[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa VIII: Learning the Game

[Mladen]

As usual, welcome to the Discussing Sansa thread. With the usual notification of spoiler alert, plea for kindness and manners, I present you the discussion of Sansa scenes in Episode 4.04 called "Oathbreaker"

First, I will start with the obvious nod to the readers."Sansa is not an assassin... Not yet, anyway" is something that can be interpreted in many ways. With powerful pieces of foreshadowing pointing that Sansa might end LF's reign by killing him. Whether this was intentional, it is debatable, but it certainly tantalized many of us...

Second, the scene on the boat truly showed us the progress in Sansa's mindset. The scene contained many elements of the book in it, from the mistrust to LF and looming understanding what he wants to slowly comprehending how Game is played. This was tutorial 1.01 in playing Game, and Sansa passed with well, if not flying colors, then certainly very well. Sansa in the series has truly became interesting sort of creature. I have to say that the redemption for ghastly boring 3rd season is finally coming...

All and all, interesting episode, both in narrative sense and introductory to the new relationship between Sansa and LF. I am truly excited to see Sansa in the upcoming episodes...

[Mladen]

Here is Inside the episode video where producers analyzed couple of scenes, including the one with LF/Sansa

I like where they think this is going. LF telling the truths to Sansa out of belief she is powerless (well, she is at the moment) is something that was done subtly in the text. But the key word here is "at the moment" since Sansa is slowly gaining the knowledge not only how Game is played, but the insight into someone's mind who truly did some rather horrendous things. It is rather interesting dynamics, not just because of what Sansa might become under LF's tutelage, but also because of resolving the Gordian knot of what has happened in the dawn of Wo5K.

[Chebyshov]

Second, the scene on the boat truly showed us the progress in Sansa's mindset. The scene contained many elements of the book in it, from the mistrust to LF and looming understanding what he wants to slowly comprehending how Game is played. This was tutorial 1.01 in playing Game, and Sansa passed with well, if not flying colors, then certainly very well. Sansa in the series has truly became interesting sort of creature. I have to say that the redemption for ghastly boring 3rd season is finally coming...

All and all, interesting episode, both in narrative sense and introductory to the new relationship between Sansa and LF. I am truly excited to see Sansa in the upcoming episodes...

Can't emphasize this enough. I loved how Sansa immediately jumped on Littlefinger's explanation of his motives and was like "there's no way you'd risk all of this to confuse your enemies" (paraphrasing, obviously). Sansa is sharp, and there's much she's going to be keeping from LF; his underestimation will be his downfall.

Definitely saw that "not yet anyway" as foreshadowing to Sansa the Giantslayer.

[Sand11751]

I was wondering when this thread would pop up.

The "not yet" definitely had me perked up as well, because I'm a strong believer that for Sansa to survive all this, she's going to have use some of the weapons people have employed against her and family. I actually have liked the way the books played out by having her with Littlefucker; he has a lot more to teach her than those slimy kisses. There's something very gratifying about learning the "tricks of the trade" and turning them against those who've hurt you most. I also enjoyed LF's boastfulness on the show, because it suggests that he is susceptible to letting his own tongue get the best of him, while she stands there taking it all in and making sense of it in her head. He liked that little game with her, revealing a bit about the necklace's role in Joff's death coupled with that clever little hint about his new allies and how their relations "grow strong" but in the end, I think he's going to find himself at the mercy of a young woman who has learned a lot from him.

I've enjoyed Sansa's character overall, and ignore most complaints about her lacking agency; GRRM painted the character that way to contrast with her sister. I think these two will survive to series' end; one learning by cunning and martial weapons, the other setting her own path by analysis. Sansa's artlessness has been the armor she needed to shield her from some of the horrid things she had to survive in KL. It might seem she's in greater danger by being with LF, but I think being in the Eyrie with LF is going to teach that little bird how to fly. And not out the moon door either.

[Lady of Dragonstone]

In another thread, I referenced that this episode showed Sansa literally going from pawn to player. My Unsullied mother caught that line and fully believes Sansa will be the one to take LF down, and I agree.

Sansa is often compared to Catelyn, by other characters, and most of all by LF, and it's certain that his obsession with her stems from his obsession with Cat. Petyr relied on the Tully family throughout his youth, and trusted Catelyn. When his life was in danger (from a Stark, no less) Catelyn was the one who called to the foe to spare his life. Interestingly, although Sansa is Catelyn's doppleganger in appearance, I think she is the child most like her father. LF trusts Sansa because she seems meek, and because of the fact that since he equates Sansa with Cat in his mind, he believes he can trust her to be "on his side." Ultimately this will result in his biggest failure.. Sansa will take his life instead of sparing it.

