[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa VIII: Learning the Game

[Envie]

I'm convinced the Vale lords didn't fall for it. I mean House Royce's words are "We Remember" ffs!

And I'd say that Show!Lysa and Show!Cat have reddish hair but far darker than Sansa's. Granted, I'm speaking as a red-head myself, so I could just defensive of my ilk.

Edit:

Actually, I think that picture of Lysa had its color altered. Here's a screencap: http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120706235307/hieloyfuego/images/c/c1/Lysa_Tully.JPG

Ok, granted, both Catelyn and Lysa seemed to have darker auburn red hair but it's still definitely there and for that matter wasn't Robb's hair a bit auburn too? They're clearly not the dark brunette / black hair of the Starks - maybe the colorings were too vague in the show for many viewers but I noticed!

Still... it's not very believable to have this *not* disguised but somehow disguised Sansa we see in the previews. Color me confused (har har) :dunno:

Edit: Also, in response to your comment that you're not convinced the Vale Lords didn't fall for the disguise in the books, what made you think that? I honestly didn't really give it much thought when I read it and don't remember any clues or hints so I probably missed that whole thing if there was some suspicion of Sansa's true identity. I would love to know what I missed!

[ground_control]

I know Sophie Turner has got a bit taller, but I wouldn't have called her a shrimp in season 1. Also, while I have seen some theories, I'm not sure she'll end up being a septa.

Oops, sorry, I though this was the Sansa: From Prawn To Prayer thread.

[Dreams and Prophecies]

Ok, granted, both Catelyn and Lysa seemed to have darker auburn red hair but it's still definitely there and for that matter wasn't Robb's hair a bit auburn too? They're clearly not the dark brunette / black hair of the Starks - maybe the colorings were too vague in the show for many viewers but I noticed!

Still... it's not very believable to have this *not* disguised but somehow disguised Sansa we see in the previews. Color me confused (har har) :dunno:

Edit: Also, in response to your comment that you're not convinced the Vale Lords didn't fall for the disguise in the books, what made you think that? I honestly didn't really give it much thought when I read it and don't remember any clues or hints so I probably missed that whole thing if there was some suspicion of Sansa's true identity. I would love to know what I missed!

"Bronze Yohn had slate-grey eyes, half-hidden beneath the bushiest eyebrows she had ever seen. They crinkled when he looked down at her. "Do I know you, girl?"

"There is no need. It is plain that he has won." Bronze Yohn's grey eyes considered Petyr Baelish. "I like it not, but it would seem you have your year. Best use it well, my lord. Not all of us are fooled." He opened the door so forcefully that he all but wrenched it off its hinges.

House Royce's words: We Remember.

"Is that what passes for courtesy at Heart's Home?" Anya Waynwood's hair was greying and she had crow's-feet around her eyes and loose skin beneath her chin, but there was no mistaking the air of nobility about her. "The girl is young and gently bred, and has suffered enough horrors. Mind your tongue, ser."

[Chebyshov]

"Bronze Yohn had slate-grey eyes, half-hidden beneath the bushiest eyebrows she had ever seen. They crinkled when he looked down at her. "Do I know you, girl?"

"There is no need. It is plain that he has won." Bronze Yohn's grey eyes considered Petyr Baelish. "I like it not, but it would seem you have your year. Best use it well, my lord. Not all of us are fooled." He opened the door so forcefully that he all but wrenched it off its hinges.

House Royce's words: We Remember.

"Is that what passes for courtesy at Heart's Home?" Anya Waynwood's hair was greying and she had crow's-feet around her eyes and loose skin beneath her chin, but there was no mistaking the air of nobility about her. "The girl is young and gently bred, and has suffered enough horrors. Mind your tongue, ser."

This exactly. Also the fact that Sansa slips up and blurts out "Jon Snow" in front of Myranda.

Edit:

Especially given Petyr's warning

“Soon or late you must meet Myranda Royce,” Petyr had warned her. “When you do, be careful. She likes to play the merry fool, but underneath she’s shrewder than her father. Guard your tongue around her.”

[Envie]

"Bronze Yohn had slate-grey eyes, half-hidden beneath the bushiest eyebrows she had ever seen. They crinkled when he looked down at her. "Do I know you, girl?"

