[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa VIII: Learning the Game

[Annara Snow]

some would say they have. just check out any unsullied thread. the marriage has a much softer and ambiguous start on the show than the books, of that there is no doubt. it may very well be setting up a reconciliation or just be part of the whitewashing of tyrion. however, the fact that the couple was joking around after the marriage right up to the news of the slaughter of her family does support the theory of a future for the two.

Oh and BTW, weren't you the one who argued in another thread that the casting of a 40-something actor as Sandor is a proof that nothing romantic will ever happen between him and Sansa? So how come you're not arguing that the casting of 40-something Peter Dinklage as Tyrion is a proof he won't have any "future" with Sansa? You're very inconsistent!

[Mladen]

Guys, tone it down... I don't care which side you are on, discussing anyone's intelligence isn't what this thread serves for. So, either stop with that or take it somewhere else...

Now, I have to say Sansa in the role of "the good wife" (and now my parallel is CBS's Alicia Florrick) is an interesting concept. I am not thinking about being trapped in loveless marriage, but empowerment through the independence she earned by fighting for it. One of the most brilliant moments on TV I have seen in quite some time is when "the good wife" says to her husband that they are not all they have. Current dynamics between married couple in "the good wife" isn't something I would wish for Sansa, but we might see some bits of it. I don't believe it is an endgame for the two of them, but perhaps one of the steps to the resolution of their marriage. For I do agree that, as the endgame, this marriage isn't quite happy solution in narrative sense. Simply, it goes against Sansa's story, well if not in general, but certainly in AFFC, and Tyrion's in ADWD.

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

I know what DID happen in the show and in books, which is what the argument was about, that the marriage supposed wasn't forced in the show because some Unsullied supposed thought it wasn't. *facepalm*

Sophie "quote" is actually a poster quoting a translation of an interview in Spanish, which was a translation in itself unless she actually talked in Spanish, so instead of provoking crackpottery, it should be taken with a huge grain of salt. Especially since it contradicts everything she has ever said in every other interview. It's much more likely that she meant "one of the most important relationships for my character" rather than "one of the most important relationships in Game of Thrones - especially for my character" (why even add that, if their relationship is so super important for everything, surely it goes without saying that it would be important for one of the people involved? Or does she have several relationships that are also among the most important in the show overall? She never said Tyrion was the most important relationship/person for her, that's just what I postulated would have to be the case if their relationship is really one of the most important ones in the entire show...It's not like they are the only characters in the show. Or how many most important relationships are there, anyway? Five? Ten? Twenty? Fifty?)

Or, if you take that quote as correct and take it literally, then you would have to believe that Sansa/Tyrion has as much or more narrative significance for the story as Jaime/Cersei or Tyrion/Tywin, for instance. You decide which one is more likely.

I'm not sure why you think Spanish is hard to translate in to English or vice versa. Spanish isn't some third world obscure language that's "hard" to translate in a manner that captures the exact intent of the original quote. <_< So, how about we just take the quote as its stated and stop thinking something's 'wrong' with it because you don't like the implications.

Once again, NO theory is "crackpot". No one knows what will happen, so nothing should be taken off the table. Your "absolutist" way of arguing things (and your consequent belittling of those who disagree) is what I'M arguing against. How about we all just keep an open mind about the future, where ever it leads. :dunno:

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

Guys, tone it down... I don't care which side you are on, discussing anyone's intelligence isn't what this thread serves for. So, either stop with that or take it somewhere else...

Now, I have to say Sansa in the role of "the good wife" (and now my parallel is CBS's Alicia Florrick) is an interesting concept. I am not thinking about being trapped in loveless marriage, but empowerment through the independence she earned by fighting for it. One of the most brilliant moments on TV I have seen in quite some time is when "the good wife" says to her husband that they are not all they have. Current dynamics between married couple in "the good wife" isn't something I would wish for Sansa, but we might see some bits of it. I don't believe it is an endgame for the two of them, but perhaps one of the steps to the resolution of their marriage. For I do agree that, as the endgame, this marriage isn't quite happy solution in narrative sense. Simply, it goes against Sansa's story, well if not in general, but certainly in AFFC, and Tyrion's in ADWD.

