[Book spoilers] About Jon and Locke

[Dany's Silver]

I am also certain that Locke is a northerner in the series, but these events are at least partially responsible for the assassination of Jon. First is this conversation between Tyrion and Tywin (Chapter 32-ASOS):

That this letter found its audience in evident in this scene from Chapter 79-ASOS (Jon is in the baths of Castle Black):

So Tywin sends a letter and Thorne, Marsh and Yarwick are worried about pleasing either Tywin or Stannis. Thorne has said that Tywin will win and the NW will suffer if they don't separate themselves from Stannis. So, just before Jon is stabbed the pink letter comes in, which 1. comes with a pink Bolton seal (the Warden of the North or in other words the official representative of the IT in the north) and 2. informs them that Stannis has died. When the letter says if you give me these hostages and I'll leave you alone, but Jon decides to take the Wildings to go fight Bolton, Marsh, et. al. decide it is time to take Jon out. They do it for the Watch, but it is because they are afraid of bringing the wrath of the IT (in the form of the Boltons) down on them.

So, rather than telling the story with Marsh and Yarwick being influenced by Tywin's letter the show is simply going to put a Bolton operative in the NW. It's a much more straight forward story and to be blunt the connection between Tywin's letter and Jon's stabbing seems to go over many people's heads.

The chapters you reference are from ASOS, but in the ADWD timeline, Tywin is long dead by the time Jon's brothers in the NW stab him, so I don't think that element of the NW is quite so afraid of the IT's retribution. IIRC, isn't the NW aware of the troubles facing the IT under Cersei's severe mismanagement? I'm sorry, but I'm also just not convinced that Locke will be around for Jon's stabbing. This betrayal is far more poignant because it comes from within the NW, from men who have served longer than Jon.

[Envie]

That's a fair point -- but I have the sense that oaths don't mean much anymore, if they ever meant anything to Bolton.

Also, apparently he wasn't going to be allowed to go unless he took the vow. After overhearing Jon & Sam estimate that Bran was at Craster's, Locke probably calculated "so what" about the oath, if it meant finding Bran and getting knighthood. And, in the present political climate, he'd probably get away with it.

Yes, these are all reasons that make sense for the plot even though I feel like this Locke guy should be smarter than to trust Roose Bolton. He was however dumb enough to fall for the 'sapphires of Tarth' line Jaime gave him to keep her as a hostage instead of rape/ kill her so greed is apparently enough to drive this guy to even take the vows of the Night's Watch to get his prey (Bran and Rickon).

If anyone still thinks this guy should live, remember this stuff. He's a bad man. :P

[Dany's Silver]

<snip>

If anyone still thinks this guy should live, remember this stuff. He's a bad man. :P

:agree: That fucker gave Brienne a wooden sword to fight a bear. He's direwolf food. :D

[NaarioDaharis]

I hope Locke kills Jon.

I loved Jon in the books.

Breath-voice on the show makes me hate him! He is a representation of our generation of entitled bastards. Not literal bastards, many of my generation are just A-holes and Jon is just like them. In the show.

Really, I don't understand the hate for LF's voice. Jon talks the same way. People just ignore it cause he has good hair.

Jon is a dick who really never blames himself for anything he does wrong and gets a hard-on from bossing people around. He is so ungrateful for his lot and needs to be taught a lesson.

Maybe, once he dies, a new actor will replace him so that I can like him again. Like, he'll go inside a different body warg-style and be portrayed by a more talented actor who doesn't also suck at sword fights.

That's my Jon rant. I feel better now.

[DaveyJoe]

Yeah Jon was my favorite POV in the books and I find him really underwhelming in the show. He's just not a great actor.

[Hard Hugh]

Yeah Jon was my favorite POV in the books and I find him really underwhelming in the show. He's just not a great actor.

I do think the last three episodes have been Kit harringtons strongest performances of the series. Maybe he took some lessons in between seasons

[Envie]

I do think the last three episodes have been Kit harringtons strongest performances of the series. Maybe he took some lessons in between seasons

It's funny how critical people on this forum are even though both Kit and Emelia get rave reviews from the unsullied viewers overall. I have to suspect book readers are much harder on the actors than most others.

Personally, I don't think Kit's that bad. I do believe he was cast more for his looks and charisma though. He's 'grown' into his part these past two seasons and so has Emelia Clarke. Neither were well known or highly acclaimed actors before they started GoT - I think we should give them a break... they don't have the huge resumes some of the more seasoned actors have.

[NaarioDaharis]

It's funny how critical people on this forum are even though both Kit and Emelia get rave reviews from the unsullied viewers overall. I have to suspect book readers are much harder on the actors than most others.

Personally, I don't think Kit's that bad. I do believe he was cast more for his looks and charisma though. He's 'grown' into his part these past two seasons and so has Emelia Clarke. Neither were well known or highly acclaimed actors before they started GoT - I think we should give them a break... they don't have the huge resumes some of the more seasoned actors have.

Millions of people like Justin Bieber too. The popcorn eating masses are not made of the most intelligent bunch. Most people accept anything the TV throws at them.

