[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa VIII: Learning the Game

[salmonsnake]

Because GRRM said so:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Quite_a_Few_Questions

But didn't he also say that the death of Lady has left Sansa, in a way, fundamentally astray. Which of course doesn't mean it'll never happen for Sansa as well, simply thwarts the development of the trait.

[Envie]

But didn't he also say that the death of Lady has left Sansa, in a way, fundamentally astray. Which of course doesn't mean it'll never happen for Sansa as well, simply thwarts the development of the trait.

Yeah I think it's a pretty big stretch of imagination to believe Sansa's going to start warging. Just because she's 'force sensitive' so to speak doesn't mean she's got ESP in regards to Littlefinger or anyone else. The transformation we're seeing her go through is from 'street smarts' she's learned by being betrayed and seeing her family destroyed. She's a survivor and learning to play the game to survive, and that's far more useful than magic in Sansa's world right now.

I think they're playing it well in the show. She went from being the starry-eyed innocent in the first season who wants to marry a prince and have blonde babies, to a young woman who by now has seen horrific things happen and learned how other females in her world (Cersei, Olenna, Margaery, Shae) handle men and keep on their toes to stay ahead of the curve. She's learning. It's not magic, it's common sense and learned cleverness.

[Chebyshov]

But didn't he also say that the death of Lady has left Sansa, in a way, fundamentally astray. Which of course doesn't mean it'll never happen for Sansa as well, simply thwarts the development of the trait.

Exactly. Though it's been theorized that if she does gain the ability to warg, it will be through birds.

[Mladen]

But didn't he also say that the death of Lady has left Sansa, in a way, fundamentally astray. Which of course doesn't mean it'll never happen for Sansa as well, simply thwarts the development of the trait.

The warg, as we have found in Varamyr's chapter, is born, not created. If all 6 Stark children are wargs, they got it the moment they were born. The direwolves were not sole "activation button", plus we have seen that Sansa's control over Lady has been unnaturally strong.

Yeah I think it's a pretty big stretch of imagination to believe Sansa's going to start warging.

I would disagree... Martin would never include something like that in the plot, unless he plans to use it at some point. It's like giving Daenerys fossilized eggs which never hatch. Sansa is a warg, Martin said so and naturally, people assume that at some point of her life, just like any of her siblings, she would start warging. She is a warg, thus a skinchanger, which means she can warg into any animal.

She's learning. It's not magic, it's common sense and learned cleverness.

Does one exclude the other? Absolutely not. We have rather great example of Bloodraven who used his gift to get advantage in the Game. Arya is on the path of becoming Faceless man, and her warging dreams are there. She is learning and does it mean they are meaningless? Absolutely not. The same goes for all the Stark kids. Politics and magic are not mutually exclusive as they coexist in the world.

[Chebyshov]

Does one exclude the other? Absolutely not. We have rather great example of Bloodraven who used his gift to get advantage in the Game. Arya is on the path of becoming Faceless man, and her warging dreams are there. She is learning and does it mean they are meaningless? Absolutely not. The same goes for all the Stark kids. Politics and magic are not mutually exclusive as they coexist in the world.

:agree:

Jon's the best example of this.

[Envie]

The warg, as we have found in Varamyr's chapter, is born, not created. If all 6 Stark children are wargs, they got it the moment they were born. The direwolves were not sole "activation button", plus we have seen that Sansa's control over Lady has been unnaturally strong.

I would disagree... Martin would never include something like that in the plot, unless he plans to use it at some point. It's like giving Daenerys fossilized eggs which never hatch. Sansa is a warg, Martin said so and naturally, people assume that at some point of her life, just like any of her siblings, she would start warging. She is a warg, thus a skinchanger, which means she can warg into any animal.

Does one exclude the other? Absolutely not. We have rather great example of Bloodraven who used his gift to get advantage in the Game. Arya is on the path of becoming Faceless man, and her warging dreams are there. She is learning and does it mean they are meaningless? Absolutely not. The same goes for all the Stark kids. Politics and magic are not mutually exclusive as they coexist in the world.

Wait, where does he ever state in the books that Sansa's experiencing warging premonitions or abilities? It's quite a bit different for him to mention in an interview that all of the kids have the ability to some degree or another (and then says Sansa's lost her direwolf so she wouldn't be showing any traits) and him actually writing about it in the book. That's not confirmation Sansa's going to warg. It's still a stretch. Wishful thinking maybe. It's not the same as giving Daenarys fossilized eggs, not even close. GRRM is very good at giving lots and lots of false leads and red herrings too. He loves to work everyone up with all these theories.