I'm certain this would be a brilliant analogy if I understood the context. Sadly, I've never seen The Good Wife, so I can't really say one way or another. :frown5:

[juanml82]

because Tyrion is allowed to not marry people he doesn't find sexually attractive (while Sansa did not have that luxury).

So you think that, if Sansa was ugly, Tywin Lannister wouldn't have ordered Tyrion to marry her? Tywin had serious reasons to marry Tyrion and Sansa - giving Tyrion a new sex toy was not one of the reasons.

In the end, I think ANYTHING is possible. Truly, anything. And I think its dangerous for any of us to strongly subscribe to this or that theory and then have our hearts broken when and if it doesn't happen. At this point--or at least, very soon--we're ALL going to be speculators to Sansa's storyline, which puts ALL of our theories on equal ground.

But those reactions will be fun to see!

[Annara Snow]

So you think that, if Sansa was ugly, Tywin Lannister wouldn't have ordered Tyrion to marry her? Tywin had serious reasons to marry Tyrion and Sansa - giving Tyrion a new sex toy was not one of the reasons.

But those reactions will be fun to see!

No, but Tyrion had the option of refusing to marry Sansa or refusing to marry Lollys or refusing to marry either (Tywin wouldn't have liked it, but Tyrion was not being threatened with beatings, rape or death). Guess which one he categorically refused and which one he eventually accepted?

I'm also referring to the fandom's reactions. I don't see people going on about how "shallow" Tyrion was for saying he'd rather have his dick cut off than marry Lollys. Nobody seems to think that he is obliged to return Penny's affections in order to be deemed a non-hateful, non-shallow, non-stupid character. On the other hand, there's a "why was Sansa not nicer to Tyrion/why didn't Sansa spread her legs to Tyrion/when will Sansa learn to appreciate Tyrion's inner beauty and spread her legs for him?" thread every month.

[Annara Snow]

I'm not sure why you think Spanish is hard to translate in to English or vice versa. Spanish isn't some third world obscure language that's "hard" to translate in a manner that captures the exact intent of the original quote. <_< So, how about we just take the quote as its stated and stop thinking something's 'wrong' with it because you don't like the implications.

Once again, NO theory is "crackpot". No one knows what will happen, so nothing should be taken off the table. Your "absolutist" way of arguing things (and your consequent belittling of those who disagree) is what I'M arguing against. How about we all just keep an open mind about the future, where ever it leads. :dunno:

Spanish isn't hard to translate to English and vice versa, not are the majority of other languages, but people still translate things badly all the time. And when there's a translation of the translation, things are particularly likely to get lost in translation. Add to this the fact that, unless it's a video of Sophie talking in Spanish (there's no link provided so I don't even know what it is, though I'm guessing it's probably an article), it's actually an interviewer transcribing her words and translating them into Spanish (before someone else read it and translated it in English). Furthermore, it hasn't even been clarified if a person did the translation of the Spanish text, and if so, who did it; or if it was a Google translation (and oh gods, when you use computer translations, funny things can happen...).

So, how about we at least see the original interview (well, not really original, since it must have been translated from English in the first place)? Or how about we don't use "the quote as stated" since it's not the actual quote, but a poster quoting a translation of a translation (probably of a transcription)?

The reasons I think there's something "wrong" with the "quote" is:

1) it's not actually a quote (see above)

2) it makes no sense, especially considering the way it's worded. (Why add "especially for my character" if you've already stated that it's one of the most important relationships in a show with some 30 main characters?)

"Because you don't like the implications"? What would those implications be? Please explain, I asked and I didn't get the answer. If you actually believe that Sophie was implying that Sansa/Tyrion is one of the most important relationships in the show (one of how many? Five? Ten? Two? Three?), tell me how would that be. Are they going to be Azor Ahai reborn and Nissa Nissa? Is the final battle going to be between Sansa and Tyrion leading the opposing forces? Please tell me what you think this "implication" is.