I think Kit Harington cares more about his body than the role.

Emilia was the secondish pick for Dany and is more suited for like, a King Kong movie or a sci-fi channel special, which made her great as Khaleesi, but now her range is starting to be stretched. I am holding out for her to the end of this season. If she gets the Unsullied to hate her, then I will consider her to have accomplished her role splendidly.

[Hard Hugh]

Millions of people like Justin Bieber too. The popcorn eating masses are not made of the most intelligent bunch. Most people accept anything the TV throws at them.

I think Kit Harington cares more about his body than the role.

Emilia was the secondish pick for Dany and is more suited for like, a King Kong movie or a sci-fi channel special, which made her great as Khaleesi, but now her range is starting to be stretched. I am holding out for her to the end of this season. If she gets the Unsullied to hate her, then I will consider her to have accomplished her role splendidly.

I think Emillia has been better then i expected. I think Kit has been improving. Also thats why you have young hot stars and lights out incredible character actors like Charles Dance to carry a scene. I think of all the shows in the world I have a hard time casting to many stones at this one for the casting choices which have been overall, spot on.

[six]

Oh come on, KH is doing fine. Jon is one of my favourites, and admittedly the first couple of seasons I thought he was underwhelming, but then again much of his storyline was robbed of the good bits and replaced with crap material e.g. having Ygritte do her baiting routine for 3 or 4 episodes, WHAT WAS THAT.

It got better though, both the writing and the acting, from about halfway season 3.

[NaarioDaharis]

That's true. The Wall has been boring in the show, while in the books it is some of the best material.

[I'll pay the iron price]

The scenes involving the wall will get better this season

[six]

The scenes involving the wall will get better this season

I already think it got a lot better. Even though I think the plot is a bit sloppy, I'm really enjoying Jon and the NW so far this season.

[DaveyJoe]

I do think the last three episodes have been Kit harringtons strongest performances of the series. Maybe he took some lessons in between seasons

I agree that he's been much better this season, I think he's improving over time. In the 3rd season he was tolerable, but overshadowed by Rose Leslie. In the second season he was pretty bad, and stuck out like a sore thumb in season one. He would have ruined the scene with Maester Aemon if Aemon wasn't so good. Kit's delivery of "you do NOT .. know!" is seriously cringeworthy.

It's funny how critical people on this forum are even though both Kit and Emelia get rave reviews from the unsullied viewers overall. I have to suspect book readers are much harder on the actors than most others.

Personally, I don't think Kit's that bad. I do believe he was cast more for his looks and charisma though. He's 'grown' into his part these past two seasons and so has Emelia Clarke. Neither were well known or highly acclaimed actors before they started GoT - I think we should give them a break... they don't have the huge resumes some of the more seasoned actors have.

I'm one of the biggest show apologists on the forum, but I know poor acting when I see it. I wish they had gone with their original choice of Harry Lloyd(Viserys) because he would have really brought that character's inner turmoil out. Instead they went with a pretty boy, and I think that storyline has suffered because of it. Yeah I get that the character is largely internal, but I think the same goes for Sansa, and Sophie Turner has done a much better job and playing that type of role convincingly. Kit's acting has seemed forched most of the time, although I do think he's been pretty good this season.

[I'll pay the iron price]

I think Owen Teale's (Alliser Thorne) return has helped alot.

The conflict between him and Jon Snow makes good TV.

I'm looking forward to seeing the raid on Crasters where Carl Tanner and his men are holed up.

Locke's introduction is a surprise though a welcome one as Noah Taylor is a great actor

[Ingelheim]

Jon Snow's lines and storyline in season 2 have been the worst writing this show has made. By far. Not even Charles Dance could do a good performance with them.

[DaveyJoe]

Only this forum would blame D&D for an actor's performance. There are plenty of cheesy lines in this show but the better actors deliver them well. Arya's putting Kit to shame, if he had to deliver the "one of these days I'm going ot put a sword through your eye and out the back of your skull" line it would've been a disaster.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Only this forum would blame D&D for an actor's performance. There are plenty of cheesy lines in this show but the better actors deliver them well. Arya's putting Kit to shame, if he had to deliver the "one of these days I'm going ot put a sword through your eye and out the back of your skull" line it would've been a disaster.

The writers and directors have a LOT of influence in the actor's performance. This week, Warner LA ran a HP marathon. Daniel Radcliffe was quite average in the first two movies: overreacting, speaking like he was reciting his lines. Then, Cuaron came along.

[DaveyJoe]

I understand that but Jon has been consistently weak throughout the first 3 seasons, and the show has used largely the same directors. Also, Jon's not the only one getting bad lines, but he's the one who always seems forced and unconvincing.

[six]

I understand that but Jon has been consistently weak throughout the first 3 seasons, and the show has used largely the same directors. Also, Jon's not the only one getting bad lines, but he's the one who always seems forced and unconvincing.

In the first 2 seasons yes, I agree. But as someone else pointed out his storyline in season 2 was crap, especially compared to what he had in the books. I think that once his storyline improved so did the acting. I think KH did really well this last episode.