[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa VIII: Learning the Game

[El Guapo]

Sansa is not in the Alayne guise when she meets Lysa, as she's still wearing her wedding ring. I don't think that means that she won't be incognito as Alayne at all, though, although it grinds my gears that in what looks like the snow scene she's wearing her Blackwater dress and not something bastard-appropriate.

Sansa's KL dresses were nothing to write home about and in Season 3 were all in drab and muddy colours, so I really hope that her bastard dresses are suitably shabby to demonstrate the contrast. If she spends Season 5 swanning around in dresses just as nice as her KL ones, I'm going to be pretty pressed.

The decision not to darken Sansa's hair mystifies me. Fair enough if Sophie Turner doesn't want to dye her hair, but can't they spring for a wig or colour her hair in post production or something?

Actually a few months ago she mentioned that she was thinking of changing her hair color. Perhaps there holding it off to season 5.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/article-2590004/Sophie-Turner-The-power-Thrones.html

That’s also why she’s thinking of changing that plush curtain of red hair (it’s naturally blonde but it’s stayed red ever since she was cast in Game of Thrones) for something more outré. ‘I want to have, like, a crazy hair change – I don’t like the thought of people pinning me down to a certain look or a certain stereotype.’

[Colonel Green]

Perhaps there holding it off to season 5.

That wouldn't work either. Changing her hair after she's already moved to the Eyrie would be far more suspicious than being a redhead.

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

It is interesting to note that Sansa is not afraid at all of Baelish since she rather bluntly threw accusations marked as questions into his face. There is no facial, body language or verbal restrainment towards him, compared to being at court before.

Only Tyrion got HBO Sansa's, contrary to book Sansa, honest emotions of sadness and fury. So much more dignified than the mousy silence in the books. But then Sophie Turner's Sansa is much more mature than book Sansa. And, see quotes above, Tyrion is the one she trusts so far not to betray her.

Does she trust Baelish not to harm her? Does Baelish please his own sense of grandeur by sharing his awesomeness with Sansa, seeing her as powerless? And yet she feels safe enough to be sharp towards him.

Maybe showmakers don't want to make it easy for Baelish to draw her on his side, don't want to present her as naive any longer when she asked the right questions, a true task for Baelish, not an easy prey. They may keep it open for a while if Sansa will side with LF. Nothing is spoiled so far since it is very much open in the books as well.

But this Sansa won't stumble naively into Baelish's traps, she may make conscious decisions to side with him or not. So she may follow Baelish's plans in whatever way and become a killer. Or HBO Sansa may truly become an active Sherlock, find out some things and be the end of Baelish, revenge served cold.

I'm glad that you pointed out her immediate distrust and lack of fear/restraint towards Baelish. I noticed it right off the bat as well, especially with the tone of her opening comment to Baelish on the boat: "Where are you taking me?!?" Show Sansa indeed seems to be a lot quicker and more defiant than Book Sansa. I think the only time Book Sansa got 'snippy' with Baelish was when she was building the snow castle ("She wondered where this courage had come from, to speak to him so frankly. From Winterfell, she thought. I am stronger within the walls of Winterfell.") In the Show, she's snippy right off the bat. A VERY WELCOME change and one I personally appreciated, especially after having to endure a week of, "Sansa's so stupid, why does she trust Littlefinger?" comments from the Unsullied after she escaped KL.

In general, I find ALL of these little 'changes' intriguing. Everything from her immediate confrontational interactions with LF, to her quick defense of Tyrion....hell, to the fact that she's still wearing her wedding ring, fascinates the hell out of me. Since we already know that D&D knows how her story ends, I no longer view her character's development in terms of Book Sansa, but rather, in terms of Endgame Sansa (which is probably why they threw in the line about her not being a killer...yet). I truly believe they're writing her character as Endgame Sansa NOW...so we should see her doing/saying/behaving in ways that go beyond ASOS and even AFFC Sansa.

Now that you mention it, though, I wonder how the show will deal with Marillion. They could just cast another character who could do everything Marillion did but who would have another name, I guess. They need someone, maybe not to attempt to rape Sansa, but to play the part of Lysa's accomplice and LF's patsy.

