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[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa VIII: Learning the Game


Mladen

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They should absolutely keep the snow castle scene. It has the potential to transform everyone's idea of Sansa, (along with her own) if done right.

I think they'll keep it, but I'm guessing episode 8 for that and Only Cat in 10. In season promos I think we see her in the snow.

Glad to hear about Sweetrobin being the same actor. I like consistency where feasible.

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I always thought having her wear a wedding ring in the first place was kind of dumb, both because it wasn't a thing in the books and because I don't think other married female characters in the series wear wedding rings, either. Of course, if it's going to be a capital-m Moment when she removes the ring as you suggest to mark her transformation into Alayne, then that might explain it.

...Still kind of disappointed she didn't throw it into the sea. That would have been suitably dramatic, if a little cornball. I had that scene pictured so clearly in my mind that I was really surprised when I saw the preview and she was still wearing it.

Speaking of physical transformations, I'm kind of peeved that Sansa in the Eyrie snow scene from the Season 4 trailers, by which point she's presumably masquerading as Alayne, is wearing her Blackwater dress. Come on.

On another note, it seems to be assumed that "Only Cat" will be in 4x10 along with all the other big climactic scenes. The promo for 4x05 seems to be zipping right through Sansa's storyline, though. Could "Only Cat" be as early as Mockingbird, the 4x07 episode?

Something none of you may have considered yet - perhaps they will do away with the "Alayne" story altogether? This would explain why she's wearing noble clothes and continues to wear her wedding ring. I suspect this because there's a shot in the preview showing her being held / hugged by Lysa and also because Littlefinger should have told her she was going incognito during the two ship scenes - they can't drag that scene out any longer so when is she going to be told she's going disguised and why?

Why this could work:

  • Speeds up the plot line at the Eyrie so they can get straight to the killing of Lysa faster
  • Reduces the number of scenes needed
  • Adds drama because once again Sansa thinks she's 'safe' or has a 'future' (like when she thought she was marrying Loras) only to have it ripped away again.
  • The story arc isn't that crucial for the overall story line between Sansa, Littlefinger and Lysa.

Just a theory as to why she's not disguised as "Alayne" in any of the snippets we've seen so far.

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Yeah, Sansa still in highborn-appropriate clothes and with red hair by the time the snow castle scene rolls around makes me wonder. On the other hand, it makes no sense not to come up with a fake identity for Sansa. How would that even work?

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Yeah, Sansa still in highborn-appropriate clothes and with red hair by the time the snow castle scene rolls around makes me wonder. On the other hand, it makes no sense not to come up with a fake identity for Sansa. How would that even work?

The Vale / Eyrie is certainly far enough removed from the rest of the Seven Kingdoms - would it really matter if anyone in the castle knows she's Sansa Stark? We already know it doesn't matter in regards to Lysa with her own fate coming soon. Maybe instead of the whole "Alayne" farce, Littlefinger will simply forbid anyone from leaving the castle (which during certain times of year isn't possible anyways) so her presence there is unknown. That way she can interact with Lysa as the only 'known' survivor of Winterfell at this point - it will pull on heartstrings a lot more.

Edit: Also - everyone knows Lysa fled King's Landing and has rejected the Baratheons / Lannisters as rulers after her husband's death so it's not that much of a stretch to think she'd also harbor her 'traitor' niece.

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The Vale / Eyrie is certainly far enough removed from the rest of the Seven Kingdoms - would it really matter if anyone in the castle knows she's Sansa Stark? We already know it doesn't matter in regards to Lysa with her own fate coming soon. Maybe instead of the whole "Alayne" farce, Littlefinger will simply forbid anyone from leaving the castle (which during certain times of year isn't possible anyways) so her presence there is unknown. That way she can interact with Lysa as the only 'known' survivor of Winterfell at this point - it will pull on heartstrings a lot more.

Edit: Also - everyone knows Lysa fled King's Landing and has rejected the Baratheons / Lannisters as rulers after her husband's death so it's not that much of a stretch to think she'd also harbor her 'traitor' niece.

No, that wouldn't make any sense. We know that outsiders are coming to the castle this season (the lords), and those characters will presumably be back later to interact further. Sansa's location would get out, and the Lannisters would try to retrieve her; even if it didn't, the lords knowing who Sansa was would completely alter how they interact with her and, for that matter, with Littlefinger.

I suspect this because there's a shot in the preview showing her being held / hugged by Lysa

Why would that indicate anything? Lysa is aware of who Sansa is, and they talk privately in the book.

and also because Littlefinger should have told her she was going incognito during the two ship scenes - they can't drag that scene out any longer so when is she going to be told she's going disguised and why?