"There is no need. It is plain that he has won." Bronze Yohn's grey eyes considered Petyr Baelish. "I like it not, but it would seem you have your year. Best use it well, my lord. Not all of us are fooled." He opened the door so forcefully that he all but wrenched it off its hinges.

House Royce's words: We Remember.

"Is that what passes for courtesy at Heart's Home?" Anya Waynwood's hair was greying and she had crow's-feet around her eyes and loose skin beneath her chin, but there was no mistaking the air of nobility about her. "The girl is young and gently bred, and has suffered enough horrors. Mind your tongue, ser."

Awesome! Thanks!

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

The writers have known the characters' final plot resolutions from the beginning (even if they only recently got more details), so I really don't see why you would suddenly see this as them writing "Endgame Sansa" (or "Endgame Anybody"). As for her being more distant from Baelish, given that the TV Baelish never acts like a creepy sociopath nonstop (whereas the book version is meant to be charming, if also a bit unsettling to her), the difference in attitudes is kind of necessary.

I'd actually say this is more of a problem, since the plot requires Sansa to be taken in by this guy to a considerable extent going forward.

I thought the producers recently sat down with GRRM and went into depth about what happens with each character(?) Regardless, the reason I think they would be wring Endgame Sansa now, as opposed to before, is because they had a lot more material to work with before. They still had 3 books--and 3 chapters of AFFC--to go through. They don't have that anymore. They're vastly approaching the end of her chapters in the books, so if they're going to take her somewhere, they'd best start setting her up for it now (which, I think, is exactly what they're doing).

[Colonel Green]

All reasonable arguments. IF in fact they are going to leave the Vale's politics with the Lords in the show at all.

...

Why do you feel it's very important for them to keep the Vale's political story in the show for the future?

Because the characters from that story are showing up this season. We're meeting Yohn Royce, Anya Waynwood, and a "Vance Corbray" (seemingly a renamed Lyn). There'd be no reason to have them in the show, otherwise, and all indications from the published material are that the Vale is going to be important.

I thought the producers recently sat down with GRRM and went into depth about what happens with each character(?)

They went back for more details, but they'd already been given the broad strokes of the ending at the beginning, which one imagines would have to cover the basic end-points for important characters.

[Envie]

Because the characters from that story are showing up this season. We're meeting Yohn Royce, Anya Waynwood, and a "Vance Corbray" (seemingly a renamed Lyn). There'd be no reason to have them in the show, otherwise, and all indications from the published material are that the Vale is going to be important.

They went back for more details, but they'd already been given the broad strokes of the ending at the beginning, which one imagines would have to cover the basic end-points for important characters.

Well it's definitely interesting that those characters are being introduced and the story was determined to be important enough to cast them. I only say this because some characters I felt were really important for the story were left out entirely in other story arcs. Not saying the Vale / Sansa / Littlefinger story isn't - just wondering how it's more important than others.

[Mladen]

Well it's definitely interesting that those characters are being introduced and the story was determined to be important enough to cast them. I only say this because some characters I felt were really important for the story were left out entirely in other story arcs. Not saying the Vale / Sansa / Littlefinger story isn't - just wondering how it's more important than others.

Because, even in the books, they are more crucial to the certain plot, then the other lords. How does Dorne lords impact on Doran's plotting and Arianne's conspiracy? Very little. Westerland lords on Tywin and his family? None. Riverlords? Except of Freys, none is very crucial. We have been introduced to Northern lords who impact the plots - Reed children, Boltons, Karstark, Umber. The Vale lords impact a lot the storyline in the Vale, hence the casting of them. Between their dislike of LF, possible conspiracy and Sansa's hidden identity, they are more prominent than Dorne, Westerlands' or Stormlands' lords, for example.

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

Getting back to something I meant to say earlier...I sincerely hope Snow Castle/Only Cat is in Episode 7 because I don't want that moment competing with any other epic moment. Let Sansa be the "watercooler topic" on the following Monday, instead of a footnote to Tyrion killing Tywin/Shae...the Children of the Forest...Lady Stoneheart...Arya going to Braavos, etc, etc. I just want the woman--and her storyline--to have one shining moment all on her own instead of being a side note to whatever else is going on.