Or are you're trying to tell me that this means that Sansa and Tyrion would end up living their whole life in a political marriage, as Wouter suggests? Sorry, but that still wouldn't make it "one of the most important relationships in the show". Unless an entire season is devoted to them living together and having babies.

Once again, NO theory is "crackpot".

The majority of the forum disagrees with you, since everyone is using the word "crackpot". Maybe you should petition for the word to be abolished?

Your "absolutist" way of arguing things (and your consequent belittling of those who disagree) is what I'M arguing against. How about we all just keep an open mind about the future, where ever it leads. :dunno:

You mean, like your absolutist way of arguing that a poster's English language quote of an interview in Spanish that we haven't even gotten to read and that was probably originally transcribed and translated from a recording of an actress speaking in English is absolutely correct and should be taken as gospel truth? Even though its own wording contradicts itself?

ETA: And what on Earth makes you think that "third world languages" should be harder to translate from?

ETA2: Oh and BTW, I used Google translations to translate your post into Spanish and into English again, just for fun. Her is what I got:

I'm not sure why you think that is difficult to translate Spanish to English or vice versa. Spanish is not a third world obscure language that is "hard" to translate in a way that captures the exact intent of the original appointment. <_ <So, what if we made the appointment as its declared and stop thinking of something "wrong" with him because you do not like the implications.

Again, the theory "nutty". Nobody knows what will happen, so nothing should be taken off the table. His "absolutist" way to discuss things (and consequent contempt for those who disagree) is what I'm arguing against. What if we all just keep an open mind about the future, which takes forever.

:)

[Newstar]

I can see her saying that it's one of the most important relationships for Sansa, but "one of the most important relationships in GoT" as a whole? That makes no sense from anything seen in the books or in the show - especially considering the fact that it also goes against everything she's said in every other interview; just going by her interviews, she's singled out Margaery, not Tyrion, as her biggest influence in KL in becoming a 'player' (Tyrion got mentioned, but only as one of the people in KL she observed and 'soaked' things from, together with Cersei and Margaery), and she's also categorically ruled out the possibility of Sansa developing any genuine romantic interest in Tyrion in every interview (and made a face to express how she or Sansa feels about the marriage in general), so how exactly would Tyrion become the most important relationship in her story, trumping her parents, her siblings, anyone she has or will have romantic interest in, Littlefinger, Joffrey, Cersei, Sweetrobin, anyone else she will get to interact while she's in Vale in near future... or how is Sansa going to become the most important, or one of the most important relationships in Tyron's story, trumping Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Tysha, Shae, anyone he does or will interact in Essos...? Especially since they aren't even likely to meet again until late in Winds of Winter. Even in the unlikely outcome that they end up ruling Westeros together, that still wouldn't be the case.

Hey, I agree with you; it seems like a weird quote, especially given Sophie Turner's other interviews. That's precisely why it jumped out at me (well, that, and Alex Graves' revelation that he's been spoiling the actors on post-ADWD material). Whether the interviewer misquoted her is something I can't speak to, but I can say that the Spanish magazine quote is pretty easily translated:

"Este es su unico y verdadero amigo, es el unico que ha sido honesto con ella. Bueno, tiene a Shae pero no es del todo sincera con ella. En Tyrion podria confiar completamente, si ella quisiera. Esta es una de las relaciones mas importantes dentro de "Juego de tronos," especialmente para mi personaje."

You don't even need to speak Spanish to translate that last bit, but I will;

"It's one of the most important relationships in Game of Thrones, especially for my character."

If you take out the comma and the "especialmente" (particularly), THEN the meaning becomes "It's one of the most important relationships in GOT for my character." Just as it would in English, the "especialmente" (particularly or especially) changes the meaning to Sansa and Tyrion's relationship being one of the most important in GOT and particularly so for Sansa.

The magazine is called Vanidad, and the interview appeared in the April issue. Scans are at kopacharmer.blogspot.com (March 28th, 2014 entry).

