[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa VIII: Learning the Game

[Chebyshov]

That LF dumped the poison necklace in the episode before surprised me; maybe this will be a change from what ends up happening in the books, or the hairnet will not be important anymore after all?

Maybe they thought it would be too weird for LF not to dispose of it (it would have been), or Sansa ends up offing LF in another way (I'm inclined to agree that she's being foreshadowed as his killer). A notable change, but it doesn't rule out Sansa's ability to poison him; mayhaps she'll do it with Sweetsleep.

I'm going to be curious if they leave Lysa describing [in detail] the ingredients to make moon tea in front of Sansa. Can't help but feel like that's going to matter later.

[Annara Snow]

Director Alex Graves mentioned in a recent interview ( see http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/game-of-thrones-director-alex-graves-on-filming-joffreys-wedding/2 ) that he told a number of actors what would happen to their character in later seasons (he in turn picked this up from David and/or Dan), because he felt it would affect how certain scenes should be acted and/or directed. So, allthough we don't know if Sophie Turner is one of those who was told certain info about later developments, it's a possibility to keep in mind.

One possible reason why this could turn into a very important relationship - and why D&D have made sure Tyrion was quite a bit nicer than he was in the books - is that they remain married, maybe for political reasons as I could see Tyrion being in a position to be Dany's and/or Jon's heir in the end. Since Martin also wrote the marriage between the Durrandon heir and Orys Baratheon, which came to be in even worse circumstances for the unwilling bride, it wouldn't be impossible for him to intend that.

How?

The only thing that Tyrion can be the heir to is Casterly Rock.

As for Sansa and Tyrion remaining married for political reasons, I can only see them remaining "married", i.e. officially but not really* - and only for a while; because it's convenient for Sansa to be unable to marry anyone else, as long as she doesn't have to live with and have sex with Tyrion. But in the long run, if she wants to be a political force, a marriage to Tyrion Lannister has no advantages for Sansa and only has disadvantages: the North and the Riverlands are never going to accept her if she is married to a Lannister.

* As for the idea that they could actually be married and live as husband and wife for political reasons? That's completely out of the question, IMO. It goes against everything in Sansa's arc and everything in Tyrion's arc. Sansa's arc has shown her being disillusioned with arranged marriages and people wanting her for her claim, slowly starting to develop an acceptance of non-conventional behavior (bastards, women who have sexual relationships outside of marriage like Ellaria or Mya) and generally changing her views on social conventions, as well as developing her sexuality (which, in the books, where we are in her head, has been focusing on a completely socially inappropriate object of desire, who would not be a suitable husband for a highborn lady in any way), and the theme of sexual agency - and being denied it by others - are very prominent in her arc. Deciding to be a good wife in a political marriage would not fit with her character development; deciding to be a good wife in a political marriage that she was forced into by her captors? Not gonna happen.

Yes, GRRM wrote a story where a girl ended up falling in love with a man she was forced to marry - but 1) that was the start of Dany's story and the beginning of her journey from powerlessness to power, and ended up with Dany being widowed, hatching dragons and becoming a powerful queen - in book 1; rather than the ending of Dany's story; 2) the fact that there's one story of one of the main female characters ending up falling in love with a man she was forced to marry is an additional reason why it won't happen with another female character (aside from GRRM making sure to show that this female character, Sansa, has no romantic interest and sexual attraction to that guy at all, despite having some rather positive views about his otherwise). I also don't think that any of the main female characters will get an ending where they're happily married and live ever after with the guy they were forced to marry. Because, really - do you think GRRM is writing these books to say "hey, forced marriages are awesome, you young girls just have to learn to like it"?

It also goes completely against everything in Tyrion's arc. While Sansa wants someone who will love her for herself (which is definitely not Tyrion), Tyrion wants, most of all, someone who will really want him (which is definitely not Sansa). There was never anything satisfying in that marriage for either of them, and neither of them even wanted it. Unless you think that GRRM was really always planning for a sudden twist in which Sansa implausibly 100% changes her feelings and falls in love/finds herself incredibly attracted with Tyrion, without any setup at all... which would serve the narrative purpose of, what, Tyrion's wish-fulfillment in the most unlikely way possible, where, instead of genuinely exploring Tyrion's personal issues with women and having Tyrion grow as a person, Sansa becomes Tyrion's prize - a beautiful, highborn virginal young trophy wife with a great claim, who has come to "see the light" and fall for him for being such an awesome dude (even though his character arc since they last met has been about him getting darker and darker)?

Not gonna happen.

One possible reason why this could turn into a very important relationship - and why D&D have made sure Tyrion was quite a bit nicer than he was in the books -

The reason why they made sure Tyrion was quite a bit nicer with Sansa than he was in the books is the same reason why they made sure Tyrion was quite a bit nicer with Shae, why he doesn't have a singer killed and made into a stew, and why they made sure he was quite a bit nicer in every other situation: because they want to make sure that the viewers like Tyrion. Whether it's because of how much they like Tyrion or because they think that the TV audiences need an unambiguously likable main character to invest in after Ned Stark's death, or both.

Since Martin also wrote the marriage between the Durrandon heir and Orys Baratheon, which came to be in even worse circumstances for the unwilling bride, it wouldn't be impossible for him to intend that.

That's a part of the historical background (from 300 years before), and neither Orys nor his wife are anywhere close to being major characters in the series - they're barely characters.