[Envie]

Because, even in the books, they are more crucial to the certain plot, then the other lords. How does Dorne lords impact on Doran's plotting and Arianne's conspiracy? Very little. Westerland lords on Tywin and his family? None. Riverlords? Except of Freys, none is very crucial. We have been introduced to Northern lords who impact the plots - Reed children, Boltons, Karstark, Umber. The Vale lords impact a lot the storyline in the Vale, hence the casting of them. Between their dislike of LF, possible conspiracy and Sansa's hidden identity, they are more prominent than Dorne, Westerlands' or Stormlands' lords, for example.

All true and all too vague from my recollection of what takes place after Lysa is no longer in the picture. I think a re-read is in order for me! :D

[Mladen]

Getting back to something I meant to say earlier...I sincerely hope Snow Castle/Only Cat is in Episode 7 because I don't want that moment competing with any other epic moment. Let Sansa be the "watercooler topic" on the following Monday, instead of a footnote to Tyrion killing Tywin/Shae...the Children of the Forest...Lady Stoneheart...Arya going to Braavos, etc, etc. I just want the woman--and her storyline--to have one shining moment all on her own instead of being a side note to whatever else is going on.

Awww, so sweet... But regardless who tops the episode, we will always be here on Mondays to discuss Sansa. And given that she has been doing rather great job this season, I am pleased every Monday morning (in my part of the world, when the show airs in US, it's dawn) to open this thread. So, whenever it happens, we will be here celebrating that moment...

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

Awww, so sweet... But regardless who tops the episode, we will always be here on Mondays to discuss Sansa. And given that she has been doing rather great job this season, I am pleased every Monday morning (in my part of the world, when the show airs in US, it's dawn) to open this thread. So, whenever it happens, we will be here celebrating that moment...

:cheers: :grouphug:

[Annara Snow]

I don't understand how "Sansa isn't dying her hair" has lead to the conclusion "Sansa will not be hiding her identity". The latter makes no sense at all and would torpedo every storyline she has from now on for at least a season and a half if not more.

The former really isn't a big deal that some book fans make it out to be. In the book, it wasn't some incredible disguise; I just thought that the reasoning was "Petyr Baelish's dark haired bastard daughter appears at the same time that Sansa goes missing" would be a tiny bit less suspicious than "Petyr Baelish's auburn haired bastard daughter appears at the same time Sansa goes missing." However, the Unsullied won't be wondering why she isn't dying her hair - I don't think it's been established how good, if any, hair dye exists in-universe, and there can be other reasons not to do it in-universe; dark hair may not look convincingly natural on her* (blonde makes little sense since it would make her look even less like her "father"), she may run out of hair dye or someone may notice the roots showing - and a bastard daughter with dyed hair would look more suspicious than ginger bastard daughter. (And if it's supposed to be a Tully trait, would anyone be surprised that LF went for a woman with similar hair colour to Cat?)

Tyrion never tried to dye his hair or otherwise change his appearance to pass as Yollo/Hugor, and he should be far more recognizable than Sansa, especially in the books. I'm sure that there are many more "maids of three and ten (or around that age), auburn hair, blue eyes, beautiful" than there are "incredibly ugly dwarfs with eyes of different hair colors and half a nose missing".

* Which may be one of the reasons they're dropping it in the show; Sophie is a natural blonde, so dark hair may not look convincing on her (which may also be why her hair is lighter than Michelle's/Catelyn's in the first place). In addition to that, the show is not known for overestimating its audience and their ability to keep track of characters (Osha/Asha/Yara, Robert/Robin), and maybe they're right, if it's actually true that there are quite a few casual viewers who know Sansa as "ginger Stark". :lol:

True, Chebyshov, but "He did nothing" came only well after LF explained that Tyrion in fact did nothing. It was hardly something that she "just knew."

I wouldn't think that much of it were it not for this quote from a Spanish language magazine interview with Sophie Turner (the April issue, I think), where Sophie Turner says the following when asked about the influence of Tyrion and Sansa's relationship on Sansa (translated from Spanish):

"[Cutting out some stuff about Joffrey] Tyrion is her only and true friend, he's the only one who's been honest with her. Well, she has Shae but Shae's not completely sincere with Sansa. She could trust Tyrion completely, if she wished to. It's one of the most important relationships in Game of Thrones, especially for my character."

