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Edmure v Robb Part 2: You'll hold what I tell you to hold!


danm_999

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I have to admit I've always had a soft spot for Edmure in my heart so I'm probably biased. In my opinion Edmure did everything he was told to do. The order of holding Riverrun can only be interpreted as keeping Tywin's army from marching to the West and cutting of Robbs retreat.


The order was not: "Hold the castle Riverrun and let the rest of the land fall in the hands of the enemy, if necessary." It was a smart thing to deny Tywin the crossing because with the information Edmure has at this point he is buying valuable time for Robb to do whatever he plans to do in the west (conquering castles and so on).



As far as i remember, Robb states (after his return to Roverrun) that he never had enough men to threaten Lannisport. But taking Lannisport was imo the only action that would have forced Tywin to return to the West. Robb stated how he could live of Tywin's lands while he was in the West - how do we know Tywin didn't simply plan to do the same and live of the lands of the Riverlands with his substantially larger army?



Tywin had to know that his army was needed some time to defend KL from Renly or Stannis. He would have never returned to the West unless Lannisport or Casterly Rock itself were in imminent danger (which they never were, even according to Robb).



In short: Edmure did his best in abusing a strong defensive position while having a much smaller army than Tywin. And this is what is expected of a battle commander. Maybe Robb should have kept a closer eye on Roose Bolton for wasting his valuable men instead of criticizing one of the few things that went right for him outside of his own battles...


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Although I strongly agree that Robb could have and should have given better and clearer orders, if edmure thought what he was doing was right, why does he speak only of glory? His motives here seem unclear

From a war perspective I think Tywin putting riverrun under siege would be perfect for Robb and the riverlanders

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Although I strongly agree that Robb could have and should have given better and clearer orders, if edmure thought what he was doing was right, why does he speak only of glory? His motives here seem unclear

From a war perspective I think Tywin putting riverrun under siege would be perfect for Robb and the riverlanders

I disagree. Edmure doesn't have the strength to break a siege and Tywin would be able to raid the Riverlands almost uncontested. Robb in the meanwhile would be forced to return to the Riverlands. And Tywin isn't the fool that Jaime was and wouldn't walk into a trap.

Edmures motives are quite clear: Defend the new kingdom of Robb.

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What I find telling is that every single one of the Riverlord commanders think that what Edmure did was a good move (even Blackwood and Bracken agree on it) we here nothing of any of them complaining that it doesn't make sense nor that it violates Robb's orders

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I disagree. Edmure doesn't have the strength to break a siege and Tywin would be able to raid the Riverlands almost uncontested. Robb in the meanwhile would be forced to return to the Riverlands. And Tywin isn't the fool that Jaime was and wouldn't walk into a trap.

Edmures motives are quite clear: Defend the new kingdom of Robb.

While Tywin is no fool should he put riverrun under siege I would question him. Riverrun is pretty big and I imagine could hold a large garrison. Say edmure holds onto 1000 of his best men. That leaves another 12000 men to defend against raids and harry tywins army. Furthermore Tywin would have to split his armies 3 ways, roughly just over 6000 in each camp. Robb would be delighted with this. Should he Come back you have Tywin tied up, too far away from KL and now also outnumbered. Even if he doesn't want a straight up battle against him Robb could snipe at him and break down his army

Can edmure hold onto riverrun for long? With a sizeable garrison I think so. Now he would have to get rid of the ssmallfolk unfortunately but I would think that Tywin would find it far harder to get supplies with a concerted effort against him so I don't think a prolonged siege would work and an assault would leave Tywin crippled.

But Tywin is no fool. He was on his way home and I believe riverrun was safe

And while I believe edmure did have good intentions, I also believe he was out for a bit of glory- who wants to be overshadowed the whole time? Robb's a better battle commander, the BF is a better warrior, cat is smarter, Lysa more crazy etc

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What I find telling is that every single one of the Riverlord commanders think that what Edmure did was a good move (even Blackwood and Bracken agree on it) we here nothing of any of them complaining that it doesn't make sense nor that it violates Robb's orders

None of them knew Robb's orders. They had all left for their homes when Robb commands Edmure to hold Riverrun. Also none of them told Edmure that stopping Tywin was a good move. They told him him that his battle plan was good (which it was). I guess they all also assumed that Edmure was following Robb's commands.