I agree with everyone who said that splitting the snow scene and the Moon Door sequence would be a terrible decision.

I've been wondering about the Marillion situation for a while now. I think that if they include him, he'll be played by another actor (seeing as how the original Marillion got his tongue cut out in season 1). And if they DON'T include him....I'm at a loss as to who they intend to blame Lysa's murder on.

[Widows_Blood]

Ironically, they would be better off keeping her a redhead because changing her hair color to brown will make her look more like show Catelyn.

[Dreams and Prophecies]

Sansa is careful when masquerading as Alayne not to dress above her station, though.

From what I remember of Season 1, the Eyrie ladies wore those weird dresses with the draping puffy "sleeves." I really hope Sansa doesn't wear a similar style, as those dresses struck me as really ugly.

In Envie's defence, we don't know how Alayne Stone will be dealt with in the show, and as even 4x04 proved with Bran, the writers are not afraid of huge deviations in the interest of spicing things up. I personally don't see how they could pull off Sansa in the Vale interacting with others without a fake identity, but I'm not writing the show, so who knows what they'll do?

i don't know, she seems to be wearing that puffy sleeved dress in the promotional posters.

http://fansided.com/2014/02/25/game-thrones-season-4-stark-family-featured-latest-character-posters/#!GISna

[Chebyshov]

That wouldn't work either. Changing her hair after she's already moved to the Eyrie would be far more suspicious than being a redhead.

Isn't that what happens in the books though? She has red hair when she first meets Lysa. They could just dye her hair next season in preparation of Petyr meeting the Vale lords.

[solidviper]

In another thread, I referenced that this episode showed Sansa literally going from pawn to player. My Unsullied mother caught that line and fully believes Sansa will be the one to take LF down, and I agree.

Sansa is often compared to Catelyn, by other characters, and most of all by LF, and it's certain that his obsession with her stems from his obsession with Cat. Petyr relied on the Tully family throughout his youth, and trusted Catelyn. When his life was in danger (from a Stark, no less) Catelyn was the one who called to the foe to spare his life. Interestingly, although Sansa is Catelyn's doppleganger in appearance, I think she is the child most like her father. LF trusts Sansa because she seems meek, and because of the fact that since he equates Sansa with Cat in his mind, he believes he can trust her to be "on his side." Ultimately this will result in his biggest failure.. Sansa will take his life instead of sparing it.

I like that in a way, Sansa is doing what her parents failed to do (Catelyn spared LF, Ned trusted him). For me, I see her being the child who rights the wrongs of these ill decisions. Sansa does have the agency to avenge LF for the wrongs he has done the Starks and the Tullys. She just knows patience is a friend.

I love this entire post and agree 100% I also think Sansa is a lot like Ned

[FalseKnight]

IDK what is in their heads, but dropping the disguise is not a mild change of the plot, it is actually stupid writing. If she flaunts around Vale as Sansa Stark, people would find that out ASAP and as Colonel Green said, it would result only in Lannister invasion. I simply don't see how believable that change could be made...

The Lannisters are in no position to invade anything right now. They have Tyrion's trial; Tywin's impending death; Jaime and Cersei hate each other; and the Crown is broke. Also, the Eyrie is impregnable. The Vale is the only region that could make war on anyone. They should still disguise Sansa, but it wouldn't be impossible. Also, it would eliminate the Lords Declarant plot.

[Chebyshov]

The Lannisters are in no position to invade anything right now. They have Tyrion's trial; Tywin's impending death; Jaime and Cersei hate each other; and the Crown is broke. Also, the Eyrie is impregnable. The Vale is the only region that could make war on anyone. They should still disguise Sansa, but it wouldn't be impossible. Also, it would eliminate the Lords Declarant plot.

So if they cut that plot, what would Sansa do next season? Would we be getting her TWOW material? I feel like her story is pretty thin as it is.