I like that in a way, Sansa is doing what her parents failed to do (Catelyn spared LF, Ned trusted him). For me, I see her being the child who rights the wrongs of these ill decisions. Sansa does have the agency to avenge LF for the wrongs he has done the Starks and the Tullys. She just knows patience is a friend.

[Newstar]

"Not yet, anyway" was one of the most blatant bits of show-only foreshadowing that the show has provided to date. The fact that the line transitioned to a scene with Sansa and LF could mean either 1) Sansa kills LF or 2) Sansa, corrupted by LF's influence, kills someone.

Interesting that TV Sansa immediately denies that Tyrion murdered Joffrey and says "I just do" when asked how she knows that, even though she readily comes up with logical explanations for her other conclusions. Book Sansa certainly believed Tyrion could have done it (and vice versa, although Book Tyrion never thought Sansa could have pulled it off by herself, as I recall, whereas TV Tyrion just states that Sansa's not a killer...yet). Curious change from the books.

[Chebyshov]

"Not yet, anyway" was one of the most blatant bits of show-only foreshadowing that the show has provided to date. The fact that the line transitioned to a scene with Sansa and LF could mean either 1) Sansa kills LF or 2) Sansa, corrupted by LF's influence, kills someone.

Interesting that TV Sansa immediately denies that Tyrion murdered Joffrey and says "I just do" when asked how she knows that, even though she readily comes up with logical explanations for her other conclusions. Book Sansa certainly believed Tyrion could have done it (and vice versa, although Book Tyrion never thought Sansa could have pulled it off by herself, as I recall, whereas TV Tyrion just states that Sansa's not a killer...yet). Curious change from the books.

Eh, Book!Sansa thought he was innocent too, though the speed at which she defends him in the show is definitely a change:

Sometimes she dreamed of Tyrion as well. “He did nothing,” she told Littlefinger once, when he paid a visit to her cabin to see if she were feeling any better.

“He did not kill Joffrey, true, but the dwarf’s hands are far from clean. He had a wife before you, did you know that?”

[Ruin]

Sophie was really good this episode, especially her facial expressions.

[Mladen]

Can't emphasize this enough. I loved how Sansa immediately jumped on Littlefinger's explanation of his motives and was like "there's no way you'd risk all of this to confuse your enemies" (paraphrasing, obviously). Sansa is sharp, and there's much she's going to be keeping from LF; his underestimation will be his downfall.

Yes, I think that people usually underestimate Sansa's intelligence. In this episode, she saw right through his facade and called that a BS.

As for foreshadowing in terms of "not yet", it was rather interesting line... Well, I do believe she will end LF's reign, not sure about killing, but alas, this was interesting push in that direction. Also, a piece of TV foreshadowing that I always find great when it comes to Sansa is Tyrion's: "Lady Stark, you may survive us yet" from the second season.

I was wondering when this thread would pop up.

Well, there was overload of new threads being posted after Episode 4. Thus the delay. The next edition will come before airing...

Sophie was really good this episode, especially her facial expressions.

I think Sophie's forte has become her facial expression... She nails it every single episode

[Newstar]

True, Chebyshov, but "He did nothing" came only well after LF explained that Tyrion in fact did nothing. It was hardly something that she "just knew."

I wouldn't think that much of it were it not for this quote from a Spanish language magazine interview with Sophie Turner (the April issue, I think), where Sophie Turner says the following when asked about the influence of Tyrion and Sansa's relationship on Sansa (translated from Spanish):

"[Cutting out some stuff about Joffrey] Tyrion is her only and true friend, he's the only one who's been honest with her. Well, she has Shae but Shae's not completely sincere with Sansa. She could trust Tyrion completely, if she wished to. It's one of the most important relationships in Game of Thrones, especially for my character."

I didn't think that much of it at the time (blah blah blah whitewashing), but after 4x04 and Alex Graves' recent revelation that he is spoiled for post-ADWD books and spoils the actors so that they know how to act in certain scenes, I'm starting to wonder about the possibilities for Sansa and Tyrion becoming (platonic, to be clear) allies in the future, post-ADWD. The HBO viewers' guide talking all about Tyrion treating Sansa with the utmost respect could be whitewashing, or it could be setting something up down the line for a reasonably amicable alliance.

