Edmure v Robb Part 2: You'll hold what I tell you to hold!

[Wmarshal]

Are you saying Martyn Rivers just made that up??!?!

[I'm the Party Pooper]

Party Pooper:

Roose didn't begin his full-on betrayal until after the Battle of the Blackwater. At which point Roose was all in with the Freys and Lannisters. By the time he meets Robb at the Twins it was too late for Robb to do anything about it.

And Robb's plan was to bring Tywin west and block him from returning to King's Landing, with favorable ground to hurt Tywin bad if he tried to force his way through.

Cam you kindly provide me references I can deal with? I suck in memory and can't remember if black water happened before or after Roose Bolton got to Harrenhal.

I believe that his treachery began slightly before that, based on the fact he had northeners infiltrated into Harrenhal and Tywyin "casually" left back the only company among his ones that he could depart with and that would fit cloak turning. It's an opinion that can't be proved and disproven, I know, but I somewhat usually think like this.

[Game Of Thrones]

Cam you kindly provide me references I can deal with? I suck in memory and can't remember if black water happened before or after Roose Bolton got to Harrenhal.

I believe that his treachery began slightly before that, based on the fact he had northeners infiltrated into Harrenhal and Tywyin "casually" left back the only company among his ones that he could depart with and that would fit cloak turning. It's an opinion that can't be proved and disproven, I know, but I somewhat usually think like this.

No, Roose was keeping his options open but he didn't betray Robb until his defeat was manifest. Tywin probably left Lorch and the Mummers in Harrenhal as they were the worst soldiers and he took the best to defend KL.

[Trigger Warning]

Robb's guilting him into marrying the Frey.

Had Edmure just sat in Riverrun and had Tywin went West and smashed Robb then poor old Radmure would still probably be blamed.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

No, Roose was keeping his options open but he didn't betray Robb until his defeat was manifest. Tywin probably left Lorch and the Mummers in Harrenhal as they were the worst soldiers and he took the best to defend KL.

Your "no" is based on which evidence?

Is your an opinion or are you openly denying my opinion based on textual proof?

I'm not so much informed to sustain a debate here, I must say. And it would be off topic in this thread. So I would only like to know whether u feel very much secure into your own statement or not.

[Talleyrand]

Where you getting those figures from? I've never even heard of Robb losing 1k men in all the battles he'd been in.

I think the 1k men lost he's referring to might be the Freys who were no longer with him

[Frey Pie]

I think the 1k men lost he's referring to might be the Freys who were no longer with him

Spot on. Sound

[The Fallen]

I have to admit I've always had a soft spot for Edmure in my heart so I'm probably biased. In my opinion Edmure did everything he was told to do. The order of holding Riverrun can only be interpreted as keeping Tywin's army from marching to the West and cutting of Robbs retreat.

The order was not: "Hold the castle Riverrun and let the rest of the land fall in the hands of the enemy, if necessary." It was a smart thing to deny Tywin the crossing because with the information Edmure has at this point he is buying valuable time for Robb to do whatever he plans to do in the west (conquering castles and so on).

As far as i remember, Robb states (after his return to Roverrun) that he never had enough men to threaten Lannisport. But taking Lannisport was imo the only action that would have forced Tywin to return to the West. Robb stated how he could live of Tywin's lands while he was in the West - how do we know Tywin didn't simply plan to do the same and live of the lands of the Riverlands with his substantially larger army?

Tywin had to know that his army was needed some time to defend KL from Renly or Stannis. He would have never returned to the West unless Lannisport or Casterly Rock itself were in imminent danger (which they never were, even according to Robb).

In short: Edmure did his best in abusing a strong defensive position while having a much smaller army than Tywin. And this is what is expected of a battle commander. Maybe Robb should have kept a closer eye on Roose Bolton for wasting his valuable men instead of criticizing one of the few things that went right for him outside of his own battles...

Robb didn't go west simply to conquer castles. He went west to force Tywin's hand.

And the Riverlands had been pillaged and burned by Tywin himself, so what would he have lived off of?

And Tywin was going west. Tyrion even confirms it. Tywin gambled that he could go west, beat Robb and get back to King's Landing in time to save it from a Stannis attack.

[Wmarshal]

And went to do that, why did he not tell Edmure, you say he would, but he didn't .

[The Fallen]

Generally speaking I think people were unfair on Edmure in this instance, he is expected to hold Riverrun and unless this is told specifically to mean Castle only then it isn't unreasonable to presume it means strategically important positions in their area of authority

Eg Roose Bolton had some loose autonomy in holding his area around the Harrenhall area and his side of the river

Thing with this is that it's fine if things turn out great or they are saved but bad if the Same action causes a problem

In this case Robb should have told him he was planning to lure Tywin west, imagine Robb had no such ambush plan and Edmure stayed at Riverrun, Tywin marched west and Robb got sandwiched, trapped and defeated? Questions would be asked as to "why he didn't march out to try and stop him"

Imagine also if he didn't try and defend Riverlands and stayed holed up in his castles and Lannisters raided with impunity, public would hate him just like populace of salt pans hated the fort garrison. One thing we are learning about the north is that if you don't try to protect banner,and lands or small folk they won't care about you, even Robb saw that hence he let river lords like Marq Piper go back to their lands to defend them and Bran and Ser Rodrik went to lift siege of Torrhems Square

The problem isn't what constitutes "hold Riverrun", it's that Edmure knew Tywin was heading west. Why keep Tywin inside the Riverlands?

And part of the reason for Robb heading west was to get Tywin out of Harrenhal and preferably out of the Riverlands.

[Wmarshal]

To stop him. You say logic should be involve yet ignore how letting him through traps Robb.

Then why not tell Edmure? And Again, do you call Martyn a liar?