They could introduce the identity just by having Littlefinger introduce her to Lysa in that guise when they get to the Eyrie, for instance; or just have another scene in the next episode where the idea is broached, perhaps on their way there, since we can see they have a scene outdoors.

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The Vale / Eyrie is certainly far enough removed from the rest of the Seven Kingdoms - would it really matter if anyone in the castle knows she's Sansa Stark? We already know it doesn't matter in regards to Lysa with her own fate coming soon. Maybe instead of the whole "Alayne" farce, Littlefinger will simply forbid anyone from leaving the castle (which during certain times of year isn't possible anyways) so her presence there is unknown. That way she can interact with Lysa as the only 'known' survivor of Winterfell at this point - it will pull on heartstrings a lot more.

Edit: Also - everyone knows Lysa fled King's Landing and has rejected the Baratheons / Lannisters as rulers after her husband's death so it's not that much of a stretch to think she'd also harbor her 'traitor' niece.

TBH, this doesn't make much sense to me. We are talking about Lysa who refused to help her family, frightened and manipulated Lysa. There is no way Sansa's identity would be open to everyone. It would be too risky and dangerous. And given that Sandor firstly named Lysa, Vale is the first location anyone would look for Sansa. So it would be nonsensical to flaunt Sansa around when she is looked for murder of the King.

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No, that wouldn't make any sense. We know that outsiders are coming to the castle this season (the lords), and those characters will presumably be back later to interact further. Sansa's location would get out, and the Lannisters would try to retrieve her; even if it didn't, the lords knowing who Sansa was would completely alter how they interact with her and, for that matter, with Littlefinger.

Why would that indicate anything? Lysa is aware of who Sansa is, and they talk privately in the book.

They could introduce the identity just by having Littlefinger introduce her to Lysa in that guise when they get to the Eyrie, for instance; or just have another scene in the next episode where the idea is broached, perhaps on their way there, since we can see they have a scene outdoors.

I just don't think the show viewers are going to buy the disguise because by this point (rapid fast forward of time) word is getting out that Sansa fled King's Landing and what she looks like. She's very obviously Catelyn's daughter - hair, looks, everything. They make no attempts to change that in the show's previews for upcoming episodes.

That's why I think they will drop the Alayne disguise in favor of another plot line.

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TBH, this doesn't make much sense to me. We are talking about Lysa who refused to help her family, frightened and manipulated Lysa. There is no way Sansa's identity would be open to everyone. It would be too risky and dangerous. And given that Sandor firstly named Lysa, Vale is the first location anyone would look for Sansa. So it would be nonsensical to flaunt Sansa around when she is looked for murder of the King.

Ok, I can agree with your logic there - it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense NOT to disguise her... but there's absolutely no indication they're going that route and plenty of footage shown where she still looks very much like Sansa stark... hair, clothing, even her wedding ring on.

Just a theory of mine at this point. They're going to want to condense as much of the Eyrie story as possible to save on time / scenes and speed it up.

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Ok, I can agree with your logic there - it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense NOT to disguise her... but there's absolutely no indication they're going that route and plenty of footage shown where she still looks very much like Sansa stark... hair, clothing, even her wedding ring on.

Just a theory of mine at this point. They're going to want to condense as much of the Eyrie story as possible to save on time / scenes and speed it up.

No, I am not saying that you make no sense, but if the producers reject the entire facade of Alayne Stone, then we have a serious problem of what that means. I doubt if one castle knows who she is, that the people in Vale wouldn't know that too. Also, it makes on sense to drop her mask given that everyone were looking to Vale until Lysa was killed. Also, I do think you are right... Her clothing, hair, even the ring, it's all there. I expected to see Sophie not dying her hair anymore, but from all we know, that didn't happen... It's confusing...

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No, that wouldn't make any sense. We know that outsiders are coming to the castle this season (the lords), and those characters will presumably be back later to interact further. Sansa's location would get out, and the Lannisters would try to retrieve her; even if it didn't, the lords knowing who Sansa was would completely alter how they interact with her and, for that matter, with Littlefinger.

Why would that indicate anything? Lysa is aware of who Sansa is, and they talk privately in the book.

They could introduce the identity just by having Littlefinger introduce her to Lysa in that guise when they get to the Eyrie, for instance; or just have another scene in the next episode where the idea is broached, perhaps on their way there, since we can see they have a scene outdoors.

Sansa is not in the Alayne guise when she meets Lysa, as she's still wearing her wedding ring. I don't think that means that she won't be incognito as Alayne at all, though, although it grinds my gears that in what looks like the snow scene she's wearing her Blackwater dress and not something bastard-appropriate.