That's like saying that Dany will end up becoming a slaver because her ancestors were slavers in Valyria.

[Chebyshov]

<snip>

Really well put. It would absolutely undermine both Sansa and Tyrion as characters. And this is also why I'm hoping the whole Harry the Heir thing is a big bust for Sansa...her ending up playing the good wife in a political marriage would be a huge regression. Maybe she could end up being friendly with Tyrion, but definitely not his wife.

[Pod The Impaler]

I agree with everyone who said that splitting the snow scene and the Moon Door sequence would be a terrible decision.

:agree:

[Wouter]

How?

The only thing that Tyrion can be the heir to is Casterly Rock.

Dany and her forces are the likely victors in the fight for the Iron Throne - such as it will be by the endgame (I don't think the 7K will split, allthough admittedly this remains to be seen). Possibly she will reach some kind of alliance with the Starks in general or with Jon Snow (and others who are aware of the threat of the ... Others) in particular. Maybe she will end up falling in love with Jon, as may be indicated by some of the visions in the House of Undying.

Regardless of whether we end up with Dany alone in a position of power, Dany and Jon together or Jon alone (of course there are other possibilities like Stannis or Shireen or (f)Aegon or even Tommen, but I'm going with the ones that seem more likely to me), there's the question of survival and heirs. Jon and Dany are main characters, both have aspects of a messiah (hell, there are entire subsections of the "fans" on the forum devoted to push one or the other as "Azor Ahai" candidate) and it would seem that one or both will play a decisive role in the conflict with the Others. Messianic figures often end up paying a price for their heroic acts and may die or "retreat" (think Frodo in LOTR or Rand Al'thor in WOT, or even Ben Sisko in DS9).

In the case of ASOIAF, Jon already needs a resurrection and may turn into a version of Beric Dondarrion (who felt he lost something each time, and was consumed by his mission at the time of death) or Victarion (with his fiery, unnatural hand) or Melisandre (who doesn't really need to eat or to sleep). He also swore a vow to not take lands and father no children, and while he could break that in the interests of the defence against the Others it could come back into play once the threat is defeated (for now). Bottom line, I doubt Jon will end up being the father of a long line of heirs for the Iron Throne; he may die in the war, he may refuse to sit the throne, he may decide to rule while needed but withdraw as soon as possible. Depending on how the resurrection works, he may not even be strictly human anymore.

For Dany, on the other hand, we have the problem of heirs. Ever since the stillbirth of Rhaego, there is doubt about her fertility. She has no immediate family, and she will likely end up proving Aegon is not Rhaegar's son and may well end up getting him killed. Marriages to Hizdahr or to a Greyjoy (the latter suggested in the house of the undying) are unlikely to yield a heir, or to survive for long. If she is attracted to Jon, he may not return the feeling or circumstances may be against them. Should Dany not be able to give birth (whatever the reason), she has the problem of naming a heir. The Martells and Baratheons are her closest kin I suppose, but both Stannis and Arianne have likely been opposing her (if not she could name Stannis/Shireen or Arianne as heir). Another option would be to look at her own followers, and here is where Tyrion could come into play. Especially if by this time, he has proven his worth to her (seems possible) and has become a dragonrider (Viserion may be reserved for him). And should it turn out he is Aerys' bastard (or that Dany believes him to be), then he would even get a (weak) blood claim which may be enough in the absence of other Targaryens.

As for the idea that they could actually be married and live as husband and wife for political reasons? That's completely out of the question, IMO. It goes against everything in Sansa's arc and everything in Tyrion's arc. Sansa's arc has shown her being disillusioned with arranged marriages and people wanting her for her claim, slowly starting to develop an acceptance of non-conventional behavior (bastards, women who have sexual relationships outside of marriage like Ellaria or Mya) and generally changing her views on social conventions, as well as developing her sexuality (which, in the books, where we are in her head, has been focusing on a completely socially inappropriate object of desire, who would not be a suitable husband for a highborn lady in any way), and the theme of sexual agency - and being denied it by others - are very prominent in her arc. Deciding to be a good wife in a political marriage would not fit with her character development; deciding to be a good wife in a political marriage that she was forced into by her captors? Not gonna happen.

The marriage that she was forced into by her captors is finished, except as a vehicle for Sansa's defense against other unwanted marriages. I agree on that front. However, that doesn't mean that resuming the marriage cannot be (re-)negotiated between the Starks and those who would want the marriage (Tyrion and/or Dany?) in order to keep the north glued to the south. Essentially, Sansa would be sold - or would sell herself - for political gain, not unlike what happened with the Hizdahr/Dany marriage. The marriage would then resemble Lysa Tully/Jon Arryn rather than "Arya Stark"/Ramsay Bolton.

I see where you are coming from wrt Sansa's arc, but that Sansa has become disillusioned with arranged marriages doesn't have to mean that she will definitely end up avoiding those alltogether. We don't know the mind of the author, and as reader we have certain ideas about the overarching plot for each character but GRRM may have other plans. Sansa's mother entered a political marriage, and I got the impression Catelyn wasn't under any illusions about what was happening.

Agency is all well and good, but this is a story about a culture/time/place where it isn't the norm - especially for highborn women - to get much of a say in who they have to marry. Arya is more likely to just be able to chose her husband (or to not enter any marriage at all), because she is living outside the norms of her society. Sansa still seems to conform to the general social norms of Westeros, as of AFFC.

