[Book spoilers] About Jon and Locke

[DaveyJoe]

Well Locke is one of Jon's men now, he's officially a brother of the Night's Watch is he not? Jon may never know of Locke's relationship with Bolton, so from his perspective he's still being betrayed by his brothers. If Locke sticks around he has time to gain some loyalty to Jon and respect for the Night's Watch. Maybe he sees something north of the wall that convinces him that the war up north is the most important thing going on.

[Ingelheim]

Well Locke is one of Jon's men now, he's officially a brother of the Night's Watch is he not? Jon may never know of Locke's relationship with Bolton, so from his perspective he's still being betrayed by his brothers. If Locke sticks around he has time to gain some loyalty to Jon and respect for the Night's Watch. Maybe he sees something north of the wall that convinces him that the war up north is the most important thing going on.

But his perspective means nothing. The thing is, a REAL member of the NW, Bowen, betrayed his LC and tired to murder him. If Locke does this, it would mean that the NW didn't betray Jon. Which is, of course, wrong.

[D_Richard]

Dunno, but perhaps Locke would be curious enough to try to follow Bran to his destination - to find out what is it that is so important to Bran that he would abandon Jon? What is this special treasure that lies further to the north?

Having Locke as a Lieutenant Gerard character hounding the group might help give Bran's story a greater sense of urgency than was delivered in the books.

Why would curiosity lead him to follow Bran when Roose sent him north to find the Stark boys? It's why he's there.

What I find most interesting, however, is what Locke does if/when he sees what's really at stake? Lord Bolton's commands won't seem so important once Locke gets a good look at a White Walker.

And with such an interesting actor like Taylor, I'd love to see D&D write some more dimension into his character.

[DaveyJoe]

But his perspective means nothing. The thing is, a REAL member of the NW, Bowen, betrayed his LC and tired to murder him. If Locke does this, it would mean that the NW didn't betray Jon. Which is, of course, wrong.

Jon was stabbed my multiple people, if Locke is one of the people it won't change the fact that he's been betrayed by a number of his NW brothers.

[Envie]

I would imagine having the Warden of the North as a friend would alleviate those concerns. Roose can simply request that the King pardon Locke and I'd imagine the crown would comply. They'd have no reason not to, as Roose is their key to a subdued North.

That's a pretty big gamble for Locke to voluntarily take - especially considering he's made it clear several times now he can't stand nobles or their laws. I highly doubt Locke actually trusts Roose Bolton and certainly doesn't trust the crown to pardon him. I'm just not buying it that he'd willingly take the vows to the night's watch thinking he'll still get a knight-hood when he returns home. There's a plot twist in there somewhere we have no idea about since Locke wasn't in the books.

4.Locke changes and becomes an ally to jon-This would be really interesting to see as locke is a really good character and this would make the character even better. Again I don't really see this happening for some reason.

I think the 'reason' you and most of us don't see this happening is because we've already been shown Locke's despicable side. Not only did he chop off Jaime's hand (which could have been seen as treasonous by the crown) but he also put Brienne in a pit with a grizzly bear for sport. Seems quite a few people in this thread are forgetting this side of the character they're suddenly all praising as the next hero to the Night's Watch. haha! I think Locke's got more than Jon Snow fooled with good acting right now. :drunk:

[Hath4]

The man is friends with ramsay, he is a huge threat and a terrible guy. He has one goal at the wall and that is to kill the remaining Starks.

[briantw]

That's a pretty big gamble for Locke to voluntarily take - especially considering he's made it clear several times now he can't stand nobles or their laws. I highly doubt Locke actually trusts Roose Bolton and certainly doesn't trust the crown to pardon him. I'm just not buying it that he'd willingly take the vows to the night's watch thinking he'll still get a knight-hood when he returns home. There's a plot twist in there somewhere we have no idea about since Locke wasn't in the books.