[jons nissa]

Oh and BTW, weren't you the one who argued in another thread that the casting of a 40-something actor as Sandor is a proof that nothing romantic will ever happen between him and Sansa? So how come you're not arguing that the casting of 40-something Peter Dinklage as Tyrion is a proof he won't have any "future" with Sansa? You're very inconsistent!

actually i said that there are several unsullied who had positive things to say about the on screen interactions of the two. it helps to keep the sources straight when discussing consistency. in any case, you have your views on both these characters and their future and others have theirs. that's what i've said in this thread. but thanks for keeping my comments from other threads in mind. that's quite nice of you.

[Zorn Gottes]

No, but Tyrion had the option of refusing to marry Sansa or refusing to marry Lollys or refusing to marry either (Tywin wouldn't have liked it, but Tyrion was not being threatened with beatings, rape or death).

Are you sure? Tywin disowned his favourite son, Jaime, for disobeying him. Maybe he would not directly kill Tyrion, but if he sent him away, how long would Tyrion have survived with no money and no protection? Being a dwarf is quite a dangeros condition in Westeros, especially when you are Tyrion Lannister an did your best to collect a good number of enemies

[Woman of War]

No, but Tyrion had the option of refusing to marry Sansa or refusing to marry Lollys or refusing to marry either (Tywin wouldn't have liked it, but Tyrion was not being threatened with beatings, rape or death).

Obviously the author wanted to link the story of Tyrion and Sansa, that's why he constructed a situation where these two got married. The plot had to be constructed the way that this event became possible while the characters concerned had to present themselves within the frame of that plot development. Plot first, characters second but fortunately Martin delivered a masterpiece of writing here in using the plot event - marriage - for a brilliant character desription of both protagonists.

If Tyrion should have followed your moral suggestions and refused to marry Sansa - how should Martin have brought T and S into one marriage vow? He could have kept Tyrion's moral integrity upright by having him beaten to bloody pulp by Tywin's men and thrown the unconscious Tyrion before the altar, for everyone to see the shame of House Lannister.

Martin wanted Tyrion and Sansa to get married but the scenario above is an unthinkable one given the dynamics of Tywin and his children. So the author had to write it that way that Tyrion, especially in the series, saw no way out even without direct physical force. So it is a bit difficult to hold something against a character if there was virtually no other turn possible within the desired story logic. Martin could not give Tyrion a way out, the character of Tyrion was doomed to marry Sansa, just as Sansa was doomed to marry Tyrion. The author wanted this to happen and he made it possible.

[Mladen]

Are you sure? Tywin disowned his favourite son, Jaime, for disobeying him. Maybe he would not directly kill Tyrion, but if he sent him away, how long would Tyrion have survived with no money and no protection? Being a dwarf is quite a dangeros condition in Westeros, especially when you are Tyrion Lannister an did your best to collect a good number of enemies

Yes we are sure that he hasn't been threatened. Jaime hasn't been disowned by Tywin, Jaime disowned himself when he chose KG. Tyrion was not ordered to marry Sansa. He had choices, options, ability to say no. As we have seen, there were other Lannisters in game. Arguing that Tyrion would have been dead if he refused to marry Sansa, is IMO, a bit too over-reaching.

I'm also referring to the fandom's reactions. I don't see people going on about how "shallow" Tyrion was for saying he'd rather have his dick cut off than marry Lollys. Nobody seems to think that he is obliged to return Penny's affections in order to be deemed a non-hateful, non-shallow, non-stupid character. On the other hand, there's a "why was Sansa not nicer to Tyrion/why didn't Sansa spread her legs to Tyrion/when will Sansa learn to appreciate Tyrion's inner beauty and spread her legs for him?" thread every month.

I agree with this...

snip

Annara, I am sorry, but I also don't see what has been lost in translation here. Sophie could be wrong, and also she can be completely right, we don't know that. I can argue based on what I know from books, not based on some idea that someone might have told someone what happens next. My conclusion that she is wrong is based on what we have in the books thus far, and I believe that according to everything we know and everything is foreshadowed and can be logically concluded, Sophie is wrong, but as others pointed out she might have some information we don't. Therefore, I wouldn't crack my head about this, since there are too many ways this could be interpreted.