I also don't think that any of the main female characters will get an ending where they're happily married and live ever after with the guy they were forced to marry. Because, really - do you think GRRM is writing these books to say "hey, forced marriages are awesome, you young girls just have to learn to like it"?

GRRM has said that he hates allegories; he is telling a story, it's not a political pamphlet and not necessarily meant as a source for life lessons. I doubt he is saying "hey assassins are awesone, young girls just have to learn how to become that", yet he is doing the Arya arc the way he is.

This is also why I mentioned the Durrandon girl; while we don't know if she ever got to like Orys even a little bit, certain is that this 100% forced marriage (in circumstances that were even more humilating for the girl than Sansa/Tyrion) ended up kickstarting the Baratheon line. I can hardly imagine that was a pleasant marriage, but from a political POV apparently it was "succesful". Aegon Targaryen got away with it, unlike Tywin Lannister.

It also goes completely against everything in Tyrion's arc. While Sansa wants someone who will love her for herself (which is definitely not Tyrion), Tyrion wants, most of all, someone who will really want him (which is definitely not Sansa). There was never anything satisfying in that marriage for either of them, and neither of them even wanted it.

Sansa never wanted it, but Tyrion - in books and show - really wanted it to work and tried to make it work. In ADWD, there are signs that Tyrion is irritated that Sansa "wasn't loyal" to him. I'm far from certain that Tyrion would prefer Penny, who probably really wants him, over Sansa. There is an intriguing line in his last ADWD chapter where he mentions that he misses his wife, and the context is deliberately kept vague enough to make it unclear whether he means Sansa or Tysha.

The reason why they made sure Tyrion was quite a bit nicer with Sansa than he was in the books is the same reason why they made sure Tyrion was quite a bit nicer with Shae, why he doesn't have a singer killed and made into a stew, and why they made sure he was quite a bit nicer in every other situation: because they want to make sure that the viewers like Tyrion. Whether it's because of how much they like Tyrion or because they think that the TV audiences need an unambiguously likable main character to invest to after Ned Stark's death, or both.

And by the same reasoning, they would want to prepare the ground for acceptance of an eventual Sansa/Tyrion marriage (and not just a mockery, this time) if they know this as end-game. The show is already under fire for alleged sexism, imagine the uproar in that case if they don't play their cards very carefully.

I guess they will tone down Tyrion's behaviour in Essos, by the same token. Allthough he is probably going to kill Shae this season.

[Epyon]

I really enjoyed the scene with Sansa/LF this week, well acted on both sides... A couple things I noticed:

-LF feels like a cat playing with its food, as he talks to Sansa... He's prodding/testing her with every statement.

-When Sansa asks him what he wants, his eyes (and right hand) slide down her side towards her left hand. Could be over analyzing, since Westerosi don't use wedding rings, but it would be an implication.

-LF ends his speech to Sansa by saying of his "new friends" (the Tyrells), "..nothing like a thoughtful gift, to make a new friendship ***grow strong***." (A pretty direct play on house Tyrell's words). It's subtle, and not known if show Sansa caught his little pun, but he did effectively just tell her that house Tyrell where his co-conspirators.... something that I don't remember happening in the books.

[Wouter]

LF did tell Sansa, in the books, that Olenna took the poison. He also explained the motive.

I think S4 Sansa is sharp enough to pick up the "grow strong" reference.

[Annara Snow]

Dany and her forces are the likely victors in the fight for the Iron Throne - such as it will be by the endgame (I don't think the 7K will split, allthough admittedly this remains to be seen). Possibly she will reach some kind of alliance with the Starks in general or with Jon Snow (and others who are aware of the threat of the ... Others) in particular. Maybe she will end up falling in love with Jon, as may be indicated by some of the visions in the House of Undying.

Regardless of whether we end up with Dany alone in a position of power, Dany and Jon together or Jon alone (of course there are other possibilities like Stannis or Shireen or (f)Aegon or even Tommen, but I'm going with the ones that seem more likely to me), there's the question of survival and heirs. Jon and Dany are main characters, both have aspects of a messiah (hell, there are entire subsections of the "fans" on the forum devoted to push one or the other as "Azor Ahai" candidate) and it would seem that one or both will play a decisive role in the conflict with the Others. Messianic figures often end up paying a price for their heroic acts and may die or "retreat" (think Frodo in LOTR or Rand Al'thor in WOT, or even Ben Sisko in DS9).

In the case of ASOIAF, Jon already needs a resurrection and may turn into a version of Beric Dondarrion (who felt he lost something each time, and was consumed by his mission at the time of death) or Victarion (with his fiery, unnatural hand) or Melisandre (who doesn't really need to eat or to sleep). He also swore a vow to not take lands and father no children, and while he could break that in the interests of the defence against the Others it could come back into play once the threat is defeated (for now). Bottom line, I doubt Jon will end up being the father of a long line of heirs for the Iron Throne; he may die in the war, he may refuse to sit the throne, he may decide to rule while needed but withdraw as soon as possible. Depending on how the resurrection works, he may not even be strictly human anymore.