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I disagree. Edmure doesn't have the strength to break a siege and Tywin would be able to raid the Riverlands almost uncontested. Robb in the meanwhile would be forced to return to the Riverlands. And Tywin isn't the fool that Jaime was and wouldn't walk into a trap.

Edmures motives are quite clear: Defend the new kingdom of Robb.

Defend it by stopping an enemy from leaving Robb's Kingdom?? Lets be clear on one point - Tywin was not going to besiege Riverrun. Nobody even expects Tywin to besiege Riverrun, Even Edmure knows Tywin is not going to besiege RR, Even Catelyn who just came to RR knows Tywin is heading home. Besieging RR is a suicidal move.

Hence since RR was never under threat - Edmure was clearly not defending it. In his own words he was hunting for glory.

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Generally speaking I think people were unfair on Edmure in this instance, he is expected to hold Riverrun and unless this is told specifically to mean Castle only then it isn't unreasonable to presume it means strategically important positions in their area of authority

Eg Roose Bolton had some loose autonomy in holding his area around the Harrenhall area and his side of the river

Thing with this is that it's fine if things turn out great or they are saved but bad if the Same action causes a problem

In this case Robb should have told him he was planning to lure Tywin west, imagine Robb had no such ambush plan and Edmure stayed at Riverrun, Tywin marched west and Robb got sandwiched, trapped and defeated? Questions would be asked as to "why he didn't march out to try and stop him"

Imagine also if he didn't try and defend Riverlands and stayed holed up in his castles and Lannisters raided with impunity, public would hate him just like populace of salt pans hated the fort garrison. One thing we are learning about the north is that if you don't try to protect banner,and lands or small folk they won't care about you, even Robb saw that hence he let river lords like Marq Piper go back to their lands to defend them and Bran and Ser Rodrik went to lift siege of Torrhems Square

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I'm not sure what the big deal was. The Tyrells were the game changer, not Tywin at the battle of Blackwater. They were already on their way. When Robb formulated that plan he had no idea that the Tyrells would not be with Renly or join up with the Lannisters.



If anything Edmure saved Robbs life. Robb was sitting injured at the Crag having just lost a 1,000 of his 6k army and Tywin was coming home with 20k, which a 3rd was hosed and would have been able to pick up the survivors of the Battle of Oxcross. Robb was potentially in a lot of trouble.


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I'm not sure what the big deal was. The Tyrells were the game changer, not Tywin at the battle of Blackwater. They were already on their way. When Robb formulated that plan he had no idea that the Tyrells would not be with Renly or join up with the Lannisters.

If anything Edmure saved Robbs life. Robb was sitting injured at the Crag having just lost a 1,000 of his 6k army and Tywin was coming home with 20k, which a 3rd was hosed and would have been able to pick up the survivors of the Battle of Oxcross. Robb was potentially in a lot of trouble.

Good points, if Tyrells joined with Stannis, or Renly didn't try and usurp Stannis, a united Baratheon/Tyrell alliance would have taken KL whichever way Tywin went

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I'm not sure what the big deal was. The Tyrells were the game changer, not Tywin at the battle of Blackwater. They were already on their way. When Robb formulated that plan he had no idea that the Tyrells would not be with Renly or join up with the Lannisters.

If anything Edmure saved Robbs life. Robb was sitting injured at the Crag having just lost a 1,000 of his 6k army and Tywin was coming home with 20k, which a 3rd was hosed and would have been able to pick up the survivors of the Battle of Oxcross. Robb was potentially in a lot of trouble.

I doubt the Tyrells would have acted without Tywin. As it is they waited right until the last minute for Tywin(Stannis had nearly won) - seems like if Tywin had not turned up they might have even joined Stannis(wouldnt put it past the Tyrells).

Also Robb only meant to delay Tywin long enough for KL to fall - which means all he had to do was survive a few weeks or so. Not that tall an order if he had already scouted out the area and found good defensible spots(which according to the BF they had)

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It's worth noting that Edmure defense of the Fords only harmed Robb because of huge sheer bad luck. Tywin got the news of Stannis' attack at King's Landing three days after he started figthing at the fords. And he reached King's Landing just in time. If he had gotten there a day later he'd have found Stannis sitting on the Iron Throne.