I didn't think that much of it at the time (blah blah blah whitewashing), but after 4x04 and Alex Graves' recent revelation that he is spoiled for post-ADWD books and spoils the actors so that they know how to act in certain scenes, I'm starting to wonder about the possibilities for Sansa and Tyrion becoming (platonic, to be clear) allies in the future, post-ADWD. The HBO viewers' guide talking all about Tyrion treating Sansa with the utmost respect could be whitewashing, or it could be setting something up down the line for a reasonably amicable alliance.

There are three possibilities for that quote:

1) It's been wrongly translated,

2) Sophie was misquoted in the article,

3) Sophie didn't express herself well.

I can see her saying that it's one of the most important relationships for Sansa, but "one of the most important relationships in GoT" as a whole? That makes no sense from anything seen in the books or in the show - especially considering the fact that it also goes against everything she's said in every other interview; just going by her interviews, she's singled out Margaery, not Tyrion, as her biggest influence in KL in becoming a 'player' (Tyrion got mentioned, but only as one of the people in KL she observed and 'soaked' things from, together with Cersei and Margaery), and she's also categorically ruled out the possibility of Sansa developing any genuine romantic interest in Tyrion in every interview (and made a face to express how she or Sansa feels about the marriage in general), so how exactly would Tyrion become the most important relationship in her story, trumping her parents, her siblings, anyone she has or will have romantic interest in, Littlefinger, Joffrey, Cersei, Sweetrobin, anyone else she will get to interact while she's in Vale in near future... or how is Sansa going to become the most important, or one of the most important relationships in Tyrion's story, trumping Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Tysha, Shae, anyone he does or will interact in Essos...? Especially since they aren't even likely to meet again until late in Winds of Winter. Even in the unlikely outcome that they end up ruling Westeros together, that still wouldn't be the case.

Regarding the differences between Sansa's behavior to LF/Tyrion, I think it's most likely the result of the following:

1) the show being generally less subtle than the books and making everything more obvious (unless they're completely ignoring it) because of the lack of internal monologue - so, instead of hinting that Sansa does not trust LF and does not hate Tyrion, they do their best to hammer it home,

2) LF being a lot more obviously creepy and villainous in the show (see point 1),

3) Tyrion being portrayed as a much nicer guy and having treated Sansa better than he did in the book,

4) the show's attempts to minimize every conflict between the "good guys" (as Colonel Green pointed out) - therefore, in order to make sure the audience likes Sansa (the logic goes) it has to be spelled out that she trusts the show's Good Guy and distrusts the show's Bad Guy.

There is nothing in the books that prevents Sansa and Tyrion from forming an amicable alliance down the line, whenever they see each other again without the context of Sansa being in Lannister hands and forced into marriage with him - they don't hate each other and even their negative thoughts about each other are very mild. Therefore, changes really aren't necessary to make that work (especially if we're assuming that the show is being faithful to George's synopsis he gave D&D; if George thinks that the characters could conceivably form amicable relations the way they've been so far, I don't see why they would have to be changed for the show to make the exact same thing possible).

[Annara Snow]

Ok, granted, both Catelyn and Lysa seemed to have darker auburn red hair but it's still definitely there and for that matter wasn't Robb's hair a bit auburn too? They're clearly not the dark brunette / black hair of the Starks - maybe the colorings were too vague in the show for many viewers but I noticed!

Still... it's not very believable to have this *not* disguised but somehow disguised Sansa we see in the previews. Color me confused (har har) :dunno:

Edit: Also, in response to your comment that you're not convinced the Vale Lords didn't fall for the disguise in the books, what made you think that? I honestly didn't really give it much thought when I read it and don't remember any clues or hints so I probably missed that whole thing if there was some suspicion of Sansa's true identity. I would love to know what I missed!

"Bronze Yohn had slate-grey eyes, half-hidden beneath the bushiest eyebrows she had ever seen. They crinkled when he looked down at her. "Do I know you, girl?"

"There is no need. It is plain that he has won." Bronze Yohn's grey eyes considered Petyr Baelish. "I like it not, but it would seem you have your year. Best use it well, my lord. Not all of us are fooled." He opened the door so forcefully that he all but wrenched it off its hinges.