Sansa's KL dresses were nothing to write home about and in Season 3 were all in drab and muddy colours, so I really hope that her bastard dresses are suitably shabby to demonstrate the contrast. If she spends Season 5 swanning around in dresses just as nice as her KL ones, I'm going to be pretty pressed.

The decision not to darken Sansa's hair mystifies me. Fair enough if Sophie Turner doesn't want to dye her hair, but can't they spring for a wig or colour her hair in post production or something?

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No, I am not saying that you make no sense, but if the producers reject the entire facade of Alayne Stone, then we have a serious problem of what that means. I doubt if one castle knows who she is, that the people in Vale wouldn't know that too. Also, it makes on sense to drop her mask given that everyone were looking to Vale until Lysa was killed. Also, I do think you are right... Her clothing, hair, even the ring, it's all there. I expected to see Sophie not dying her hair anymore, but from all we know, that didn't happen... It's confusing...

I don't know if it would be a serious plot problem or not. They seem to be creating larger plot issues elsewhere so dropping the disguise might be mild by comparison to some changes (like Jon knowing about Bran) that to me at least seem much more significant.

Also, how many people do they really need to show at the Eyrie? Sure, there were plenty of people in the throne room during Tyrion's 'trial' - but do they all need to be there when Littlefinger arrives? If they are there (for the marriage) then perhaps they'll just keep Sansa closeted away somewhere as a 'secret' - and even though yes Lysa's paranoid and probably wouldn't hesitate to either kill or reject Sansa in normal circumstances - we have to remember she's getting the "love of her life" as a husband and likely conspires with him to keep Sansa's identity secret to please him. Not too far off from the books even if the disguise is dropped.

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Sansa's KL dresses were nothing to write home about and in Season 3 were all in drab and muddy colours, so I really hope that her bastard dresses are suitably shabby to demonstrate the contrast. If she spends Season 5 swanning around in dresses just as nice as her KL ones, I'm going to be pretty pressed.

Well, when they weren't with "company" Alayne was typically wearing Lysa's old clothes, so she was still dressing reasonably well (though she also later thinks about being sick of dressingly drably when she leaves the Eyrie, which doesn't square with that).

Ok, I can agree with your logic there - it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense NOT to disguise her... but there's absolutely no indication they're going that route and plenty of footage shown where she still looks very much like Sansa stark... hair, clothing, even her wedding ring on.

Just a theory of mine at this point. They're going to want to condense as much of the Eyrie story as possible to save on time / scenes and speed it up.

What you're describing wouldn't be "condensing" the plotline. The only outcome of that would be a Lannister invasion of the Vale of Arryn.

Also, how many people do they really need to show at the Eyrie? Sure, there were plenty of people in the throne room during Tyrion's 'trial' - but do they all need to be there when Littlefinger arrives? If they are there (for the marriage) then perhaps they'll just keep Sansa closeted away somewhere as a 'secret'

How would they keep the servants from talking? In any event, Sansa has to be able to interact with the outside characters, seeing as that's a big part of her story going forward. How is she going to do anything if she can't even meet with the Lords Declarant, Myranda, or whoever?

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I don't know if it would be a serious plot problem or not. They seem to be creating larger plot issues elsewhere so dropping the disguise might be mild by comparison to some changes (like Jon knowing about Bran) that to me at least seem much more significant.

IDK what is in their heads, but dropping the disguise is not a mild change of the plot, it is actually stupid writing. If she flaunts around Vale as Sansa Stark, people would find that out ASAP and as Colonel Green said, it would result only in Lannister invasion. I simply don't see how believable that change could be made...

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Well, when they weren't with "company" Alayne was typically wearing Lysa's old clothes, so she was still dressing reasonably well (though she also later thinks about being sick of dressingly drably when she leaves the Eyrie, which doesn't square with that).

What you're describing wouldn't be "condensing" the plotline. The only outcome of that would be a Lannister invasion of the Vale of Arryn.

How would they keep the servants from talking? In any event, Sansa has to be able to interact with the outside characters, seeing as that's a big part of her story going forward. How is she going to do anything if she can't even meet with the Lords Declarant, Myranda, or whoever?

No one says the Lannisters have to find out she's there. I know, unbelievable maybe but it's entirely possible they're going to rely on the Eyrie being 'remote' and the fact that they all believe Littlefinger to have been long gone weeks ago - remember? How could Sansa magically appear with him when he should have been in the Eyrie so long before the poisoning happened in the first place? He DOES say: "A man with no motives is not likely to be looked at as suspect" to reconfirm he's arranged the whole thing for a major CYA on his own behalf which is very Littlefinger-like in the scheme of things.

Disguising Sansa was also a CYA move but less important now that they've revealed the whole plot of his conspiracy with the Tyrells already in the show. Viewers won't care if Sansa's disguised or not - they've already been given Littlefinger's whole Alibi!

