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[Book Spoiler] Justice and Vengeance


MoIaF

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Aside from the awesome reveal at the end one of the themes of the episode was justice vs. revenge.



The opening scene of the episode is Dany taking over Meereen and answering "injustice with justice", however, it could also be considered an act of vengeance on Dany's part in response to the crucifixion of the slave children.



In King's Landing we have Tyrion's trial about to begin, this as well is a case where justice and vengeance are intertwined.



Finally, at the Wall Jon gathers volunteers to take down the mutineers at Craster's and not only eliminate them as a thread as they might align themselves with the Wildings but also the seek justice/revenge for the murder of Lord Commander Mormont.



What are your thoughts?


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The opening scene of the episode is Dany taking over Meereen and answering "injustice with justice", however, it could also be considered an act of vengeance on Dany's part in response to the crucifixion of the slave children.

What are your thoughts?

Having her survey her new realm and calmly listening to the screams of the crucified masters in the background was a nice touch. Very ... Targaryen. Dany is always most impressive when filled with wrath.

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I think it's a definite theme developing with Daeny that the two aren't so easily separated as people might think.

Honestly, we see it throughout the story. The implementation of justice in our modern world is suppose to be blind but even now with all our enlightenment that's a difficult standard to maintain and we don't always succeed at it.

In Westersos we see very little instances if any of justice being blind. Even Ned's beheading of the deserter is not really justice, Ned beheaded him because he broke the law. However, after what the poor man had seen, it was justifiable.

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Having her survey her new realm and calmly listening to the screams of the crucified masters in the background was a nice touch. Very ... Targaryen. Dany is always most impressive when filled with wrath.

She is, however, for all those people who yell whitewashing of her character in the show (I call BS on that) I thought it was a bit of a blackwashing. In the books Dany is a low more contrite about what happens and she definitely doesn't feel the constant confidence displayed by her TV show counterpart.

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Dany crucifying the slavers was pure vengeance. Jon wanting to march on Craster's was justice, as well as pragmatism. An interesting parallel if deliberate by the writers.

i agree with this. it's hard to sync things up in the books, but does dany crucifying the slaves happen at the time when jon executes slynt? that would be much more in line with the parallels that grrm likes to use.

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Dany crucifying the slavers was pure vengeance. Jon wanting to march on Craster's was justice, as well as pragmatism. An interesting parallel if deliberate by the writers.

Depends on the definition you use for justice. In one sense, they did get what they deserved...which is why I think it is an interesting set of story lines they are building. The punishment she gave them matched, exactly, the punshiment they meted out onto the slaves.

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The punishment matching the crime =/= justice. Especially when she has no idea how involved any of those men were or how they may have endorsed or argued against the crucifying of the slaves or how they treat their own slaves. A clear case of 2 wrongs don't make a right

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Dany crucifying the slavers was pure vengeance. Jon wanting to march on Craster's was justice, as well as pragmatism. An interesting parallel if deliberate by the writers.

Is it justice? Jon clearly says in the episode that they must avenge Mormont, how is that justice? Shouldn't the mutineers be tried before the punishment is dealt.

What Jon is doing is not very much different from what Dany is doing.

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Depends on the definition you use for justice. In one sense, they did get what they deserved...which is why I think it is an interesting set of story lines they are building. The punishment she gave them matched, exactly, the punshiment they meted out onto the slaves.

“Do we have your leave to take our vengeance against Ser Gregor, then?” Marq Piper asked the throne.

“Vengeance?” Ned said. “I thought we were speaking of justice. Burning Clegane’s fields and slaughtering his people will not restore the king’s peace, only your injured pride.” He glanced away before the young knight could voice his outraged protest, and addressed the villagers. “People of Sherrer, I cannot give you back your homes or your crops, nor can I restore your dead to life. But perhaps I can give you some small measure of justice, in the name of our king, Robert.”

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i agree with this. it's hard to sync things up in the books, but does dany crucifying the slaves happen at the time when jon executes slynt? that would be much more in line with the parallels that grrm likes to use.

As rewarding as the beheading of Slynt was, I wouldn't consider it justice. Did he get a trial, did he get a chance as Jon did when he attacked one of his superiors.

The mutineers' guilt isn't really in any doubt nor is it possible to try them. However, most importantly Jon merely uses revenge/justice as a rhetoric device (and secondary motive) to gather troops for what is an act of necessity first and foremost.

So, Jon didn't really mean what he said. I don't buy it, it was revenge and justice, that's the point, in many ways the two are intertwined.

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snip

I love Ned but he did behead a man without a trial. Now, that was the law, however, that man had a good reason to run away from the Wall after what he saw.

My point stand that vengeance and justice aren't as black and white as some people make them out to be.

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I think vengeance is actually a lot more personal/selfish. What Daenerys did was justice, with a huge serving of values dissonance.

Justice would be a swift execution. To the point and no dwelling on it. Anything that exceeds what is necessary (their death) is needlessly cruel and vindictive, since at that point you aren't interesting in serving fair justice, but satisfying your own want for vengeance and bloodshed.

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I think vengeance is actually a lot more personal/selfish. What Daenerys did was justice, with a huge serving of values dissonance.

She might well have actually thought it was justice.

It was a righteous sort of justice for Dany. In her mind she was getting justice for each of the children's that were crucified, however, there are elements of vengeance without the justice because of the manner in which the justice was dispense (i.e. and eye for an eye).

Also, Dany knew who the crucified GM were as we later learned.

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