[Book Spoiler] Justice and Vengeance

[MoIaF]

I don't deny that Jon is out for revenge. I merely stated that a trial would not be necessary in the course of justice and that the plan was more importantly pragmatic in its approach. Jon mixes justice and revenge all the time

Right, like I said there is a very blurred line between justice and revenge especially in ASOIAF.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Very Tywin by the Caesars, right?

Tywin did the 'kill em all' to the Rains, then all he had to so was pay a single minstrel to walk around after that. He didn't so a Dany and randomly kill a few of them then leave the rest to stew in resentment.

If you are going to be a tyrant, then don't muck around with half measures... but the bowl of honey is what made many a great Emperor - Ceasar Augustus, Alexander etc.

[SerArthurHeath]

That was my point! He also told Joffrey that you must pardon those who bend the knee too

[sj4iy]

They were Great Masters, there job was to be slavers. These weren't some innocent middle class merchants who got rounded up with the Great Masters.

And before anyone says anything Dany know they were GM as she comments on sending the bodies to the families later on.

It still doesn't mean that they were the ones who committed the atrocities. There are good and bad people in EVERY social class. There are evil slaves and good masters and vice-versa.

Indiscriminately picking out 163 people just to match the number of dead slave girls is NOT justice. It's vengeance, and vengeance is no way to rule any city. If she wanted justice, then she would have held trials and judged each Master for his own crimes and not the crimes of others.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

That was my point! He also told Joffrey that you must pardon those who bend the knee too

Ahh yep - "When a man is on his knees you must help him to his feet" I think the line was.

Joffrey replied with "A strong king must be bold!" then was sent to bed without any supper.

[SerArthurHeath]

And so begins the fall of Danaerys

[MoIaF]

It still doesn't mean that they were the ones who committed the atrocities. There are good and bad people in EVERY social class. There are evil slaves and good masters and vice-versa.

Indiscriminately picking out 163 people just to match the number of dead slave girls is NOT justice. It's vengeance, and vengeance is no way to rule any city. If she wanted justice, then she would have held trials and judged each Master for his own crimes and not the crimes of others.

I already asked this above but how was she to find impartial jurors or justices for these suppose trials?

[sj4iy]

I already asked this above but how was she to find impartial jurors or justices for these suppose trials?

If she wants to be Queen, then she should be the one judging these people (or she should appoint someone she trusts to do it). I completely understand that it's not a democracy, but she needs to learn to fairly apply punishment and mercy upon those who deserve it.

[SerArthurHeath]

To be fair, with trial by combat and no jury, the justice system in Westeros leaves a little to be desired. But trying to be a fair judge is one of the duties of the ruling class

[SerArthurHeath]

I imagine Selmy would be a fairly good judge, or would at least try to be

[MoIaF]

If she wants to be Queen, then she should be the one judging these people (or she should appoint someone she trusts to do it). I completely understand that it's not a democracy, but she needs to learn to fairly apply punishment and mercy upon those who deserve it.

So she should have had a sham trial because there is no way to prove anything one way or another vs. dispensing justice to 163 murdering slavers. Okay.

[SerArthurHeath]

Even with no jury and herself as a judge, I'm sure the Masters could try and defend themselves and witnesses could be found. Those who were genuinely not that bad would probably find newly freed slaves, or middle level citizens to back them up. I assume the actual crucifying was done by slaves or at least not nobles anyway so they would be a start as witnesses

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I think there was a plot hole in the last episode and it comes from them not following the books.

Barristan said in the show to Dany that they are her subjects however this is wrong as Dany initially didnt conquer Meereen to rule there she just conquered there to free slaves and take food for her children, the Meereenese were not Dany's subjects at this point they were enemies in war.

[sj4iy]

So she should have had a sham trial because there is no way to prove anything one way or another vs. dispensing justice to 163 murdering slavers. Okay.

A sham trial is better than no trial. And if she doesn't learn how to fairly judge people, then she will never become a good ruler.

[MoIaF]

A sham trial is better than no trial. And if she doesn't learn how to fairly judge people, then she will never become a good ruler.

We need a head shake emoticon, seriously.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

A sham trial is better than no trial. And if she doesn't learn how to fairly judge people, then she will never become a good ruler.

