[Book spoilers] About Jon and Locke

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

I don't see Locke turning around. He's the bastard that cut off Jaime's hand for being smug and arrogant. He's the one who was buddying up to Ramsey and sharing torture stories. Sorry, I don't see him softening towards Jon.

Yep -- Bolton promised him minor nobility. No way would a commoner cutthroat turn *that* down.

[Waxfoot]

I like the enthusiasm everyone, but Locke was sent to the Wall specifically to see if the remaining Stark boys are there with Jon, and to capture/eliminate them. His "betrayal" or "desertion" once he catches wind of Bran & Co.is a function of his mission.

If he fails and then morphs into a Bowen Marsh character, it remains to be seen.

My guess is he'll come into contact with Bran, it'll be a cat & mouse game or something, and his death will be a payoff during a climactic scene this season or next. Regardless, his time with Jon is limited in my opinion.

Locke has already fulfilled the Vargo Hoat role, next I think he will hunt for Bra (under some night's watch ranger pretext), then return to the wall and happen to receive instructions to kill Jon Snow from Cersei via Roose Bolton.

What we know of Locke so far is that he a mercenary and a violent one. This would fit.

[Veltigar]

I think they still need to keep it as a brother who does the stabbing. And now that Pyp has been mentioned, he seems a likely candidate. If he or even Grenn did it while saying, for the watch, then it would actually be an emotional scene way more than if Locke did it.

I like the Pyp suggestion, although I think it's more likely that he'll take on Daeron's role and get killed by Arya. Grenn, well I can't see him or Edd betray Jon. They are totally on board with his plan, I think it would be jarring to have them oppose him.

[dbunting]

Correct...jarring equals emotional. Not saying I want this but it would hit you like a ton of bricks

[Dany's Silver]

No, Bowen Marsh kills Jon for totally different reasons then Locke would, it would change so many things about the story at the wall.

Besides that point it looks fairly likely that Locke is going to die in whatever happens at Crasters since he's sent by Bolton to "find those two boys" and we know Brans there and stuff. Locke has no reason to stay around for the time it would take to get to Jons assassination. I thought it was made pretty clear in the show, I don't understand where people made this Marsh- Locke connection at all.

I really hope it remains Bowen Marsh who leads the mutineers against Jon.

It's pretty obvious who is being set up on the show to play the "Bowen Marsh" role of the faithful brother to stab Jon.

Pyp.

This just rips my heart out. It would certainly be poignant, but I would hate to see that. :bawl: I would really like them to not change the nature of Jon's relationship/friendship with his brothers. Pyp risked being caught and charged as a deserter to bring Jon back to the wall in AGoT, and I can't see him turning on Jon. It could be that it's a good thing that Pyp is around at the Wall while Jon is gone, because he can keep an eye on things. Perhaps he'll overhear Thorne and Asshat Slynt hoping Jon doesn't come back from Craster's Keep? I would prefer something that, which would hopefully make Pyp a staunch supporter. We do need to remember that Pyp isn't a ranger, and even though Dolorous Edd isn't either, both he and Grenn will be helpful since they just escaped. As I said elsewhere, perhaps off screen they've made Jon aware that Ghost is at CK, and they can help him free Ghost (and possibly Summer).

Yes the actor is there, but he had cut his hair very short, and I read somewhere that the directors changed his character, so he is now credited as Othell Yarwyck i think?

B. Cogman clarified that after the GoT wiki confused the matter. :)

I don't think Locke will be alive by Episode 9.

Word.

I think they still need to keep it as a brother who does the stabbing. And now that Pyp has been mentioned, he seems a likely candidate. If he or even Grenn did it while saying, for the watch, then it would actually be an emotional scene way more than if Locke did it.

I'll say it again: :bawl:

<snip>

No way in hell is Locke going to 'become' Coldhands or anyone else for that matter. Now who or what Locke does become (reformed ally or hidden spy) remains to be seen. I personally think he's a communication tool for the Boltons. He won't get Bran or Rickon obviously so they'll have him desert and run back to Roose as soon as he sees just how many wildlings there really are out there - or if he sees an Other.