I don't think it's that big of a gamble. He's working directly under the orders of the new Warden in the North. If he does his job, he can probably safely assume that he will be protected and rewarded by Roose. He's likely only taking his vows because that's the only way he'd be allowed to go beyond the Wall with Jon.

I think the 'reason' you and most of us don't see this happening is because we've already been shown Locke's despicable side. Not only did he chop off Jaime's hand (which could have been seen as treasonous by the crown) but he also put Brienne in a pit with a grizzly bear for sport. Seems quite a few people in this thread are forgetting this side of the character they're suddenly all praising as the next hero to the Night's Watch. haha! I think Locke's got more than Jon Snow fooled with good acting right now. :drunk:

To be fair, Jaime was an enemy captive when he chopped his hand off, so it's not as if there was any treason there. The Boltons were still allied with the Starks at this point as far as everyone knew, and Locke had no reason to believe otherwise. As for Brienne, well, it doesn't really seem abnormal for wartime soldiers in this series to do terrible things to women, and surely not all of those soldiers are simply cruel like the Mountain. We hear descriptions of those acts all the time in the books.

I'm not excusing Locke or saying he's a good guy, but none of his actions thus far have been anywhere near what we've seen Ramsay do.

[Banner Without Brothers]

I think the Wildlings attack craster's keep before the watch gets there. Bran and the gang go meet Mance Rayder. Who sends them on their way because they are trying to fight the Others. Locke sees no oppertunity to Kill Jon so goes back to the wall with him or goes off in search of Bran. I don't think he's going to die in the next episode. One of the trends of the story is to have unlikely temporary alliances/friendships Arya/Hound for example. I think Jon and Locke is another example of this. But I don't see it lasting too long.

[sj4iy]

I think the Wildlings attack craster's keep before the watch gets there. Bran and the gang go meet Mance Rayder. Who sends them on their way because they are trying to fight the Others. Locke sees no oppertunity to Kill Jon so goes back to the wall with him or goes off in search of Bran. I don't think he's going to die in the next episode. One of the trends of the story is to have unlikely temporary alliances/friendships Arya/Hound for example. I think Jon and Locke is another example of this. But I don't see it lasting too long.

...the preview clearly shows that Jon's band of Watchmen attack Craster's Keep "at sundown".

[Envie]

I don't think it's that big of a gamble. He's working directly under the orders of the new Warden in the North. If he does his job, he can probably safely assume that he will be protected and rewarded by Roose. He's likely only taking his vows because that's the only way he'd be allowed to go beyond the Wall with Jon.

To be fair, Jaime was an enemy captive when he chopped his hand off, so it's not as if there was any treason there. The Boltons were still allied with the Starks at this point as far as everyone knew, and Locke had no reason to believe otherwise. As for Brienne, well, it doesn't really seem abnormal for wartime soldiers in this series to do terrible things to women, and surely not all of those soldiers are simply cruel like the Mountain. We hear descriptions of those acts all the time in the books.

I'm not excusing Locke or saying he's a good guy, but none of his actions thus far have been anywhere near what we've seen Ramsay do.

Why are you trying to make Locke into a redeemable character? yuck! The guy's a complete creep and deserves to die for what he did to both Jaime and Brienne. I'm not sure why there's this sudden obsession from a lot of show viewers into making Locke some sort of Night's Watch hero. He's there on very nefarious business - he's not going to become Jon's future ally.

[Dany's Silver]

I have been reading with interest the posts on how Locke may be in place to be the one who stabs Jon. There was always an element of "Southron" influence in the assasination attempt on Jon. First there was the letter from Tywin and then we saw that Thorne, Marsh and Yarwick were plotting together. If Locke is used to assasinate Jon, the show is simply showing the "Southron" impetus behind the attack more clearly. Same basic result, just a clearer picture of what was behind the stabbing.