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Sansa is careful when masquerading as Alayne not to dress above her station, though.

From what I remember of Season 1, the Eyrie ladies wore those weird dresses with the draping puffy "sleeves." I really hope Sansa doesn't wear a similar style, as those dresses struck me as really ugly.

In Envie's defence, we don't know how Alayne Stone will be dealt with in the show, and as even 4x04 proved with Bran, the writers are not afraid of huge deviations in the interest of spicing things up. I personally don't see how they could pull off Sansa in the Vale interacting with others without a fake identity, but I'm not writing the show, so who knows what they'll do?

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In Envie's defence, we don't know how Alayne Stone will be dealt with in the show, and as even 4x04 proved with Bran, the writers are not afraid of huge deviations in the interest of spicing things up.

See, I never understood the fuss around that, because that's not really that huge a deviation. It's an obstacle on the way to the same destination. Getting rid of the "Alayne" disguise would render basically Sansa's entire story unworkable.

No one says the Lannisters have to find out she's there. I know, unbelievable maybe but it's entirely possible they're going to rely on the Eyrie being 'remote' and the fact that they all believe Littlefinger to have been long gone weeks ago - remember? How could Sansa magically appear with him when he should have been in the Eyrie so long before the poisoning happened in the first place? He DOES say: "A man with no motives is not likely to be looked at as suspect" to reconfirm he's arranged the whole thing for a major CYA on his own behalf which is very Littlefinger-like in the scheme of things.

Disguising Sansa was also a CYA move but less important now that they've revealed the whole plot of his conspiracy with the Tyrells already in the show. Viewers won't care if Sansa's disguised or not - they've already been given Littlefinger's whole Alibi!

Littlefinger's alibi would be meaningless if he actually had a girl named Sansa Stark hanging around with him.

Moreover, if the writers were sufficiently confident in the "remoteness" of the Vale, why would the Alayne disguise be implausible just because Sansa (supposedly, though not actually) looks like Catelyn?

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Sansa is careful when masquerading as Alayne not to dress above her station, though.

From what I remember of Season 1, the Eyrie ladies wore those weird dresses with the draping puffy "sleeves." I really hope Sansa doesn't wear a similar style, as those dresses struck me as really ugly.

In Envie's defence, we don't know how Alayne Stone will be dealt with in the show, and as even 4x04 proved with Bran, the writers are not afraid of huge deviations in the interest of spicing things up. I personally don't see how they could pull off Sansa in the Vale interacting with others without a fake identity, but I'm not writing the show, so who knows what they'll do?

Well I appreciate your support but my theory may end up just that, theory. I don't know anymore than anyone else what stories they choose to change and which ones they decide are important enough to keep in. The very first time I was completely floored by what I thought was a massive plot change (I think that was with "Talisa" (Robb, pregnancy, death etc) - I had to really accept the fact they were going to take some of the story and change it dramatically from the books. Some of the changes I've agreed with and others I'm still left wondering why or how believable it was for show viewers vs. book readers.

I guess we'll find out soon enough whether or not those fancy dresses mean she's not going to be in disguise or not!

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I agree that the treatment of Sansa's character is improved this season. Maybe they're going to unfold her slowly, as they said they would do with the hound. The scene with her LF was well-balanced, Sansabeing sufficiently suspicious and LF being sufficiently creepy.



Something I've always wondered though - why doesn't anyone even suspect that she may be at the Eyrie?That would seem like the most logical place for her to go, with or without LF's help.

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I agree that the treatment of Sansa's character is improved this season. Maybe they're going to unfold her slowly, as they said they would do with the hound. The scene with her LF was well-balanced, Sansabeing sufficiently suspicious and LF being sufficiently creepy.

Something I've always wondered though - why doesn't anyone even suspect that she may be at the Eyrie?That would seem like the most logical place for her to go, with or without LF's help.

Littlefinger was ordered, by Tywin, to dispatch immediately for the Vale and to wed Lysa Arryn and bring the Vale "into the fold" months before Joffrey's death and Sansa's disappearance. Littlefinger did a good job of creating a fairly infallible alibi and keeping Sansa right under their noses (the last place they'll look because it's so obvious) is very daring but very perfectly Littlefinger.

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Something I've always wondered though - why doesn't anyone even suspect that she may be at the Eyrie?That would seem like the most logical place for her to go, with or without LF's help.

Brienne initially heads to the Eyrie because of that possibility, but after hearing that Lysa is dead she abandons the idea (somewhat illogically, since that doesn't account for the idea that Sansa might have already been there).

More generally, Littlefinger is at the Eyrie, and to the rest of the world Littlefinger is a loyal Lannister agent, so obviously Sansa wouldn't be there.

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