[salmonsnake]

Good that they are making her pick up on things faster now, but it is also very good that she was the way she was in the earlier seasons. When you show one, the viewers can imagine that there are a dozen Sansa-types fluttering around every court, always seeming either naïve or utterly terrified or both. When pretty much the entire palette of forces and everyone's concurrent machinations are shown to the viewers, they might get frustrated by her subdued survival, but that frustration is not a smart way to see her angle.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

There are a few ways to interpret "Killer" other than literally, and I think this is an especially cool line when you compare Sansa with Arya. You get the feeling that if he were speaking of Arya instead, that line would seem to make more sense literally. But when spoken about Sansa...There are more ways to become a "Killer" than learning how to fight with a sword, so I'm actually sort of excited for Sansa's future now.

[Chebyshov]

True, Chebyshov, but "He did nothing" came only well after LF explained that Tyrion in fact did nothing. It was hardly something that she "just knew."

I wouldn't think that much of it were it not for this quote from a Spanish language magazine interview with Sophie Turner (the April issue, I think), where Sophie Turner says the following when asked about the influence of Tyrion and Sansa's relationship on Sansa (translated from Spanish):

"[Cutting out some stuff about Joffrey] Tyrion is her only and true friend, he's the only one who's been honest with her. Well, she has Shae but Shae's not completely sincere with Sansa. She could trust Tyrion completely, if she wished to. It's one of the most important relationships in Game of Thrones, especially for my character."

I didn't think that much of it at the time (blah blah blah whitewashing), but after 4x04 and Alex Graves' recent revelation that he is spoiled for post-ADWD books and spoils the actors so that they know how to act in certain scenes, I'm starting to wonder about the possibilities for Sansa and Tyrion becoming (platonic, to be clear) allies in the future, post-ADWD. The HBO viewers' guide talking all about Tyrion treating Sansa with the utmost respect could be whitewashing, or it could be setting something up down the line for a reasonably amicable alliance.

Really, really interesting perspective from her. I'm hoping you're right about foreshadowing an alliance between them later (probably with an annulment thrown in), because it is a notable change from the books.

[Newstar]

Really, really interesting perspective from her. I'm hoping you're right about foreshadowing an alliance between them later (probably with an annulment thrown in), because it is a notable change from the books.

That sounds about right to me. I'm really interested in everything we're seeing in Season 4 from a foreshadowing/clues perspective, since Season 4 was the first season written after the writers had been spoiled in detail as to future plots (as opposed to just knowing the ending in broad strokes). The little details will matter a lot more, which is why Tyrion's "Not yet, anyway" and Sansa's "I just do" caught my attention.

The other thing about that quote is that Sophie Turner describes the Sansa/Tyrion relationship as one of the most important in GOT. That's a pretty tall order, considering how many relationships there are in GOT, and it also seems at odds with what we've seen of the books to date, where Sansa and Tyrion's relationship is not particularly important to them, let alone the narrative. Very curious where that's going.

[Colonel Green]

"Not yet, anyway" was one of the most blatant bits of show-only foreshadowing that the show has provided to date. The fact that the line transitioned to a scene with Sansa and LF could mean either 1) Sansa kills LF or 2) Sansa, corrupted by LF's influence, kills someone.

Interesting that TV Sansa immediately denies that Tyrion murdered Joffrey and says "I just do" when asked how she knows that, even though she readily comes up with logical explanations for her other conclusions. Book Sansa certainly believed Tyrion could have done it (and vice versa, although Book Tyrion never thought Sansa could have pulled it off by herself, as I recall, whereas TV Tyrion just states that Sansa's not a killer...yet). Curious change from the books.

I don't think that's indicative of anything on its own. It's part of of the show's adaptational trends, namely, the minimization of conflicts between "hero" characters whenever possible. Hence, pretty much everything about how Sansa/Tyrion was handled, the fact that Dany never talks about wanting revenge on the Starks et al., Catelyn apologizing for not loving Jon Snow, Margaery being Sansa's genuine pal instead of the Tyrells dropping her like a hot potato, etc.

The other thing about that quote is that Sophie Turner describes the Sansa/Tyrion relationship as one of the most important in GOT. That's a pretty tall order, considering how many relationships there are in GOT, and it also seems at odds with what we've seen of the books to date, where Sansa and Tyrion's relationship is not particularly important to them, let alone the narrative. Very curious where that's going.

She also gave several interviews where she said the exact opposite of that.

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

True, Chebyshov, but "He did nothing" came only well after LF explained that Tyrion in fact did nothing. It was hardly something that she "just knew."

I wouldn't think that much of it were it not for this quote from a Spanish language magazine interview with Sophie Turner (the April issue, I think), where Sophie Turner says the following when asked about the influence of Tyrion and Sansa's relationship on Sansa (translated from Spanish):

"[Cutting out some stuff about Joffrey] Tyrion is her only and true friend, he's the only one who's been honest with her. Well, she has Shae but Shae's not completely sincere with Sansa. She could trust Tyrion completely, if she wished to. It's one of the most important relationships in Game of Thrones, especially for my character."