I'm pretty sure Locke is a northerner. If the showrunners want to use Noah Taylor to play another character (and have the makeup department turn him into the Old Pomegranate aka Bowen Marsh, that's cool), but Locke is already a replacement for Vargo Hoat. I don't think it works for the show to make the character Locke a replacement for Bowen Marsh because as DarkAndFullOfTurnips and Ingelheim both say:

It does "make sense" it's just a bit contrived. The main thing everyone seems to be missing about Jon's assassination attempt is that it was done by his long-time brothers, loyal men of the Night's Watch who did what they did because they thought it was better for the watch overall, and that Jon was essentially becoming a traitor. He wasn't shanked because people just hate him or they're treacherous bastards deep down. This isn't Carlito's Way. Obviously it was still messed up, but I think two important things that would be completely negated by this switch is that 1) Jon's leadership isn't perfect even though his intent is good and 2) Jon needs to be truly betrayed by his own, loyal men to setup the future events.

But his perspective means nothing. The thing is, a REAL member of the NW, Bowen, betrayed his LC and tired to murder him. If Locke does this, it would mean that the NW didn't betray Jon. Which is, of course, wrong.

Locke is going to go be a snack for at least one of the direwolves, if not both. :D

I think the Wildlings attack craster's keep before the watch gets there. Bran and the gang go meet Mance Rayder. Who sends them on their way because they are trying to fight the Others. Locke sees no oppertunity to Kill Jon so goes back to the wall with him or goes off in search of Bran. I don't think he's going to die in the next episode. One of the trends of the story is to have unlikely temporary alliances/friendships Arya/Hound for example. I think Jon and Locke is another example of this. But I don't see it lasting too long.

I can't see Mance Rayder allowing a member of Jon Snow's family to leave and go further north when that same person would make a handy hostage! I just don't see that happening...

[DaveyJoe]

Because the book is full of grey, redeemable characters?

[briantw]

Why are you trying to make Locke into a redeemable character? yuck! The guy's a complete creep and deserves to die for what he did to both Jaime and Brienne. I'm not sure why there's this sudden obsession from a lot of show viewers into making Locke some sort of Night's Watch hero. He's there on very nefarious business - he's not going to become Jon's future ally.

I kind of feel like, at that point in the story, Jaime basically got what was coming to him. He'd done a ton of terrible things, and he still does several more after losing his hand.

[Envie]

I kind of feel like, at that point in the story, Jaime basically got what was coming to him. He'd done a ton of terrible things, and he still does several more after losing his hand.

Ok sure, that's Jaime Lannister, one of the major characters in a major house of the story. Locke is nobody, literally. He doesn't even exist in the books. I'd be really surprised if they make him into an ally / hero of Jon's story.

[Dany's Silver]

Ok sure, that's Jaime Lannister, one of the major characters in a major house of the story. Locke is nobody, literally. He doesn't even exist in the books. I'd be really surprised if they make him into an ally / hero of Jon's story.

This.

[Asshai by the Shadow]

I think the 'reason' you and most of us don't see this happening is because we've already been shown Locke's despicable side. Not only did he chop off Jaime's hand (which could have been seen as treasonous by the crown) but he also put Brienne in a pit with a grizzly bear for sport. Seems quite a few people in this thread are forgetting this side of the character they're suddenly all praising as the next hero to the Night's Watch. haha! I think Locke's got more than Jon Snow fooled with good acting right now. :drunk:

LOL agreed. He's fooled everyone apparently, even myself. I guess this shows he's a good actor. It's so easy to forget to hate a character in the GOT world. But if he was one of the brothers who stabbed Jon I wouldn't mind as long as he's not one of the main ones.

[I'll pay the iron price]

Jaime cant really complain about "treason to the crown"

He killed a king (albeit he was mad as a hatter)

He also had sex with another Kings wife (Cersei)

[Ingelheim]

1. Try to kill Jon in Craster's Keep and get killed by him

2. Try to kill Bran when everyone is fighting around.

3. Turn his cloak and become a brother of the NW in good heart.

4. Follow Bran if he, somehow, escapes Craster's Keep.

5. Get killed by Karl, Rast, etc.

6. Fail his quest and return to Dreadfort.

7. Fail to kill Bran and be killed in Ep.9

8. Survive both Craster's Keep and Battle of Castle Black and remain there.

Those are the options.