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying at this point it's improbable Sansa's future holds warging in it. There's no proof whatsoever in the book or the show thus far.

Personally I prefer her growing up to be a very savvy political player based on experience (since she started out the most naive of all the children) rather than more magical stuff.

[ground_control]

The reason is given, and I admit it was my mistake for using the phrase that is intellectual property of someone else without asking. As Florina said, on book subforum, there is a series of threads "From Pawn to Player" dedicated to Sansa. This thread, for clarification, isn't in any way connected with the above-mentioned thread, as this thread is a place for discussion TV/book parallels and deviations in Sansa's storylines.

Ah. I don't recall if I have read those posts specifically, but this wasn't the first time I've heard that phrase (from pawn to player), so I've probably at least seen them.

Anyway, I suppose I should at least say *something* on topic :)

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet (or maybe I missed it), but in the books, doesn't Sansa notice the missing stone before leaving with Ser Dontos? I was a bit disappointed that in the show Littlefinger had to point it out to her.

[Annara Snow]

Wait, where does he ever state in the books that Sansa's experiencing warging premonitions or abilities? It's quite a bit different for him to mention in an interview that all of the kids have the ability to some degree or another (and then says Sansa's lost her direwolf so she wouldn't be showing any traits) and him actually writing about it in the book. That's not confirmation Sansa's going to warg. It's still a stretch. Wishful thinking maybe. It's not the same as giving Daenarys fossilized eggs, not even close. GRRM is very good at giving lots and lots of false leads and red herrings too. He loves to work everyone up with all these theories.

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying at this point it's improbable Sansa's future holds warging in it. There's no proof whatsoever in the book or the show thus far.

Personally I prefer her growing up to be a very savvy political player based on experience (since she started out the most naive of all the children) rather than more magical stuff.

Wait, when did he say that? Link/quote, please.

[Mladen]

Wait, where does he ever state in the books that Sansa's experiencing warging premonitions or abilities?

Sending her a direwolf, unnatural tameness of Lady, old dog at Fingers... All of these are actually pointing that Sansa is indeed a warg. Once again, warg is being born not taught.

mention in an interview that all of the kids have the ability to some degree or another (and then says Sansa's lost her direwolf so she wouldn't be showing any traits)

He didn't say such thing. He used the word "hindered", but he never said she wouldn't be showing any trait.

It's not the same as giving Daenarys fossilized eggs, not even close. GRRM is very good at giving lots and lots of false leads and red herrings too. He loves to work everyone up with all these theories.

Actually it is. It is plot tool aka Chekhov's gun 1.01. The author would never create something unless is a meaningful for the plot. That is how we distinguish good from bad authors. Just as he gave fossilized eggs to Dany so she would hatch them and get dragons, he gave Sansa warging ability that we think will have influence on the plot in some way. It is not wishful thinking, it's understanding how narrative works.

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying at this point it's improbable Sansa's future holds warging in it. There's no proof whatsoever in the book or the show thus far.

The only proof you need is in Varamyr's prologue. Warg is being born, not taught... That is the essential proof.

Ah. I don't recall if I have read those posts specifically, but this wasn't the first time I've heard that phrase (from pawn to player), so I've probably at least seen them.

Anyway, I suppose I should at least say *something* on topic :)

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet (or maybe I missed it), but in the books, doesn't Sansa notice the missing stone before leaving with Ser Dontos? I was a bit disappointed that in the show Littlefinger had to point it out to her.

It was asked through PM. The title is changed, and please, could we end that discussion? Thanks.

As for missing stone, you are right. But, given that everything was messed up with that, I doubt they would have paid much attention to that.

Wait, when did he say that? Link/quote, please.

Martin never said such thing. He said only that Sansa's powers are hindered due to Lady's death.

[salmonsnake]

FWIW, the thing I paraphrased from memory at the top of the page was "it kind of leaves her a little adrift". The second sentence, "Which of course doesn't mean it'll never happen for Sansa as well, simply thwarts the development of the trait" was my spin on it, nothing Martin said. I haven't seen the quote where he says 'it hindered' the power, if there's a link, I'd like to see it too!