[joachim]

The look on her face was she's creeped, but also ahhhh now I know one thing he wants, I think at that point she remembered Shaes words to her about LF.

Same here. She was thinking, "Oh shift, Shae was right."

[juanml82]

Hey, I agree with you; it seems like a weird quote, especially given Sophie Turner's other interviews. That's precisely why it jumped out at me (well, that, and Alex Graves' revelation that he's been spoiling the actors on post-ADWD material). Whether the interviewer misquoted her is something I can't speak to, but I can say that the Spanish magazine quote is pretty easily translated:

"Este es su unico y verdadero amigo, es el unico que ha sido honesto con ella. Bueno, tiene a Shae pero no es del todo sincera con ella. En Tyrion podria confiar completamente, si ella quisiera. Esta es una de las relaciones mas importantes dentro de "Juego de tronos," especialmente para mi personaje."

You don't even need to speak Spanish to translate that last bit, but I will;

"It's one of the most important relationships in Game of Thrones, especially for my character."

If you take out the comma and the "especialmente" (particularly), THEN the meaning becomes "It's one of the most important relationships in GOT for my character." Just as it would in English, the "especialmente" (particularly or especially) changes the meaning to Sansa and Tyrion's relationship being one of the most important in GOT and particularly so for Sansa.

The magazine is called Vanidad, and the interview appeared in the April issue. Scans are at kopacharmer.blogspot.com (March 28th, 2014 entry).

Well, the thing is, Show!Sansa can fully trust Tyrion because she doesn't have any secrets (well, she wanted Robb to win and kill Joffrey, but Tyrion knew that already). Book!Sansa is secretly planning her escape, so even if she was willing to trust him (she isn't, and as far she knows, for good reasons) there are things in which she can't possibly trust him

[Newstar]

Same here. She was thinking, "Oh shift, Shae was right."

Never gets old, LOL.

[Haus of Targaryen]

I'm really happy show Sansa is stepping up and i hope they do the rest of her arc some justice. But that line is quite illuminating if you will or it could just bethast Tyrion thinks Sansa has been through so much why not become a killer eventually it could've been very innocent but at the same time w/ all the deviations that took place in this episode who knows

[Zorn Gottes]

Yes we are sure that he hasn't been threatened. Jaime hasn't been disowned by Tywin, Jaime disowned himself when he chose KG. Tyrion was not ordered to marry Sansa. He had choices, options, ability to say no. As we have seen, there were other Lannisters in game. Arguing that Tyrion would have been dead if he refused to marry Sansa, is IMO, a bit too over-reaching.

I disagree with this. Jaime choosing the KG gave up his claim on Casterly Rock, but “You are not my son” goes far beyond that, Tywin formally disowned him and rejected him as a son/member of the family. And he was the favourite son, so we can safely assume he would not think twice to disown Tyrion (whom he always despised) or send him wherever the whores go.

[Mladen]

I disagree with this. Jaime choosing the KG gave up his claim on Casterly Rock, but “You are not my son” goes far beyond that, Tywin formally disowned him and rejected him as a son/member of the family. And he was the favourite son, so we can safely assume he would not think twice to disown Tyrion (whom he always despised) or send him wherever the whores go.

You mean after Jaime chose KG after the second time. Not to mention that GRRM himself told that Jaime was never meant to inherit Casterly Rock and that it was Tyrion's all along, and that Tywin was a bit delusional about inheritance laws. Tywin was genuinely hurt by Jaime's rejection, but he didn't disown him, because there was nothing to disown him of, Jaime already made his choice. As for formality, let we not assume that every word uttered from the mouth of the character is formality. All along it was Jaime's choice and as Cersei told him, if he went to Tywin, he would have changed his decision.

[Annara Snow]

Annara, I am sorry, but I also don't see what has been lost in translation here. Sophie could be wrong, and also she can be completely right, we don't know that. I can argue based on what I know from books, not based on some idea that someone might have told someone what happens next. My conclusion that she is wrong is based on what we have in the books thus far, and I believe that according to everything we know and everything is foreshadowed and can be logically concluded, Sophie is wrong, but as others pointed out she might have some information we don't. Therefore, I wouldn't crack my head about this, since there are too many ways this could be interpreted.