For Dany, on the other hand, we have the problem of heirs. Ever since the stillbirth of Rhaego, there is doubt about her fertility. She has no immediate family, and she will likely end up proving Aegon is not Rhaegar's son and may well end up getting him killed. Marriages to Hizdahr or to a Greyjoy (the latter suggested in the house of the undying) are unlikely to yield a heir, or to survive for long. If she is attracted to Jon, he may not return the feeling or circumstances may be against them. Should Dany not be able to give birth (whatever the reason), she has the problem of naming a heir. The Martells and Baratheons are her closest kin I suppose, but both Stannis and Arianne have likely been opposing her (if not she could name Stannis/Shireen or Arianne as heir). Another option would be to look at her own followers, and here is where Tyrion could come into play. Especially if by this time, he has proven his worth to her (seems possible) and has become a dragonrider (Viserion may be reserved for him). And should it turn out he is Aerys' bastard (or that Dany believes him to be), then he would even get a (weak) blood claim which may be enough in the absence of other Targaryens.

The marriage that she was forced into by her captors is finished, except as a vehicle for Sansa's defense against other unwanted marriages. I agree on that front. However, that doesn't mean that resuming the marriage cannot be (re-)negotiated between the Starks and those who would want the marriage (Tyrion and/or Dany?) in order to keep the north glued to the south. Essentially, Sansa would be sold - or would sell herself - for political gain, not unlike what happened with the Hizdahr/Dany marriage. The marriage would then resemble Lysa Tully/Jon Arryn rather than "Arya Stark"/Ramsay Bolton.

And those marriages turned out so well, didn't they?

Suffice to say, we seem to have completely different ideas about what this series is about. I don't see it as a story about the three main "heroes" defeating the bad guys (Others), dividing the land between them and installing a new dynasty, with everyone else accepting their lot in life and the traditional roles that the society has imposed on them in order for the heroes to make this thing work.

In any case, your above scenario shows that you need a really complicated and convoluted scenario to justify why Tyrion of all people would be named Dany's or Jon's heir to the Iron Throne. in particular, your scenario comes off as some really unlikely wish fulfillment stuff for Tyrion. (Including the "Tyrion is a Targ" theory.) If you're going to use the "well, GRRM is describing the society the way it is and every character must accept their fate" argument - then let's also accept the fact that that society is extremely prejudiced against disabled people, especially those with congenital disabilities (something that Tyrion's storyline has been all about) and that Tyrion would be the last person they would turn to as a biological father of future heirs to the throne. Your scenario is basically "ways in which Tyrion can get all sorts of awesome stuff and Sansa doesn't get anything she wants". (Well, Tyrion wouldn't get a wife who wants him, but as a man in power, he could still have mistresses.)

I see where you are coming from wrt Sansa's arc, but that Sansa has become disillusioned with arranged marriages doesn't have to mean that she will definitely end up avoiding those alltogether. We don't know the mind of the author, and as reader we have certain ideas about the overarching plot for each character but GRRM may have other plans. Sansa's mother entered a political marriage, and I got the impression Catelyn wasn't under any illusions about what was happening.

Sansa is not Catelyn. The different main characters are actually different people with different motivations, developments and arcs - and that goes for women as well as men. If Sansa is going to end up as a political pawn and an obedient wife in an arranged political marriage, something people have been trying to make her be since book 1, then her entire arc and character development has been a colossal waste of time.

Agency is all well and good, but this is a story about a culture/time/place where it isn't the norm - especially for highborn women - to get much of a say in who they have to marry. Arya is more likely to just be able to chose her husband (or to not enter any marriage at all), because she is living outside the norms of her society. Sansa still seems to conform to the general social norms of Westeros, as of AFFC.

GRRM has said that he hates allegories; he is telling a story, it's not a political pamphlet and not necessarily meant as a source for life lessons. I doubt he is saying "hey assassins are awesone, young girls just have to learn how to become that", yet he is doing the Arya arc the way he is.

This is also why I mentioned the Durrandon girl; while we don't know if she ever got to like Orys even a little bit, certain is that this 100% forced marriage (in circumstances that were even more humilating for the girl than Sansa/Tyrion) ended up kickstarting the Baratheon line. I can hardly imagine that was a pleasant marriage, but from a political POV apparently it was "succesful". Aegon Targaryen got away with it, unlike Tywin Lannister.

Again, that's historical background from 300 years ago, not the fate of his main characters. By that logic, Dany should be in favor of slavery, like her forefathers were; in any case, she should not be acting like a revolutionary and freeing slaves. Jon shouldn't have been trying to make wildlings a part of the realm. They're going against the norm of culture/time/place. And Tyrion should not hope for any highborn marriage let alone to be chosen as a father of future heirs; he should have been content with taking care of those drains and pipes. If everyone is going to stick to the norm of their culture/time/place, what are we reading the story for? Martin is writing fantasy, not historical fiction. And heck, even in historical fiction, people have proven that they can go against the norm, including women - whether it was choosing to make an inappropriate marriage out of love and ending tragically (Mary Queen of Scots) or choosing to never marry and ending up ruling successfully for years (Elizabeth I).

Sansa never wanted it, but Tyrion - in books and show - really wanted it to work and tried to make it work. In ADWD, there are signs that Tyrion is irritated that Sansa "wasn't loyal" to him. I'm far from certain that Tyrion would prefer Penny, who probably really wants him, over Sansa. There is an intriguing line in his last ADWD chapter where he mentions that he misses his wife, and the context is deliberately kept vague enough to make it unclear whether he means Sansa or Tysha.