When overthrowing a set-in-stone civilization and culture, there are no trials. That doesnt make sense anyway. She has no judges, no council set up yet. She just got there, the masters did not give the children a trial, they just killed them for sport and to mess with Dany, that was the only purpose of killing the kids, to mess with Dany. So why should she show them mercy and give them all trials?

If everything was on the up and up and there were already trials for criminals/masters then she wouldnt even be there overthrowing them. There is no justice for the slaves, there is only slavery. The masters must answer for their actions, she is making them answer with minimal bloodshed.

[Mad Monkey]

I'm not sure that there is any value in a sham trial (seriously, does anyone think that Stalin's mock trials in the old USSR made a difference?) In fact they might even be worse since there is something dehumanizing and demeaning when the state forces someone to admit to something that they didn't do and then kills them.

That being said, I think it would have been a good idea for Dany to take the time to sort through the masters before she crucified 163 of them. It's not about justice vs. vengeance but about pragmatism. In the books she asks the masters to forfeit 163 of their number.

This creates an opportunity for the most opportunistic, powerful, and dangerous of the Great Masters to take 163 from lesser houses or their political rivals (who may not have even been in power or responsible for the child murders) and have them crucified instead. Among those who died may have even been masters who advocated surrendering to Daenerys.

If Dany had done the reaping, she would have had the opportunity not only to ascertain guilt for herself but to familiarize herself with the politics of Meereen and how the Great Masters are. It may be that there are some dissenting voices or (more realistically) some masters who are more amenable to the end of slavery than others. A Hizdahr zo Loraq figure – a slaver who has an interest in non- slavery-related enterprises – could be a useful tool in the revolution in a way that some of the more hardcore slavers who refuse to get involved in any other businesses wouldn’t be.

By killing 163 of the masters out of hand without finding this stuff out, Dany lost what could have been a priceless opportunity. If the show decides to retain the Queen of Meereen storyline it will be harder for her to

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I'm not sure that there is any value in a sham trial (seriously, does anyone think that Stalin's mock trials in the old USSR made a difference?) In fact they might even be worse since there is something dehumanizing and demeaning when the state forces someone to admit to something that they didn't do and then kills them.

That being said, I think it would have been a good idea for Dany to take the time to sort through the masters before she crucified 163 of them. It's not about justice vs. vengeance but about pragmatism. In the books she asks the masters to forfeit 163 of their number.

This creates an opportunity for the most opportunistic, powerful, and dangerous of the Great Masters to take 163 from lesser houses or their political rivals (who may not have even been in power or responsible for the child murders) and have them crucified instead. Among those who died may have even been masters who advocated surrendering to Daenerys.

If Dany had done the reaping, she would have had the opportunity not only to ascertain guilt for herself but to familiarize herself with the politics of Meereen and how the Great Masters are. It may be that there are some dissenting voices or (more realistically) some masters who are more amenable to the end of slavery than others. A Hizdahr zo Loraq figure – a slaver who has an interest in non- slavery-related enterprises – could be a useful tool in the revolution in a way that some of the more hardcore slavers who refuse to get involved in any other businesses wouldn’t be.

By killing 163 of the masters out of hand without finding this stuff out, Dany lost what could have been a priceless opportunity. If the show decides to retain the Queen of Meereen storyline it will be harder for her to

Those are good points, but I think the goal was to pick them randomly, just like they took 163 random kids. She is making a statement.

[ovis alba]

So why should she show them mercy and give them all trials?

Because she might not want to start of the "freeing" of the city with the same cruelty that she was actually fighting?

If you want a more just society, why not already start? Instate laws for the future of the city (or let the slaves instate them) and then judge the masters by these laws instead of randomly killing some of them to match the number that has been killed before.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Because she might not want to start of the "freeing" of the city with the same cruelty that she was actually fighting?

If you want a more just society, why not already start? Instate laws for the future of the city (or let the slaves instate them) and then judge the masters by these laws instead of randomly killing some of them to match the number that has been killed before.

Yeah I understand. She is trying to have a more just society after she gets there, I think she wanted to start on even ground. She hasn't continued killing since she started ruling. It's like that was just a way to get the playing field back to zero, then start ruling and changing things.