Or, you know, she may have simply been trying to say that it's one of the most important relationships for her character in the show (which makes sense, as he's been one of the people she was interacting the most in KL), rather than that it's one of the most important relationships in the show overall (which makes considerably less sense)? Especially with the added "...especially for my character". No one has yet managed to explain why she would state that it's one of the most important relationships in the show and then add that. There are some 30 major characters in the show, surely if a relationship is supposedly so important that it trumps most of the relationships that other people have, then it has to be important to one of the two people involved? Why the need to emphasize that?

And frankly. I'm surprised that no one so far has brought up the logical assumption that, if she actually had some super important secret information about major upcoming plot points that would somehow make Tyrion and Sansa the super couple of the show who end up as one of the show's most important duos or whatever, she wouldn't be trying to reveal that in an interview. She was being super cagey in all her interviews before the start of season 4 about the fact that she wouldn't stay in KL for long, but now we think that she's spoiling future seasons in the same breath?

Considering the fact that she most probably was not speaking in Spanish so her words were transcribed and translated in the first place, a lot could have been lost in translation, even if we assume that she expressed herself perfectly in conversation with the interviewer (as if we all do that 100% of the time...).

[Annara Snow]

Are you sure? Tywin disowned his favourite son, Jaime, for disobeying him. Maybe he would not directly kill Tyrion, but if he sent him away, how long would Tyrion have survived with no money and no protection? Being a dwarf is quite a dangeros condition in Westeros, especially when you are Tyrion Lannister an did your best to collect a good number of enemies

And what happened to Jaime when Tywin told him "You are not my son"? Did he lose his position at court as Lord Commander of KG? Did he need to go away?

And Tywin was offering Tyrion the option of marrying daughters of minor nobility, too.

There's no doubt that Tywin had a lot of psychological power over his children, especially Cersei and Tyrion (less so over Jaime), but I don't think that they were in physical danger. When it comes to their social position, it's debatable. They all know they owe a lot of the power of their house, and therefore their own, to Tywin's authority and reputation, but would he really go that far to send any of them away, when it would hurt the family's interests and reputation? Cersei especially should have no reason to give in so easily, Tywin can't just decide to punish the queen regent for disobeying him - but she still gives in.

Obviously the author wanted to link the story of Tyrion and Sansa, that's why he constructed a situation where these two got married. The plot had to be constructed the way that this event became possible while the characters concerned had to present themselves within the frame of that plot development. Plot first, characters second but fortunately Martin delivered a masterpiece of writing here in using the plot event - marriage - for a brilliant character desription of both protagonists.

If Tyrion should have followed your moral suggestions and refused to marry Sansa - how should Martin have brought T and S into one marriage vow? He could have kept Tyrion's moral integrity upright by having him beaten to bloody pulp by Tywin's men and thrown the unconscious Tyrion before the altar, for everyone to see the shame of House Lannister.

Martin wanted Tyrion and Sansa to get married but the scenario above is an unthinkable one given the dynamics of Tywin and his children. So the author had to write it that way that Tyrion, especially in the series, saw no way out even without direct physical force. So it is a bit difficult to hold something against a character if there was virtually no other turn possible within the desired story logic. Martin could not give Tyrion a way out, the character of Tyrion was doomed to marry Sansa, just as Sansa was doomed to marry Tyrion. The author wanted this to happen and he made it possible.

I'm not quite following you there. We can't say "well, the character A did this and this because the author needed it for the plot.". Sure, that's why characters do the things they do, but in that case, there would be no point in discussing characters at all. We would just say: "You can't judge Jaime for pushing Bran/Lysa for poisoning Jon and framing the Lannisters/Walder Frey for organizing the Red Wedding/you can't praise Jaime for sending Brienne to find Sansa/Stannis for coming to the rescue of the NW/Tyrion for saving Jorah, because it was needed for the plot". It would mean that characters are all nothing but plot devices and that their characterization doesn't matter at all and is something that the author can change any time he wants. Sure, that can happen, but it makes for very bad writing.