Tyrion never wanted it before his father cowed him into accepting it. Before that, he had never considered Sansa that way. When he thought that Sansa was going to be his wife for the rest of his life, that's when he started wanting to 'make it work'. Ironically, contrary to what people like to claim, Sansa was far more rebellious as she never thought she should 'make it work' or 'do her duty' (Tyrion was the one who said: "Come on, Sansa, let's do our duty" on their wedding night, Sansa was only thinking about obeying because she had no choice). He never had any genuine interest in Sansa as a person and was never really able to understand her; she was reading him much better than he was able to read her. He was just physically attracted to her, liked the idea of being the lord of Winterfell, and started fantasizing about her coming willingly to his bed - like Tysha 3.0 - since her lack of desire for him hurt him because of his deep insecurities. And yes, you're right that he probably wouldn't want Penny - just like he didn't want Lollys (who didn't want him like Penny does, but never made clear that she definitely didn't want him, as Sansa did) - because Tyrion is allowed to not marry people he doesn't find sexually attractive (while Sansa did not have that luxury). He didn't want Sansa for herself; he wanted his young, beautiful, virginal trophy wife with a claim to Winterfell to want him. It was pure wish-fulfillment focused on making Tyrion feel better about himself.

Which is - as far as Tyrion's arc goes - exactly why he didn't get it and is unlikely to ever get it.

And by the same reasoning, they would want to prepare the ground for acceptance of an eventual Sansa/Tyrion marriage (and not just a mockery, this time) if they know this as end-game. The show is already under fire for alleged sexism, imagine the uproar in that case if they don't play their cards very carefully.

I guess they will tone down Tyrion's behaviour in Essos, by the same token. Allthough he is probably going to kill Shae this season.

I'd really love to know how you made the logical leap from: "They made Tyrion nicer overall so the audience could have a completely likable main character to invest in" to "And this is why they made Tyrion more likable - so the audience would accept the Sansa/Tyrion marriage; which is evidence that Sansa will end up married to Tyrion"? :huh:

So, now you're saying that D&D knew from the beginning of the show that there is a Sansa/Tyrion endgame, and that all the changes to Tyrion - whitewashing, as many call it - from day one, was in order to prepare the audience for his all-important Sansa/Tyrion endgame? As evidenced by the fact that... Tyrion is generally nicer? Who would think that the whole purpose of Tyrion's portrayal on the show has been to make him a better match for Sansa! And people were complaining that they were making Sansa a prop in Tyrion's story! :rolleyes:

The show is already under fire for alleged sexism, imagine the uproar in that case if they don't play their cards very carefully.

Oh, I have news for you: if the show ends with that "Sansa/Tyrion endgame", it will be accused of sexism in any case, and rightfully so. If there is this Sansa/Tyrion endgame that the entire show has been preparing for, you know which change they should have made? Not have Sansa forcibly married to Tyrion. If you're changing everything about the characters and their dynamics, then instead of making Shae a genuine love story, make Sansa fall for Tyrion and choose Tyrion on her own. Problem solved.

[Wouter]

In any case, your above scenario shows that you need a really complicated and convoluted scenario to justify why Tyrion of all people would be named Dany's or Jon's heir to the Iron Throne.

It's not like the books haven't used complicated and convoluted scenarios before...

Im curious, who do you think will end up on the throne?

If Sansa is going to end up as a political pawn and an obedient wife in an arranged political marriage, something people have been trying to make her be since book 1, then her entire arc and character development has been a colossal waste of time.

In your opinion, and based on your reading of what Sansa's arc is about. You speak about wish fulfillment, but everybody is affected by that. Might it not be present in your wish to see Sansa's arc end the way you imagine and/or want it? Might it not be present in the way many refuse to even consider the Tyrion-as-bastard theory, even though there is about as much textual support for as against that one?

In any case, Sansa in the last book (assuming she survives -which I think is likely) will be very far from the girl in AGOT.

Which is - as far as Tyrion's arc goes - exactly why he didn't get it and is unlikely to ever get it.

Depends on how important he becomes. It's entirely possible he will end up being one of Dany's three betrayals (for Jaime's sake? defecting to Aegon?) or that he will die before the end. Maybe he will end up with Casterly Rock and nothing more. But in a scenario where he does make it to be king, or at least designated heir, he will need offspring and it's not going to be with a random tavern maid.

I agree that this is only feasible if Tyrion is supposed to win it all in the end. I don't know the endgame, I don't think you do either. Could well be Tyrion is heading for a deep fall or that he will be more of a support act for Dany and/or Jon. But you asked how it could be possible, and while my scenario may be convoluted it is not impossible. There have been small but tantalising hints that Tyrion may end up as king. And he is Martin's favorite, allthough he also writes him as a villain at times.

I'd really love to know how you made the logical leap from: "They made Tyrion nicer overall so the audience could have a completely likable main character to invest in" to "And this is why they made Tyrion more likable - so the audience would accept the Sansa/Tyrion marriage; which is evidence that Sansa will end up married to Tyrion"?

There is no logical leap; you misrepresent my argument. I wrote that, IF the showrunners have heard from Martin that the marriage will stand in the end, that they then would have reason to soften the blow for a modern audience by making Tyrion act nicer to Sansa. I agree he was a prick in the books; he threatened her in public (as a show for the sake of Robb Stark, during the negotations) and he made no attempt to warn her beforehand, unlike in the show.