[Envie]

Well ok - I hear your desire for Sansa to also become a warg but that's really not what I was interested in the discussion that was being had before that. I was much more interested in her transformation from the naive, somewhat selfish teenage idealistic girl she was in the early books to a true political player in the game of thrones at the tutelage of the adults she's been forced to live and deal with these past years, Littlefinger included.

I'll bow out now as I don't really hold with the opinion of her warging as any importance in her story arc. I'll be pleasantly surprised down the road if George decides to take her that route.

[Mladen]

FWIW, the thing I paraphrased from memory at the top of the page was "it kind of leaves her a little adrift". The second sentence, "Which of course doesn't mean it'll never happen for Sansa as well, simply thwarts the development of the trait" was my spin on it, nothing Martin said. I haven't seen the quote where he says 'it hindered' the power, if there's a link, I'd like to see it too!

Here is the link about all kids being wargs

I will now tell the story of what GRRM said when asked about the Stark children and their ability as wargs. He was asked if the trait of being a warg ran in the Stark family.

"I don't know if I want to get into genetics - this is fantasy, not scifi" He replied. "I don't think this is necessarily a 'Stark' ability, though all the children have it to one extent or another. They also realize it to one extent or another. Arya doesn't realize she has it, she keeps thinking she has these weird dreams, and of course Bran is much further along". Thats all I have in of an exact quote in my notes. I believe he went on to say something about how Bran was seeking the crow and then took the next question.

I have to search for that "hinder part" more extensively.

Well ok - I hear your desire for Sansa to also become a warg but that's really not what I was interested in the discussion that was being had before that. I was much more interested in her transformation from the naive, somewhat selfish teenage idealistic girl she was in the early books to a true political player in the game of thrones at the tutelage of the adults she's been forced to live and deal with these past years, Littlefinger included.

I'll bow out now as I don't really hold with the opinion of her warging as any importance in her story arc. I'll be pleasantly surprised down the road if George decides to take her that route.

It's not my desire, it's about interpreting the given text. Sansa could be a warg, and go through the transformation you talk about. One does not exclude the other. As for surprises, I doubt many people would be surprised to see Sansa warging... I mean, if she is one, how surprised can you be at her warging?

[Envie]

Here is the link about all kids being wargs

I have to search for that "hinder part" more extensively.

It's not my desire, it's about interpreting the given text. Sansa could be a warg, and go through the transformation you talk about. One does not exclude the other. As for surprises, I doubt many people would be surprised to see Sansa warging... I mean, if she is one, how surprised can you be at her warging?

"Interpretation" of the text is still simply your own personal opinion based on clues you choose to single out. They may or may not result in actual in-text or in-show warging for Sansa. No one can predict that as fact. It's not fact she's a confirmed warg, still just speculation.

I choose to reject her being a warg and that is also my own personal opinion. There's nothing really more to debate on that topic as we don't know what will happen.

[Chebyshov]

Well ok - I hear your desire for Sansa to also become a warg but that's really not what I was interested in the discussion that was being had before that. I was much more interested in her transformation from the naive, somewhat selfish teenage idealistic girl she was in the early books to a true political player in the game of thrones at the tutelage of the adults she's been forced to live and deal with these past years, Littlefinger included.

I'll bow out now as I don't really hold with the opinion of her warging as any importance in her story arc. I'll be pleasantly surprised down the road if George decides to take her that route.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Like I said, Jon is the best example of someone maturing as a character into a true political player, while also developing his warg abilities.

Fair enough we'll have to wait and see about Sansa, but as GRRM said (just saw Mladen beat me to the link), "all the [stark] children have it [ability to warg] to one extent or another, so that door is wide open

[Mladen]

"Interpretation" of the text is still simply your own personal opinion based on clues you choose to single out. They may or may not result in actual in-text or in-show warging for Sansa. No one can predict that as fact. It's not fact she's a confirmed warg, still just speculation.

I choose to reject her being a warg and that is also my own personal opinion. There's nothing really more to debate on that topic as we don't know what will happen.

Which part of they were born as wargs you do not understand? She is a warg, because she was born with that ability.

One man in a thousand is born a skinchanger, and one skinchanger in a thousand could be a greenseer.

[Envie]

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Like I said, Jon is the best example of someone maturing as a character into a true political player, while also developing his warg abilities.