House Royce's words: We Remember.

"Is that what passes for courtesy at Heart's Home?" Anya Waynwood's hair was greying and she had crow's-feet around her eyes and loose skin beneath her chin, but there was no mistaking the air of nobility about her. "The girl is young and gently bred, and has suffered enough horrors. Mind your tongue, ser."

The way Myranda mentioned the new LC of the NW in front of Sansa was suspicious, as was her question about the size of LF's "finger". The latter would be an odd thing to ask someone's daughter. I got to the impression that she was trying to see her reactions and check if she really is LF's daughter as she claims to be.

[CandleWisps]

Agreed. Sansa has what? 3 chapters in AFFC? Ayra's in a similar predicament, which is why they're dragging out her story. "Only Cat" needs to be her episode 10 conclusion. As it is, we're likely to see TWOW material for Sansa's arc next year.

:agree: This is what seems to be happening with a lot of other characters arcs as well, like Brienne/LS, Bran and Bloodraven, etc. At this point my hope that at least the WoW will be released before us book readers become Unsullied is fairly nonexistent

[Colonel Green]

"Is that what passes for courtesy at Heart's Home?" Anya Waynwood's hair was greying and she had crow's-feet around her eyes and loose skin beneath her chin, but there was no mistaking the air of nobility about her. "The girl is young and gently bred, and has suffered enough horrors. Mind your tongue, ser."

While the other stuff is certainly evidence, I think people read way too much into this. Firstly, if Waynwood knew who she was, she wouldn't be making a statement like that that supposedly gives it away. The "horrors" refer to the murder of Lysa.

[Mladen]

I don't understand how "Sansa isn't dying her hair" has lead to the conclusion "Sansa will not be hiding her identity". The latter makes no sense at all and would torpedo every storyline she has from now on for at least a season and a half if not more.

Hmmm, IDK, perhaps you are right. I usually believed that when we come to this moment, Turner would stop dying her hair and Alayne would be blonde. But the problem is, as some mentioned, with the ring. Of course, it is premature to conclude anything, but I think it is safe to say that Sansa is not changing her hair color, due to that scene in the courtyard when it's snowing.

:agree: This is what seems to be happening with a lot of other characters arcs as well, like Brienne/LS, Bran and Bloodraven, etc. At this point my hope that at least the WoW will be released before us book readers become Unsullied is fairly nonexistent

True... We are seeing fast decimating of book material. Producers are relentless and apparently they don't want to destroy the show by slowing it too much like Martin slowed the plot in the books with AFFC and ADWD. I imagine we might see Season 5 being in some portion, unknown to us, and for season 6 it is certain, that if Martin doesn't publish TWOW by then, we will be Unsullied too. I don't see how much expansions can be made with half of the stories...

[Annara Snow]

Hmmm, IDK, perhaps you are right. I usually believed that when we come to this moment, Turner would stop dying her hair and Alayne would be blonde. But the problem is, as some mentioned, with the ring. Of course, it is premature to conclude anything, but I think it is safe to say that Sansa is not changing her hair color, due to that scene in the courtyard when it's snowing.

I'm not sure what the problem with the ring is? Taking it off should be pretty easy. :lol: I don't know why they thought Sansa should be wearing it while talking to Lysa, but she's definitely going to be taking it off soon - it's not like she's going to go around meeting people in the Vale with a ring and pretending to be, what, a 15-year old widow LF picked up somewhere? Sansa not managing to take it off yet is dumb, but the latter would just be completely absurd.

[Mladen]

I'm not sure what the problem with the ring is? Taking it off should be pretty easy. :lol: I don't know why they thought Sansa should be wearing it while talking to Lysa, but she's definitely going to be taking it off soon - it's not like she's going to go around meeting people in the Vale with a ring and pretending to be, what, a 15-year old widow LF picked up somewhere? Sansa not managing to take it off yet is dumb, but the latter would just be completely absurd.

Which is basically my point. It would be absurd not to go through with transformation to Alayne. It is just that it's a but messed up. I thought we might see the birth of Alayne this episode, but we might see it in the next, before arrival to Eyrie. Or sometime in Eyrie.