I never asserted that this is definitely the reason that they made Tyrion act nicer; my statement was conditional on Martin having told them. If not, it's just part of the general theme of making characters nicer than their book counterparts, for example for the reasons you stated.

If there is this Sansa/Tyrion endgame that the entire show has been preparing for, you know which change they should have made? Not have Sansa forcibly married to Tyrion. If you're changing everything about the characters and their dynamics, then instead of making Shae a genuine love story, make Sansa fall for Tyrion and choose Tyrion on her own. Problem solved.

D&D are following Martin's outline. If there is a Tyrion/Sansa endgame, it would be because GRRM is planning to write it that way. And since the adaptation is actually quite faithful to the source material (especially considering the difficulties in filming such a massive, epic book series and the real life limitations they have to take into account), they don't make those types of drastic character changes.

Sure, Tyrion is nicer in the show, but the core character is there and his dark moment at the end of ASOS will likely be there. Similarly, Sansa is not 100% the same but the character of the books is recognisable. There are changes and changes; a complete reversal of a major situation in the books is not going to happen.

I want to stress that I consider this as a possibility, not something that is definitely going to happen or even something that is likely to happen. I'm just not ruling it out, unlike most. I've considered Tyrion as an outsider for winning the game of throne for quite some time, but this thought does not seem very popular on the forum, to make an understatement.

[Annara Snow]

It's not like the books haven't used complicated and convoluted scenarios before...

Im curious, who do you think will end up on the throne?

In my opinion? Nobody. I think that the Iron Throne will not exist anymore at the end of the story. Westeros will look very different after the events of the civil war and the invasion of the Others, and I don't know in what shape the Seven Kingdoms will be, but I don't think that they will be the same as before.

You may say it's what I want to happen, but I can't think of any other satisfying ending. I will be very disappointed if Martin ends the story with Westeros being basically the same as at the beginning of the story, with all the same institutions, and only different players.

In your opinion, and based on your reading of what Sansa's arc is about. You speak about wish fulfillment, but everybody is affected by that. Might it not be present in your wish to see Sansa's arc end the way you imagine and/or want it?

No, that's not the same thing at all. The Tyrion scenario you presented would be the equivalent of Loras Tyrell falling for Sansa circa early ASOS, marrying her and taking her to Highgarden where she lives happily, until he and Sansa become king and queen of Westeros through a complicated series of events where every other noble dies and Sansa's distant Targaryen ancestry is brought up as a reason for her to ascend the throne, and she lives happily ever after, giving birth to future kings, surrounded by adoring people and knights who are begging for her favor. In other words - a most unlikely fulfillment of the most childish and immature fantasies that the character has had.

Your Sansa scenario is the equivalent of Tyrion never getting out of the shadow of his father and doing whatever Tywin tells him for the rest of Tywin's long, successful life.

Might it not be present in the way many refuse to even consider the Tyrion-as-bastard theory, even though there is about as much textual support for as against that one?

There's very little textual support for the Tyrion-as-bastard theory. There's just evidence that Aerys had a thing for Joanna, and that's it. There's actually more possible evidence for Jaime-and-Cerse-as-Mad-King's-bastards theory (not that I believe that one either, that would make for too many secret Targaryens, but it makes a lot more narrative sense and has much more support than the Tyrion theory).

In any case, Sansa in the last book (assuming she survives -which I think is likely) will be very far from the girl in AGOT.

She already is.

I agree that this is only feasible if Tyrion is supposed to win it all in the end. I don't know the endgame, I don't think you do either. Could well be Tyrion is heading for a deep fall or that he will be more of a support act for Dany and/or Jon. But you asked how it could be possible, and while my scenario may be convoluted it is not impossible. There have been small but tantalising hints that Tyrion may end up as king. And he is Martin's favorite, allthough he also writes him as a villain at times.

Tyrion being Martin's favorite only makes it more likely that he will get to suffer more, go through a lot of poignant soul-searching, do something really huge and important for the story (that's the only part where I agree with you) and possibly go out in a huge heroic moment, than that he's doing to get some 'happy ending' where he is the king of Westeros and rules happily ever after and fathers lots of little heirs with his trophy wife. (I doubt that GRRM will give that kind of ending to anyone, let alone his favorite character.) "He had everything, the power and the girl" is what Tyrion explicitly thought in ACOK when he was Hand of the King, and we know how that turned out.

[jons nissa]

If there is this Sansa/Tyrion endgame that the entire show has been preparing for, you know which change they should have made? Not have Sansa forcibly married to Tyrion.

some would say they have. just check out any unsullied thread. the marriage has a much softer and ambiguous start on the show than the books, of that there is no doubt. it may very well be setting up a reconciliation or just be part of the whitewashing of tyrion. however, the fact that the couple was joking around after the marriage right up to the news of the slaughter of her family does support the theory of a future for the two.

[Wouter]

In my opinion? Nobody. I think that the Iron Throne will not exist anymore at the end of the story. Westeros will look very different after the events of the civil war and the invasion of the Others, and I don't know in what shape the Seven Kingdoms will be, but I don't think that they will be the same as before.

You may say it's what I want to happen, but I can't think of any other satisfying ending. I will be very disappointed if Martin ends the story with Westeros being basically the same as at the beginning of the story, with all the same institutions, and only different players.