Fair enough we'll have to wait and see about Sansa, but as GRRM said (just saw Mladen beat me to the link), "all the [stark] children have it [ability to warg] to one extent or another, so that door is wide open

And as I just said, I'm not denying she could 'possibly' be a warg in the future... I was simply more interested in the discussion that was being had before that became such a big sticking point. We were talking about her current position, character and role in the game / show. Speculation never goes anywhere, it's just that. Speculation.

I feel like it's downplaying a more important part of Sansa's transformation (that was displayed so well on screen last episode with Littlefinger) to suggest she's got some '6th sense' happening. Why not just stick to the facts we're presented in the scene?

[Envie]

Which part of they were born as wargs you do not understand? She is a warg, because she was born with that ability.

Good grief would you stop? I can have my opinion about the interpretation of the book / text as much as you are. Just because sixskins says that in the books does not make it absolute fact for Sansa Stark ffs. You're driving people away from your discussion because you refuse to accept other perspectives on the debate. I've watched you shoot down others responses for seven pages and you've done it pretty much every episode you start this conversation. I now regret joining it and won't in the future ones.

Done.

[Mladen]

Good grief would you stop? I can have my opinion about the interpretation of the book / text as much as you are. Just because sixskins says that in the books does not make it absolute fact for Sansa Stark ffs. You're driving people away from your discussion because you refuse to accept other perspectives on the debate. I've watched you shoot down others responses for seven pages and you've done it pretty much every episode you start this conversation. I now regret joining it and won't in the future ones.

Done.

First, it is not interpretation as it is plainly said in the books. Since you argue that she is not a warg, you could also argue she is not a female, or any other biological trait she was born with. Simply, she is born that way. the question we all should be asking isn't "is she a warg?" since we know the answer on that, but "will she be warging anything to the end of the books?" And that is something neither of us knows the answer.

As for my opinion, and the fact that people are driven away from discussion, I honestly don't see much of it happening. I post my opinion and people may argue with me by providing me the textual reference that makes me wrong. I haven't shoot down anyone's respond, as I am not being particularly active on these threads. Some debates naturally come to an end, and that's all.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Like I said, Jon is the best example of someone maturing as a character into a true political player, while also developing his warg abilities.

This. Just as Arya's road of becoming FM isn't downplayed by her warging ability, just as Jon's learning to lead arc hasn't been compromised by his warging abilities, I don't see a reason why Sansa would be different.

[salmonsnake]

The two of you are not in disagreement, only confused about a very, very small thing. 'Warging' as the act of warging, an instance where it takes place; differentiated from 'being a warg', the innate trait, the potentiality of the act. In the sense that I have the potentiality to learn a new language, and can realize that potential to different degrees by, say, being taught a word or two, or by more intensive study, immersing myself in the language. Put in this way, Envie might as well be saying "has Sansa learnt any new languages in the texts? If I recall correctly, she hasn't, and I'd venture to speculate that she might not ever learn a new language in the course of the last two books." That is not the same as saying "Sansa is incapable of learning new languages."

[Wouter]

As far as we know, actors know nothing about the end game of their characters.

Director Alex Graves mentioned in a recent interview ( see http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/game-of-thrones-director-alex-graves-on-filming-joffreys-wedding/2 ) that he told a number of actors what would happen to their character in later seasons (he in turn picked this up from David and/or Dan), because he felt it would affect how certain scenes should be acted and/or directed. So, allthough we don't know if Sophie Turner is one of those who was told certain info about later developments, it's a possibility to keep in mind.

One possible reason why this could turn into a very important relationship - and why D&D have made sure Tyrion was quite a bit nicer than he was in the books - is that they remain married, maybe for political reasons as I could see Tyrion being in a position to be Dany's and/or Jon's heir in the end. Since Martin also wrote the marriage between the Durrandon heir and Orys Baratheon, which came to be in even worse circumstances for the unwilling bride, it wouldn't be impossible for him to intend that.

Intrigued by the "not a killer - YET" line. Foremost candidate to be killed by Sansa is LF himself, but admittedly her storyline could take a dark turn in the Vale too, under the dark influence of LF. I hope it is the first that is being foreshadowed, rather than the latter.

As for the warg thing, GRRM explicitly said all the Stark kids are wargs. I think this will come into play at some point in Sansa's storyline, though not with the emphasis it has in Bran's or Arya's story, to be sure.

That LF dumped the poison necklace in the episode before surprised me; maybe this will be a change from what ends up happening in the books, or the hairnet will not be important anymore after all?