive Roose's claim to the North is lessened and Stannis' Jon Stark plan is pointless? Why would either Jon or Sam tell Roose that Bran is alive? And Stannis' plan was turned down anyways. I doubt Jon will be sending ravens across Westeros to let everyone know that "my crippled little brother is on the other side of the wall, so please don't try to steal Winterfell." That's ludacris and nobody would believe it. Besides, the Watch takes no part.
   
   There is nothing important in the books regarding Jon not knowing about Bran.
2. They made the Wildlings evil!
   I'm going to preface my point by saying that the cannibalism thing is quite cheesy and I don't like it. However, you're still incorrect. The Wildlings weren't made to be bad guys at all, the Thenn's were never good guys anyways. They aren't free folk, the Thenns are organized and ruthless. Tormen wasn't made evil, he clearly doesn't like the nasty shit Thenns do and neither does Ygritte. Rattleshirt is an ass in the show, but he is one in the books. And Mance wasn't made very evil either. This complaint just confuses me.
   

I think a lot of the criticism towards this episode stems from book readers not being able to cope with change. Somebody earlier said that Jon going to Craster's and Bran being at Craster's was a mess. It's not a mess, it's called a story. It's not convoluted at all and everything makes sense. The mutineers at Craster's were completely forgotten about in the books, Jon wanting to deal with them makes sense. Bran hearing a baby in the woods and wanting to investigate makes sense. The mutineers being total douchebags makes sense, they're criminals sent to the wall that betrayed their Lord Commander. This adds more danger and excitement to Bran's story, since he doesn't do much for a good long while and even by the end of A Dance With Dragons he hasn't done much. Jon doesn't do much either, right now he's basically just waiting for Stannis. Granted Ygritte and company's attack on Castle Black has yet to happen, but you know it's coming.

As for the White Walker at the end, we all knew the show was going to go past the books. The show is slated for 7 seasons, that's three and a half more after next week to cover the rest of A Storm of Swords, A Feast for Crows, A Dance With Dragons, The Winds of Winter, and the final book. Things are going to get condensed, fat is going to get trimmed, and winter is likely going to come a little quicker. You can't honestly expect the show to put itself on hold to wait for GRRM to take another 10 years to finish the series.