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

This is why I thought it was really odd Locke would ask to take his NW vows as a recruit so he could join Jon Snow's forray to Craster's. If he's been promised a knighthood - he can't very well take that as a 'deserter' of the Night's Watch - in fact deserters are supposed to be killed for it. Is Roose Bolton just going to ignore him taking the vows?

That's a fair point -- but I have the sense that oaths don't mean much anymore, if they ever meant anything to Bolton.

Also, apparently he wasn't going to be allowed to go unless he took the vow. After overhearing Jon & Sam estimate that Bran was at Craster's, Locke probably calculated "so what" about the oath, if it meant finding Bran and getting knighthood. And, in the present political climate, he'd probably get away with it.

[bent branch]

I'm pretty sure Locke is a northerner. If the showrunners want to use Noah Taylor to play another character (and have the makeup department turn him into the Old Pomegranate aka Bowen Marsh, that's cool), but Locke is already a replacement for Vargo Hoat. I don't think it works for the show to make the character Locke a replacement for Bowen Marsh because as DarkAndFullOfTurnips and Ingelheim both say:

I am also certain that Locke is a northerner in the series, but these events are at least partially responsible for the assassination of Jon. First is this conversation between Tyrion and Tywin (Chapter 32-ASOS):

Tyrion's anger flashed. "Lord Janos is a hollow suit of armor who will sell himself to the highest bidder."

"I count that a point in his favor. Who is like to bid higher than us?" He turned to Pycelle. "Send a raven. Write that King Jeffrey was deeply saddened to hear of Lord Commander Mormont's death, but regrets that he can spare no men just now, whilst so many rebels and usurpers remain in the field. Suggest that matters might be quite different once the throne is secure...provided the king has full confidence in the leadership of the Watch. In closing, ask Marsh to pass along His Grace's fondest regards to his faithful friend and servant, Lord Janos Slynt."

That this letter found its audience in evident in this scene from Chapter 79-ASOS (Jon is in the baths of Castle Black):

The sound of voices echoing off the vaulted ceiling brought him back to Castle Black. "I don't know," a man was saying, in a voice thick with doubts. "Maybe if I knew the man better...Lord Stannis didn't have much good to say of him, I'll tell you that."

"When has Stannis Baratheon ever had much good to say of anyone?" Ser Alliser's flinty voice was unmistakable. "If we let Stannis choose our Lord Commander, we become his bannermen in all but name. Tywin Lannister is not like to forget that, and you know it will be Lord Tywin who wins in the end. He's already beaten Stannis once, on the Blackwater."

"Lord Tywin favors Slynt," said Bowen Marsh, in a fretful, anxious voice. "I can show you his letter, Othell. 'Our faithful friend and servant,' he called him."

Jon Snow sat up suddenly, and the three men froze at the sound of the slosh. "My lords," he said with cold courtesy.

So Tywin sends a letter and Thorne, Marsh and Yarwick are worried about pleasing either Tywin or Stannis. Thorne has said that Tywin will win and the NW will suffer if they don't separate themselves from Stannis. So, just before Jon is stabbed the pink letter comes in, which 1. comes with a pink Bolton seal (the Warden of the North or in other words the official representative of the IT in the north) and 2. informs them that Stannis has died. When the letter says if you give me these hostages and I'll leave you alone, but Jon decides to take the Wildings to go fight Bolton, Marsh, et. al. decide it is time to take Jon out. They do it for the Watch, but it is because they are afraid of bringing the wrath of the IT (in the form of the Boltons) down on them.

So, rather than telling the story with Marsh and Yarwick being influenced by Tywin's letter the show is simply going to put a Bolton operative in the NW. It's a much more straight forward story and to be blunt the connection between Tywin's letter and Jon's stabbing seems to go over many people's heads.