If the messengers had gone there a day after, if after two days of fighting Edmure had decided to let them cross, if Edmure had organized another blockade on Tywin's way south,... then the Battle of the Fords would have benefited Robb's interests.

Meanwhile, if he messengers had run three days faster, then the news would have reached Tywin before reaching the fords. Then, Edmure's actions would have no influence at all in the outcome of the war.

Personally, I find that "bloodying Lord Tywin's nose" is more akin to irritating him than weakening him.

Killing hundred including Lord Lefford (a main bannerman and general) and Ser Robert Brax, capturing hostages such as Lyle Crakehall, hurting the Mountain rendering him slower, mining the morale of the Western soldiers, and eroding the Tywin's image as an undefeated commander. The Battle of the Fords did far more than "irritate" Tywin. It is undisputable that it "weakened" him.

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I doubt the Tyrells would have acted without Tywin. As it is they waited right until the last minute for Tywin(Stannis had nearly won) - seems like if Tywin had not turned up they might have even joined Stannis(wouldnt put it past the Tyrells).

Also Robb only meant to delay Tywin long enough for KL to fall - which means all he had to do was survive a few weeks or so. Not that tall an order if he had already scouted out the area and found good defensible spots(which according to the BF they had)

They didn't wait till the last minute, they were already out of the Reach and into the Riverlands before Tywin met up with them. Stannis spent two weeks at the siege of Stroms End and thanks to a magical shadow baby was able to take it months earlier surprising everyone. No one could have predicted that.

The Tyrells thought they had time on their side, as did Tywin at Harenhal, Tyrion and Kings Landing and I think even Cat mentions how long Storms End would take. Infact the Reach Lords who have first hand experience in besieging the place expected it to take much longer, they were taken unaware.

Mace still had 10k at Highgarden who had to travel to join up with the host at Bitterbridge, that host then moved into the Riverlands. They were only a day behind Stannis at Kings Landing, considering the distances involved they could not have been stalling.

Even if that is open to debate Robbs still had no way of knowing the Tyrells plans, he could not have possibly known that the Tyrells would not act.

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I think Martin put it in there to make this important part of the war murky and cause just this kind of confusion.

The status quo means for Edmure to continue following his orders to hold Riverrun. Robb's plan is clear, they meant to double-back on Tywin and block his passage back to King's Landing. It doesn't matter if Tywin knows the Westerlands because he doesn't know what Robb plans to do. You may know the interior of your home, but if you don't know that I mean to trap you in a room then I can still accomplish my goal. Same with Robb. He just needed to block Tywin long enough for King's Landing to fall.

I'm not sure where your getting that it was before the plan existed.

I don't think that was always the plan or else he would've told Edmure. What reason would he have not to trust Edmure with the plan?

And also, why did Robb go west in the first place? Just for kicks? No. He didn't want to attack Harrenhal because it would be suicide. He needed to get Tywin out of Harrenhal. So he sends Cat to try and get Renly to force Tywin out. But he can't count on that alone, so he goes west himself to force Tywin's hand. And the plan called for Edmure to hold Riverrun. Once he overruns the west he knows Tywin has to answer. But instead of risking that his plans could be intercepted he devises a plan that doesn't call on Edmure's involvement.

Even Cat doesn't worry about.Robb's safety when Tywin is trying to get to the west. And she worried constantly about Robb.

Stafford's was described as the bottom of the barrel from Lannisport. Where would this other host consist of; old women and babes at the breast? Tywin is no magician. And he has no crystal ball. He doesn't know what Robb's plans are or where Robb is going. Until he has that info he can't devise a plan.

I'm not saying he's an honest kid, it's right in the books.

He didn't have to sneak Jeyne in, he's the king. He used Cat's actions for two reasons. To show her that their actions were inspired by love and to reiterate just how damaging releasing Jaime was.

To claim that he was deceiving his mother for nefarious reasons is ludicrous.

I already explained the plan and Edmure's standing orders. And Robb wanted Tywin out of Harrenhal, where Tywin's position was too strong.