[The Fallen]

They didn't wait till the last minute, they were already out of the Reach and into the Riverlands before Tywin met up with them. Stannis spent two weeks at the siege of Stroms End and thanks to a magical shadow baby was able to take it months earlier surprising everyone. No one could have predicted that.

The Tyrells thought they had time on their side, as did Tywin at Harenhal, Tyrion and Kings Landing and I think even Cat mentions how long Storms End would take. Infact the Reach Lords who have first hand experience in besieging the place expected it to take much longer, they were taken unaware.

Mace still had 10k at Highgarden who had to travel to join up with the host at Bitterbridge, that host then moved into the Riverlands. They were only a day behind Stannis at Kings Landing, considering the distances involved they could not have been stalling.

Even if that is open to debate Robbs still had no way of knowing the Tyrells plans, he could not have possibly known that the Tyrells would not act.

No one is saying that the Tyrells stalled. But rather that they went to the Riverlands and then had to wait on Tywin before heading to King's Landing.

And those actions lend credence to the idea that the Tyrells would not have acted alone in saving the city.

Otherwise they could have gone straight to King's Landing and caught Stannis up against the river waiting on his fleet.

So no Tywin, no Tyrells. And Tywin out west means he can't link up with the Tyrells ans Stannis takes King's Landing. That's good for Robb.

But Tywin stopped at the fords means that he gets the message and links up with the Tyrells, which is bad luck for Robb.

But let's go with your scenario; that the Tyrells would have acted alone. So they're at Tumbler's Falls waiting for Tywin and Tywin never shows. Now they've missed their opportunity to attack Stannis before King's Landing falls. Which means they now have to siege the Red Keep. It looks like Robert's Rebellion part deux. And we know how that ended.

[The Fallen]

WMarshall:

You're all over the place with your posts.

This what I've been saying, it has never changed:

Robb's objective at this time is to get Tywin out of Harrenhal. He doesn't want to attack Harrenhal and give Tywin the advantage, but he knows if he does nothing the men in his army will start to leave. So he makes the decision to go west in order to force Tywin out of Harrenhal.

It is my belief that his plan to block Tywin was devised while Robb was out west. What I said in my other post was that if Robb had devised the plan before leaving he would have told Edmure.

As far as the order to guard his rear, I think that GRRM uses it to add confusion around Robb Stark and his army, and it worked.

[The Fallen]

Cam you kindly provide me references I can deal with? I suck in memory and can't remember if black water happened before or after Roose Bolton got to Harrenhal.

I believe that his treachery began slightly before that, based on the fact he had northeners infiltrated into Harrenhal and Tywyin "casually" left back the only company among his ones that he could depart with and that would fit cloak turning. It's an opinion that can't be proved and disproven, I know, but I somewhat usually think like this.

Roose takes Harrenhal after Tywin tries to head west and before the Blackwater. Edmure ordered him to take it. Roose even states that it will be a bloody business, but if his grace commands it then he'll oblige. Roose was basically covering his ass in case it turned into a failure.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

But let's go with your scenario; that the Tyrells would have acted alone. So they're at Tumbler's Falls waiting for Tywin and Tywin never shows. Now they've missed their opportunity to attack Stannis before King's Landing falls. Which means they now have to siege the Red Keep. It looks like Robert's Rebellion part deux. And we know how that ended.

Why do you keep on insisting that they are waiting and would not have acted without Tywin?

They have turned Stannis down, twice, they have killed Florent men rather than let them join up with Stannis. Littlefinger tells us in the first book that Tyrell would go to war rather than see Stannis as king which is proved to be 100% correct by the Tyrells actions, we are told by Olenna how much getting a Grandson on the Throne meant to Mace. They have took their 60k men out of the Reach and onto the edge of the Blackwater without Tywin being there. All the evidence in the books suggests that they would have acted with or without Tywin.

[The Fallen]

Are you saying Martyn Rivers just made that up??!?!

This is classic right here.

I said Martin, not Martyn.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

Roose takes Harrenhal after Tywin tries to head west and before the Blackwater. Edmure ordered him to take it. Roose even states that it will be a bloody business, but if his grace commands it then he'll oblige. Roose was basically covering his ass in case it turned into a failure.

Thank You, that was the most kind :-D

[The Fallen]

Why do you keep on insisting that they are waiting and would not have acted without Tywin?

They have turned Stannis down, twice, they have killed Florent men rather than let them join up with Stannis. Littlefinger tells us in the first book that Tyrell would go to war rather than see Stannis as king which is proved to be 100% correct by the Tyrells actions, we are told by Olenna how much getting a Grandson on the Throne meant to Mace. They have took their 60k men out of the Reach and onto the edge of the Blackwater without Tywin being there. All the evidence in the books suggests that they would have acted with or without Tywin.

I quoted the book in a previous post. And the quote stated that they waited for Tywin. Not that they arrived simultaneously. That they waited. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

But let's go with your scenario. Tywin is in the west fighting Robb and can't meet the Tyrells. This means that Stannis has taken King's Landing. Will the Tyrells lay siege to the Red Keep?

[Wmarshal]

I was speaking to Barty and his "??"

As you say Robb came up with it late, when is later? Because later is in the West, you are stating Robb came up with it there and then, so what was he doing marching there from RR, and what was he planning to begin with? Because Tywin marching is a given, so Robb would have to thought of that before hand. Those if Edmure was just suppose to sit on his hands, wouldn't Robb tell him?

And again I ask, what are you trying to say of Martyn? You say George put him there to confuse us, but that is like saying it was apart of Cat imagination.

[Ramsay Gimp]

What I find telling is that every single one of the Riverlord commanders think that what Edmure did was a good move (even Blackwood and Bracken agree on it) we here nothing of any of them complaining that it doesn't make sense nor that it violates Robb's orders

Agreed.