Not that I deny there is a possibility there will be no Iron Throne, but if someone does end up gaining it and keeping it till (and beyond) the end, that doesn't necessarily mean that Westeros is basically the same. I can imagine Daenerys doing quite some reforms for example, if she ends up in that position.

There's very little textual support for the Tyrion-as-bastard theory. There's just evidence that Aerys had a thing for Joanna, and that's it. There's actually more possible evidence for Jaime-and-Cerse-as-Mad-King's-bastards theory (not that I believe that one either, that would make for too many secret Targaryens, but it makes a lot more narrative sense and has much more support than the Tyrion theory).

That's exactly what I mean with the wish-fulfilment; the evidence for both the twins-as-bastards and the Tyrion-as-bastards theories has been collected by dedicated forumers in a few threads over the years, and the number of items in support and against is roughly the same for both...

The principal objection to both theories - opportunity for Aerys to reach Joanna and the apparent lack of action from Tywin to stop it or to kill the offspring - are the same, too.

It makes a lot more narrative sense? That's one viewpoint, but not an objective truth. Tyrion as a Targ bastard makes perfect narrative sense to me and the clues are there right from Tyrion's first chapters in the entire series. Maybe because of the incest and Cersei's fireloving tendencies, many seem to like Jaime and/or Cersei as Targ bastards though, which means that similar clues as Tyrion gets are somehow meaningful for them but never for him.

Discussion like this are one reason why I am grateful the show is going full steam ahead. The way the plot is moving, we might find out for sure who is right at the end of S5, if TWOW hasn't been published yet by then. It's past time we start getting answers.

than that he's doing to get some 'happy ending' where he is the king of Westeros and rules happily ever after and fathers lots of little heirs with his trophy wife. (I doubt that GRRM will give that kind of ending to anyone, let alone his favorite character.

Some of the surviving characters are going to get a relatively happy ending, unless "bittersweet" is Martinspeak for 90% bitter and 10% sweet. There will be a person in charge of the 7K (or persons in control of parts of it if they split up).

Besides, in the more likely event that Jon and/or Dany end up on the throne and stay there (with the means to beget a heir), they would have a relatively happy ending, too.

[Annara Snow]

some would say they have. just check out any unsullied thread. the marriage has a much softer and ambiguous start on the show than the books, of that there is no doubt. it may very well be setting up a reconciliation or just be part of the whitewashing of tyrion. however, the fact that the couple was joking around after the marriage right up to the news of the slaughter of her family does support the theory of a future for the two.

Then those people are not very intelligent. I'm sorry that I have to say this, but in this case there's really no other explanation.

[Annara Snow]

Some of the surviving characters are going to get a relatively happy ending, unless "bittersweet" is Martinspeak for 90% bitter and 10% sweet. There will be a person in charge of the 7K (or persons in control of parts of it if they split up).

Besides, in the more likely event that Jon and/or Dany end up on the throne and stay there (with the means to beget a heir), they would have a relatively happy ending, too.

Some will get a relatively happy ending. Nobody will get a "I'm on the top of the world, everyone adores me, I'm the most special person ever, I've got the power and the girl/guy" ending.

I'm not going to further discuss the secret Targs theory since it's off topic here. (I don't think anyone other than Jon will be a secret Targ anyway, but even if someone is, it won't be Tyrion.)

[jons nissa]

Then those people are not very intelligent. I'm sorry that I have to say this, but in this case there's really no other explanation.

of course, you are correct in your opinion of interpreting the show and the unsullied are not.

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

of course, you are correct in your opinion of interpreting the show and the unsullied are not.

Yeah. Kind of arrogant to say people who think this or that might happen are "unintelligent". Wish people would stop speaking with such CERTAINTY about what will or won't happen or about what's feasible or not. :rolleyes: Unless GRRM is posting on this forum under a different identity, NO ONE knows what will or won't happen. At this point, I wouldn't throw any theory out simply because I don't like it.

[Grail King]

Because GRRM said so:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Quite_a_Few_Questions

Thank you just got in from work to tired to fully respond.

[Annara Snow]

of course, you are correct in your opinion of interpreting the show and the unsullied are not.

Yes, because the belief that a captive who's being forced to marry a member of the family who's been keeping her prisoner and abusing for 1.5 years and who has to be obedient at all time and tell them what they want to hear so they wouldn't kill, beat and abuse her more, is actually willingly going into the marriage because she's not screaming throughout the ceremony, even though she is obviously completely miserable, is a totally legitimate, intelligent and potentially correct opinion.

And because it was so, so difficult to figure out that it was a forced marriage from what was shown on screen. It's not like it was blatantly obvious even in the whitewashed TV version... except it really, really was.

And I love how you assume that those people that you've seen say that are representative of all the Unsullied in general. Sorry, I guess I just have a much higher opinion of the TV audiences than you do. I'm pretty sure that those people you talk about are a tiny minority. I even know Unsullied who have figured out that Ned is not really Jon's father, let alone understanding the blatantly obvious plot elements.

Yeah. Kind of arrogant to say people who think this or that might happen are "unintelligent". Wish people would stop speaking with such CERTAINTY about what will or won't happen or about what's feasible or not. :rolleyes: Unless GRRM is posting on this forum under a different identity, NO ONE knows what will or won't happen. At this point, I wouldn't throw any theory out simply because I don't like it.