I didn't think that much of it at the time (blah blah blah whitewashing), but after 4x04 and Alex Graves' recent revelation that he is spoiled for post-ADWD books and spoils the actors so that they know how to act in certain scenes, I'm starting to wonder about the possibilities for Sansa and Tyrion becoming (platonic, to be clear) allies in the future, post-ADWD. The HBO viewers' guide talking all about Tyrion treating Sansa with the utmost respect could be whitewashing, or it could be setting something up down the line for a reasonably amicable alliance.

Even more interesting is the fact that she's still wearing her wedding ring (you can see it in the preview for "First of his Name"). Was initially thinking it was an oversight, but then I thought, how do you forget you have a wedding ring on? Quite frankly, I'm surprised she still has it on, especially at the Eyrie. She's supposed to be 'incognito'. Take the massive Lannister-colored wedding ring off woman! You're in 'hiding'. :p

[Colonel Green]

Even more interesting is the fact that she's still wearing her wedding ring (you can see it in the preview for "First of his Name"). Was initially thinking it was an oversight, but then I thought, how do you forget you have a wedding ring on? Quite frankly, I'm surprised she still has it on, especially at the Eyrie. She's supposed to be 'incognito'. Take the massive Lannister-colored wedding ring off woman! You're in 'hiding'. :P

She also appears to still have her King's Landing wardrobe even though she didn't know to take anything with her in advance.

[Chebyshov]

The other thing about that quote is that Sophie Turner describes the Sansa/Tyrion relationship as one of the most important in GOT. That's a pretty tall order, considering how many relationships there are in GOT, and it also seems at odds with what we've seen of the books to date, where Sansa and Tyrion's relationship is not particularly important to them, let alone the narrative. Very curious where that's going.

Exactly. In the books Tyrion represents everything that Sansa has come to hate (the Lannisters), and doesn't place much significance on the marriage. In post, she dreams of him often, but replaces him with The Hound in almost every situation, so it's hard to argue that Tyrion himself had any lasting impact. She does think of him as "kind" at times, but given the men she's generally around, I think this may have been faint praise.

“Yes.” Sansa knew the truth of her flowering could not be long hidden in the Eyrie.

“Tyrion didn’t . . . he never . . . ” She could feel the blush creeping up her cheeks. “I am

still a maid.”

“Was the dwarf incapable?”

“No. He was only . . . he was . . . ” Kind? She could not say that, not here, not to this aunt

who hated him so. “He . . . he had whores, my lady. He told me so.”

However, Sophie seems to be hinting that Sansa may come to trust Tyrion, which would have significant consequences leading forward. I'm very curious to see if and how she talks about Tyrion to Lysa. We might get something a bit deeper than her "I never wanted to marry him" that we get in the books.

[Newstar]

Even more interesting is the fact that she's still wearing her wedding ring (you can see it in the preview for "First of his Name"). Was initially thinking it was an oversight, but then I thought, how do you forget you have a wedding ring on? Quite frankly, I'm surprised she still has it on, especially at the Eyrie. She's supposed to be 'incognito'. Take the massive Lannister-colored wedding ring off woman! You're in 'hiding'. :p

Yeah, dunno what was up with that. Seems odd that Sansa wouldn't have ditched the ring at the first available opportunity. I sort of envisioned a scene where Sansa chucked the ring into the sea with relish. If Alayne Stone is going to be a thing, I assume the ring will be dealt with in 4x05. The shot from the 4x05 preview with Lysa holding Sansa's hands seemed to feature the ring fairly prominently.

I hope we get some explanation as to why Sansa is wearing her Blackwater dress and not her PW dress in 4x05, since she escaped from KL with only the clothes on her back.

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

Yeah, dunno what was up with that. Seems odd that Sansa wouldn't have ditched the ring at the first available opportunity. I sort of envisioned a scene where Sansa chucked the ring into the sea with relish. If Alayne Stone is going to be a thing, I assume the ring will be dealt with in 4x05.

I think exactly like you do. I would have thought she'd of thrown it overboard by now. That she still has it on kind of makes me feel like they'll use it at a visual representation of her changing identities (i.e. going from Lady Lannister to Alayne Stone) once she takes it off. I don't know. I just think its interesting--in a general sense--that she's still wearing it. Kind of indicative that their relationship in the show is indeed, very different from the books. I kind of feel like Book Sansa would have throw that overboard the first chance she got. Show Sansa....eh...she'll wear it a little while longer.