[Mladen]

The Lannisters are in no position to invade anything right now. They have Tyrion's trial; Tywin's impending death; Jaime and Cersei hate each other; and the Crown is broke. Also, the Eyrie is impregnable. The Vale is the only region that could make war on anyone. They should still disguise Sansa, but it wouldn't be impossible. Also, it would eliminate the Lords Declarant plot.

Yeah, I am well aware of all of that. But logic behind the reasoning of not hiding Sansa is simply flawed. Here we have someone who has hid all his moves in the Game and suddenly he is opening his cards prematurely. It simply makes little sense in terms of LF and Sansa. As for Lords Declarant, it also will affect in unknown way... As have been said repeatedly, Alayne Stone makes sense. Not disguising Sansa takes a whole bunch of narrative... And we are talking about significant, long-term consequences of abandoning Alayne.

[Colonel Green]

Isn't that what happens in the books though? She has red hair when she first meets Lysa.

At the Fingers, not at the Eyrie. There'd be no way she could change her hair after coming to the Eyrie, where there's tons of people, and we already know the Vale lords are appearing this season.

The Lannisters are in no position to invade anything right now.

They're the undisputed sovereigns at the moment, with the Tyrells behind them. If Sansa's location came out, they would have to demand her return, and if refused (which they would be) they would invade. You think Cersei would hold off on that?

In general, I find ALL of these little 'changes' intriguing. Everything from her immediate confrontational interactions with LF, to her quick defense of Tyrion....hell, to the fact that she's still wearing her wedding ring, fascinates the hell out of me. Since we already know that D&D knows how her story ends, I no longer view her character's development in terms of Book Sansa, but rather, in terms of Endgame Sansa (which is probably why they threw in the line about her not being a killer...yet). I truly believe they're writing her character as Endgame Sansa NOW...so we should see her doing/saying/behaving in ways that go beyond ASOS and even AFFC Sansa.

The writers have known the characters' final plot resolutions from the beginning (even if they only recently got more details), so I really don't see why you would suddenly see this as them writing "Endgame Sansa" (or "Endgame Anybody"). As for her being more distant from Baelish, given that the TV Baelish never acts like a creepy sociopath nonstop (whereas the book version is meant to be charming, if also a bit unsettling to her), the difference in attitudes is kind of necessary.

I'd actually say this is more of a problem, since the plot requires Sansa to be taken in by this guy to a considerable extent going forward.

[FalseKnight]

Yeah, I am well aware of all of that. But logic behind the reasoning of not hiding Sansa is simply flawed. Here we have someone who has hid all his moves in the Game and suddenly he is opening his cards prematurely. It simply makes little sense in terms of LF and Sansa. As for Lords Declarant, it also will affect in unknown way... As have been said repeatedly, Alayne Stone makes sense. Not disguising Sansa takes a whole bunch of narrative... And we are talking about significant, long-term consequences of abandoning Alayne.

Not really, when the lords interrogate Littlefinger, he'd introduce her as Sansa and ask them to pledge their swords to retake Winterfell. Which ever way GRRM intends to go with the wedding plot, the lords do that. It's not a significant alteration. They prune the plot a bit. I'd rather they do it other way.

[Envie]

At the Fingers, not at the Eyrie. There'd be no way she could change her hair after coming to the Eyrie, where there's tons of people, and we already know the Vale lords are appearing this season.

I actually forgot about this sequence of events from the book - thanks for the reminder. So in theory, the scenes we see of Sansa hugging Lysa (still in noble garb and red hair) could be played out at the Fingers when Lysa is there to meet them... if in fact they've filmed that scene prior to going to the Eyrie. The problem with that idea is we've only seen upcoming snippets from the Eyrie and she's definitely still in red hair and her King's Landing clothing there - that's how this whole debate started. The clues seem to indicate she's not going to be disguised as Alayne at all unless it's in a later episode and that just doesn't make any sense either.

I still say they may drop the disguise in favor of just keeping her carefully hidden and out of public view during the wedding. Once things progress forward after the wedding (and the future events upcoming for the Lannisters / KL) it won't really matter anymore if she's disguised or not. No one's going to invade the Vale, we already know this.