What we have is Tywin moving west and even Stannis knew this. It wasn't a secret. And Edmure and his lords wanting to pay Tywin back for what he did to their territory. So Edmure brings back the men he asked Robb to allow to leave Riverrun and changes Roose's orders while removing the garrison Robb left at the Twins. Edmure even went so far as changing strategy. Did Robb give him those kinds of power? And it backfired. Especially on Edmure himself, who lost his sister, his king, his ancestral home, and his freedom.

And Robb didn't use Cat's past actions to get what he wanted. He already had his bride. He's the king, he doesn't have to answer to Cat.

So what? Martyn is some demon? Wizard? He wasn't real?

The status quo didn't include Tywin marching. What? Robb has no men to block Tywin, no soldiers or man power, if he tries to leap back to his goat trail he would hav to beat Tywin to the GT, and seeing how Tywin was closer to it that is unlikely.

Wait are you saying Robb always planned to block Tywin? Because if so Edmure would have been told, if the plan exited. If not than him letting Tywin in doesn't make sense.

Your still not making sense, now you are saying Robb always wanted Tywin to go through, yet you say Robb didn't have the plan before. Seriously, this Tywin is coming through sound like the exact same thing. Your saying Robb already planned all this out yet then say he came up with it before hand, when did he do it?

Even his bannermen agreed with Edmure.

Why not? He has bannermen across the West who can tell him where he is going.

The fact his mother found her self deceive should tell you something.

He did get him out, now what? Robb wasn't anywhere near preparing to attack Tywin, he was assaulting the coast and Crag.

So now it is are Edmure fault? Are really claiming Martyn and the orders never exited?

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Yeah, but because of Robb and BF's poor communication skills, for all Edmure knows, Tywin crossing is fatal to Robb's plan.

Remember, Robb's objective at the time was to get Tywin out of Harrenhal. That's the reason that Cat goes to treat with Renly. But Robb can't depend on Renly doing his job for him. So attacking the west was a way to get Tywin out in the open. And if you can get him out of the Riverlands, even better. And, of course, Robb would have been looking out so that Tywin can't sneak up on him.

Party Pooper:

Roose didn't begin his full-on betrayal until after the Battle of the Blackwater. At which point Roose was all in with the Freys and Lannisters. By the time he meets Robb at the Twins it was too late for Robb to do anything about it.

And Robb's plan was to bring Tywin west and block him from returning to King's Landing, with favorable ground to hurt Tywin bad if he tried to force his way through.

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None of them knew Robb's orders. They had all left for their homes when Robb commands Edmure to hold Riverrun. Also none of them told Edmure that stopping Tywin was a good move. They told him him that his battle plan was good (which it was). I guess they all also assumed that Edmure was following Robb's commands.

Which was to guard his rear.

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Remember, Robb's objective at the time was to get Tywin out of Harrenhal. That's the reason that Cat goes to treat with Renly. But Robb can't depend on Renly doing his job for him. So attacking the west was a way to get Tywin out in the open. And if you can get him out of the Riverlands, even better. And, of course, Robb would have been looking out so that Tywin can't sneak up on him.

Your still not explain at all how Robb pre leaving did not tell Edmure. You say Robb would told him but still are no the idea he went West to get Tywin moving.

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I'm not sure what the big deal was. The Tyrells were the game changer, not Tywin at the battle of Blackwater. They were already on their way. When Robb formulated that plan he had no idea that the Tyrells would not be with Renly or join up with the Lannisters.

If anything Edmure saved Robbs life. Robb was sitting injured at the Crag having just lost a 1,000 of his 6k army and Tywin was coming home with 20k, which a 3rd was hosed and would have been able to pick up the survivors of the Battle of Oxcross. Robb was potentially in a lot of trouble.

Where you getting those figures from? I've never even heard of Robb losing 1k men in all the battles he'd been in. And there ain't many survivors of the battle at oxcross- look at davens host. And they weren't great to begin with. After a nightmare defeat I hardly think they're gonna be any better
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Which was to guard his rear.

According to Martyn Rivers. Yet Edmure never defends his actions to Robb saying that he was following orders. Robb himself says that his orders were to only hold RR - are you saying that Martyn Rivers knows Robb's orders to Edmure better Robb and Edmure??

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