Uuum, it's not about what might or might not happen. It's about what's already happened. I was talking with CERTAINTY about something that's already happened and that EVERYONE knows has happened. Except the people who are too stupid to understand that Sansa didn't marry Tyrion because she wanted to. Are you really going to dispute that?

I'm sorry, no, not all opinions are equally valid. If someone told me that the character played by Lupita N'yongo in 12 Years a Slave was not being raped because she didn't scream or struggle, I'm going to say that they're not very intelligent... as a nice way to saying they're incredibly stupid.

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

Uuum, it's not about what might or might not happen. It's about what's already happened. I was talking with CERTAINTY about something that's already happened and that EVERYONE knows has happened. Except the people who are too stupid to understand that Sansa didn't marry Tyrion because she wanted to. Are you really going to dispute that?

I'm sorry, no, not all opinions are equally valid. If someone told me that the character played by Lupita N'yongo in 12 Years a Slave was not being raped because she didn't scream or struggle, I'm going to say that they're not very intelligent... as a nice way to saying they're incredibly stupid.

Yes, I prefer the "unintelligent" phrasing as opposed to the "stupid" phrasing myself. It's a much gentler way of saying, 'You're a farking idiot.' So, I feel you on that one.

My original point, however, is that people's speculations about FUTURE events/relationships does not make them "stupid". How do we know her relationship with Tyrion DOESN'T develop into something more significant in the future? How do we know Brienne doesn't find her in Season 5 and ship her off to Essos to "protect" her (thus creating the opportunity for that relationship to develop)? Hell, how do we know ANYTHING about what happens? Pretty soon, all we're going to have are speculations about Sansa because the show is a couple of episodes away from hitting the end of the line with her. ANYTHING could happen at this point, and it's because of that fact that I reject the notion that certain things couldn't happen, or that people are 'unintelligent' for even thinking them.

As an aside, I thought Sophie Turner's quote was interesting. Granted, it was also confusing as hell considering the fact that it does not coincide with the realities of either the show or the books (as they stand RIGHT NOW). But well, honestly, I chalked it up to her knowing something we don't know yet. OR...perhaps we're reading too much into the quote. I mean, as it stands right now, Sansa thinks her whole family is dead. So...why WOULDN'T Tyrion be the "most important" relationship to her? Hell, technically, its the only one she HAS right now.

In the end, I think ANYTHING is possible. Truly, anything. And I think its dangerous for any of us to strongly subscribe to this or that theory and then have our hearts broken when and if it doesn't happen. At this point--or at least, very soon--we're ALL going to be speculators to Sansa's storyline, which puts ALL of our theories on equal ground.

[Annara Snow]

Yes, I prefer the "unintelligent" phrasing as opposed to the "stupid" phrasing myself. It's a much gentler way of saying, 'You're a farking idiot.' So, I feel you on that one.

My original point, however, is that people's speculations about FUTURE events/relationships does not make them "stupid". How do we know her relationship with Tyrion DOESN'T develop into something more significant in the future? How do we know Brienne doesn't find her in Season 5 and ship her off to Essos to "protect" her (thus creating the opportunity for that relationship to develop)? Hell, how do we know ANYTHING about what happens? Pretty soon, all we're going to have are speculations about Sansa because the show is a couple of episodes away from hitting the end of the line with her. ANYTHING could happen at this point, and it's because of that fact that I reject the notion that certain things couldn't happen, or that people are 'unintelligent' for even thinking them.

As an aside, I thought Sophie Turner's quote was interesting. Granted, it was also confusing as hell considering the fact that it does not coincide with the realities of either the show or the books (as they stand RIGHT NOW). But well, honestly, I chalked it up to her knowing something we don't know yet. OR...perhaps we're reading too much into the quote. I mean, as it stands right now, Sansa thinks her whole family is dead. So...why WOULDN'T Tyrion be the "most important" relationship to her? Hell, technically, its the only one she HAS right now.

In the end, I think ANYTHING is possible. Truly, anything. And I think its dangerous for any of us to strongly subscribe to this or that theory and then have our hearts broken when and if it doesn't happen. At this point--or at least, very soon--we're ALL going to be speculators to Sansa's storyline, which puts ALL of our theories on equal ground.

I know what DID happen in the show and in books, which is what the argument was about, that the marriage supposed wasn't forced in the show because some Unsullied supposed thought it wasn't. *facepalm*

Sophie "quote" is actually a poster quoting a translation of an interview in Spanish, which was a translation in itself unless she actually talked in Spanish, so instead of provoking crackpottery, it should be taken with a huge grain of salt. Especially since it contradicts everything she has ever said in every other interview. It's much more likely that she meant "one of the most important relationships for my character" rather than "one of the most important relationships in Game of Thrones - especially for my character" (why even add that, if their relationship is so super important for everything, surely it goes without saying that it would be important for one of the people involved? Or does she have several relationships that are also among the most important in the show overall? She never said Tyrion was the most important relationship/person for her, that's just what I postulated would have to be the case if their relationship is really one of the most important ones in the entire show...It's not like they are the only characters in the show. Or how many most important relationships are there, anyway? Five? Ten? Twenty? Fifty?)

Or, if you take that quote as correct and take it literally, then you would have to believe that Sansa/Tyrion has as much or more narrative significance for the story as Jaime/Cersei or Tyrion/Tywin, for instance. You decide which one is more likely.