[Colonel Green]

I actually forgot about this sequence of events from the book - thanks for the reminder. So in theory, the scenes we see of Sansa hugging Lysa (still in noble garb and red hair) could be played out at the Fingers when Lysa is there to meet them...

The first shot of Lysa in the promo is her looking down from her throne (you can see from the angle), so she's not meeting them at the Fingers.

The clues seem to indicate she's not going to be disguised as Alayne at all unless it's in a later episode and that just doesn't make any sense either.

She can be "Alayne" without dyeing her hair.

I still say they may drop the disguise in favor of just keeping her carefully hidden and out of public view during the wedding. Once things progress forward after the wedding (and the future events upcoming for the Lannisters / KL) it won't really matter anymore if she's disguised or not. No one's going to invade the Vale, we already know this.

No, that wouldn't work in the slightest. Cersei would invade the Vale in a second if Sansa was there. And Sansa being undisguised would render her entire plot going forward unworkable, seeing as it revolves around her being disguised. None of the story with the Lords Declarant would work, nor would the scenario that is apparently being set up at the Gates of the Moon for The Winds of Winter.

[Envie]

The first shot of Lysa in the promo is her looking down from her throne (you can see from the angle), so she's not meeting them at the Fingers.

She can be "Alayne" without dyeing her hair.

No, that wouldn't work in the slightest. Cersei would invade the Vale in a second if Sansa was there. And Sansa being undisguised would render her entire plot going forward unworkable, seeing as it revolves around her being disguised. None of the story with the Lords Declarant would work, nor would the scenario that is apparently being set up at the Gates of the Moon for The Winds of Winter.

While I agree with you it's going to significantly change the storyline for Sansa if they drop the Alayne disguise, I disagree that it would render the plot completely unworkable. D&D have already proven in seasons past they are willing to change a character's story entirely different from the books and still make it come out essentially the same.

You're operating on the assumption of what "could" happen if Sansa's identity were discovered by the Lannisters. But we already know Cersei's about to lose almost all of her power soon (and in a BIG way) so speculating about a future invasion of the Vale is pointless to those of us who already know the books. Cersei's the only one crazy enough to demand an attack on the Eyrie (which is supposedly impregnable to siege anyways) and she's not going to have that power to demand soon. The only other person in power who could demand it will soon be dead.

SO ... with that future knowledge (and D&D likely had this already figured out) they could justify dropping Sansa's disguise and fast forwarding her plot to the point it won't matter anymore if anyone knows she's there or not.

The lords of the Vale may not like or trust Littlefinger (with good reason) but they certainly aren't going to rise up against him because of Sansa once the Lannisters are no longer in power anyways.

[Colonel Green]

While I agree with you it's going to significantly change the storyline for Sansa if they drop the Alayne disguise, I disagree that it would render the plot completely unworkable. D&D have already proven in seasons past they are willing to change a character's story entirely different from the books and still make it come out essentially the same.

Yeah, and there's no conceivable version of this story that comes out "essentially the same" with Sansa not disguised. None of the Lords Declarant stuff from Book 4 would happen, nor attempt to arrange a betrothal with Harry the Heir under that guise, or the various factions that are poised around her at the end of AFFC trying to uncover her identity. Abandoning the disguise would also make Littlefinger look like a moron (and Brienne, and Jaime, and Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood). The knowledge that Sansa is alive and in the Vale would also have a major impact on the Northern plot.

You're operating on the assumption of what "could" happen if Sansa's identity were discovered by the Lannisters. But we already know Cersei's about to lose almost all of her power soon (and in a BIG way) so speculating about a future invasion of the Vale is pointless to those of us who already know the books. Cersei's the only one crazy enough to demand an attack on the Eyrie (which is supposedly impregnable to siege anyways) and she's not going to have that power to demand soon.

No, Cersei will be in power for most of the season 5, and (depending on the situation based on some lines in the "Mercy" chapter) may gain power again afterward.

The lords of the Vale may not like or trust Littlefinger (with good reason) but they certainly aren't going to rise up against him because of Sansa once the Lannisters are no longer in power anyways.