I have been thinking that Locke will be direwolf food, but I also just realized that Locke cutting off Jaime's hand (semi-crippling him) is kind of a karmic kick at Jaime's ass since he full-on crippled Bran (not that I like Locke after everything he wanted to do to Brienne).

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

Locke is going to be the one that stabs Jon. I mean come on y'all, we all know that this series has already taken a different route. The unsullied who watch this show don't care about Bowen Marsh and the oath of the nights watch, and what they stand for. But Locke stabbing Jon is good television.

[Dany's Silver]

Locke is going to be the one that stabs Jon. I mean come on y'all, we all know that this series has already taken a different route. The unsullied who watch this show don't care about Bowen Marsh and the oath of the nights watch, and what they stand for. But Locke stabbing Jon is good television.

No. Just no. It would deprive me of the pleasure of watching the direwolves make short work of Locke. :P

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

No. Just no. It would deprive me of the pleasure of watching the direwolves make short work of Locke. :P

That would be nice for us book readers but we aren't the target audience. I would love that as well, hell even Bran warging into Summer and eating Locke would be sweet.

[sj4iy]

No. Just no. It would deprive me of the pleasure of watching the direwolves make short work of Locke. :P

I would settle for Rast, myself.

[Hiram McDrogon]

Think of the story arcs. Presumably next episode Karl's going to die - and I doubt they're going to have two main villains, Karl and Locke, both die in the same episode and indeed pretty much the same scene. (The show only does that to heroes I think.) Purely because of that I don't think Locke's going to die at Craster's.

My guess is that somehow he's going to be chasing after Bran, although I have little idea how that'll play out - after all, it's not exactly going to be a dramatic race. I'll be quite surprised if Locke returns to Castle Black, given that his main task is to find the Stark boys.

I had assumed long ago that Coldhands was cut, as Sam's actor apparently confirmed, but now I'm starting to wonder. I still don't think he's going to appear, but his intervention makes untying the "Casterese Knot" easier: he can get Bran out so Jon doesn't meet him (although I'm not averse at all to the two meeting), and he can provide an adversary that ensures Locke follows Bran over a couple of episodes. If Coldhands isn't there, then a Locke/Bran confrontation would happen almost immediately - it's not as if Hodor's going to drag Bran faster than Locke can walk. But if Coldhands is there, Locke will skulk along behind, uncertain about what he's going to do.

[Dany's Silver]

I would settle for Rast, myself.

Both of them then.

[Envie]

Yep -- Bolton promised him minor nobility. No way would a commoner cutthroat turn *that* down.

This is why I thought it was really odd Locke would ask to take his NW vows as a recruit so he could join Jon Snow's forray to Craster's. If he's been promised a knighthood - he can't very well take that as a 'deserter' of the Night's Watch - in fact deserters are supposed to be killed for it. Is Roose Bolton just going to ignore him taking the vows?

[sj4iy]

This is why I thought it was really odd Locke would ask to take his NW vows as a recruit so he could join Jon Snow's forray to Craster's. If he's been promised a knighthood - he can't very well take that as a 'deserter' of the Night's Watch - in fact deserters are supposed to be killed for it. Is Roose Bolton just going to ignore him taking the vows?

Well, the North is pretty lawless right now thanks to Bolton and his bastard, so probably.

[Bear Island]

I could definitely see Locke developing conflicting notions about what he's supposed to do for Roose the longer he spends time at the Wall with Jon. He seems affable enough and has a connection with Jon almost immediately (although he's putting on a front for now to get in his good graces).

My money is on him becoming Jon's right hand at the Wall after he becomes LC and taking on many of the Bowen Marsh actions in the following seasons. Obviously, the dynamic would be different because he wouldn't be the old-guard established NW man that Marsh is but you would be able to keep the audience on their toes about just exactly where his loyalties lie which could be interesting. And when his buddy Ramsay sends the goading letter to Jon, that's where you'll see what his true colors are.

Really, anything that keeps Noah Taylor around is fine with me. That guy is awesome.

I've been lucky enough to work with Noah and he is an amazing guy. Really kind and an amazing actor. I was thrilled to see him on GOT.

I totally agree with you, I tend to think Locke might come to like Jon and struggle with where his loyalties lie. It would be boring if he were nothing more than an evil guy who will turn on Jon the first chance he gets.

[Cazzy]

So out of what I can imagine possibly happening:

1.Locke stabs jon- I don't really see the purpose of why locke would do this, unless roose thought jon had some sort of claim to the north. I can't really make a connection for locke's purpose in doing this without it being far fetched. It also has absolutely no shock of betrayal like books had.

2.Jon kills locke at crasters keep to protect bran-This would be so stupid to even reintroduce locke this season for something as pointless as this. They have already given bran's story drama with the guys at craster's keep, what purpose could lock possibly serve? I don't give the show writers much credit but I do give them more credit than this.

3.Locke follows bran- If he replaces the fight of the white walkers in front of the cave and is killed by bran's group(possibly cold hands), it does kind of add suspense to non book readers by showing that bran is being followed and is in constant danger. Problem being is why he would follow them instead of just killing them. He could possibly be used as an introduction to coldhands as someone said before, but I dunno I just don't see this happening.

4.Locke changes and becomes an ally to jon-This would be really interesting to see as locke is a really good character and this would make the character even better. Again I don't really see this happening for some reason.

5.How I would do it-Melisandre sees who locke really is and forces him to help mance get into winterfell and get close to jeyne. He can then either betray mance or get discovered with him.

So basically I have absolutely no idea wtf they are doing with locke, but I really hope it is not # 1 or 2.

[bent branch]

I have been reading with interest the posts on how Locke may be in place to be the one who stabs Jon. There was always an element of "Southron" influence in the assasination attempt on Jon. First there was the letter from Tywin and then we saw that Thorne, Marsh and Yarwick were plotting together. If Locke is used to assasinate Jon, the show is simply showing the "Southron" impetus behind the attack more clearly. Same basic result, just a clearer picture of what was behind the stabbing.

[six]

I think it's entirely possible Locke will be the Bowen Marsh of the situation, as they tend to do these sort of things and they have a good actor/character with Locke and a recognisable face for the audience. I know plot wise it wouldn't make as much sense, but then again neither does this Jon/Bran/Craster's plot (I'm still enjoying it though, because Jon and the NW are finally getting screen time).

[briantw]

This is why I thought it was really odd Locke would ask to take his NW vows as a recruit so he could join Jon Snow's forray to Craster's. If he's been promised a knighthood - he can't very well take that as a 'deserter' of the Night's Watch - in fact deserters are supposed to be killed for it. Is Roose Bolton just going to ignore him taking the vows?

I would imagine having the Warden of the North as a friend would alleviate those concerns. Roose can simply request that the King pardon Locke and I'd imagine the crown would comply. They'd have no reason not to, as Roose is their key to a subdued North.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I think it's entirely possible Locke will be the Bowen Marsh of the situation, as they tend to do these sort of things and they have a good actor/character with Locke and a recognisable face for the audience. I know plot wise it wouldn't make as much sense, but then again neither does this Jon/Bran/Craster's plot (I'm still enjoying it though, because Jon and the NW are finally getting screen time).

It does "make sense" it's just a bit contrived. The main thing everyone seems to be missing about Jon's assassination attempt is that it was done by his long-time brothers, loyal men of the Night's Watch who did what they did because they thought it was better for the watch overall, and that Jon was essentially becoming a traitor. He wasn't shanked because people just hate him or they're treacherous bastards deep down. This isn't Carlito's Way. Obviously it was still messed up, but I think two important things that would be completely negated by this switch is that 1) Jon's leadership isn't perfect even though his intent is good and 2) Jon needs to be truly betrayed by his own, loyal men to setup the future events.

[Zoe_H]

3.Locke follows bran- If he replaces the fight of the white walkers in front of the cave and is killed by bran's group(possibly cold hands), it does kind of add suspense to non book readers by showing that bran is being followed and is in constant danger. Problem being is why he would follow them instead of just killing them. He could possibly be used as an introduction to coldhands as someone said before, but I dunno I just don't see this happening.

Dunno, but perhaps Locke would be curious enough to try to follow Bran to his destination - to find out what is it that is so important to Bran that he would abandon Jon? What is this special treasure that lies further to the north?

Having Locke as a Lieutenant Gerard character hounding the group might help give Bran's story a greater sense of urgency than was delivered in the books.