The knowledge that Baelish has Sansa would completely alter their interactions with Littlefinger, seeing as they're all Stark fans.

[Chebyshov]

Yeah, and there's no conceivable version of this story that comes out "essentially the same" with Sansa not disguised. None of the Lords Declarant stuff from Book 4 would happen, nor attempt to arrange a betrothal with Harry the Heir under that guise, or the various factions that are poised around her at the end of AFFC trying to uncover her identity. Abandoning the disguise would also make Littlefinger look like a moron (and Brienne, and Jaime, and Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood). The knowledge that Sansa is alive and in the Vale would also have a major impact on the Northern plot.

Good points. Leaning towards her being Alayne in the Eyrie, but without hair dye. Odd change, but because the show hasn't really spent too much time covering the coloring of the major houses, probably one that won't impact the show too much. Pretty sure none of the Show!Tullys are gingers.

Also this just looks odd: http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/32300000/Alayne-Stone-women-of-westeros-32315505-500-281.png

[Envie]

Yeah, and there's no conceivable version of this story that comes out "essentially the same" with Sansa not disguised. None of the Lords Declarant stuff from Book 4 would happen, nor attempt to arrange a betrothal with Harry the Heir under that guise, or the various factions that are poised around her at the end of AFFC trying to uncover her identity. Abandoning the disguise would also make Littlefinger look like a moron (and Brienne, and Jaime, and Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood). The knowledge that Sansa is alive and in the Vale would also have a major impact on the Northern plot.

No, Cersei will be in power for most of the season 5, and (depending on the situation based on some lines in the "Mercy" chapter) may gain power again afterward.

The knowledge that Baelish has Sansa would completely alter their interactions with Littlefinger, seeing as they're all Stark fans.

All reasonable arguments. IF in fact they are going to leave the Vale's politics with the Lords in the show at all. They've shown nothing at all of the Dorne noble house storyline other than the bare necessity to introduce Oberyn. That story arch was actually quite large and good (especially once Myrcella was sent down there) but look where that went in the show - absolutely nowhere.

Why do you feel it's very important for them to keep the Vale's political story in the show for the future?

The problem is, we're starting to move into the gray area going forward. We the readers aren't sure what's important for the future outcome of the overall story. We assume D&D are in the know on this and have chosen the stories they want to include and those they're dropping (out of necessity for the length of the episodes / seasons). Perhaps, like Dorne, the Vale does not end up playing a huge role in the final story line of the books and most of it can be skipped?

[Envie]

Good points. Leaning towards her being Alayne in the Eyrie, but without hair dye. Odd change, but because the show hasn't really spent too much time covering the coloring of the major houses, probably one that won't impact the show too much. Pretty sure none of the Show!Tullys are gingers.

Also this just looks odd: http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/32300000/Alayne-Stone-women-of-westeros-32315505-500-281.png

Why do you say that? Catelyn and Lysa are both red-heads in the show.

Sansa staying a red head isn't much of a diguise (not a very believable one anyways). I never really understood it in the books how everyone just fell for it that Littlefinger shows up with this "bastard daughter" who just happens to be the same age, coloring, height as Sansa Stark and looks strikingly like a Tully (even with dyed hair). Whatever George. ;)

[Chebyshov]

Why do you say that? Catelyn and Lysa are both red-heads in the show.

Sansa staying a red head isn't much of a diguise (not a very believable one anyways). I never really understood it in the books how everyone just fell for it that Littlefinger shows up with this "bastard daughter" who just happens to be the same age, coloring, height as Sansa Stark and looks strikingly like a Tully (even with dyed hair). Whatever George. ;)

I'm convinced the Vale lords didn't fall for it. I mean House Royce's words are "We Remember" ffs!

And I'd say that Show!Lysa and Show!Cat have reddish hair but far darker than Sansa's. Granted, I'm speaking as a red-head myself, so I could just defensive of my ilk.

Edit:

Actually, I think that picture of Lysa had its color altered. Here's a screencap: http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120706235307/hieloyfuego/images/c/c1/Lysa_Tully.JPG