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Edmure v Robb Part 2: You'll hold what I tell you to hold!


danm_999

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Yes Tywin has experience but his record isn't incredible. He had a huge advantage for the Reyne Tarbeck rebellion, during Roberts all he did was sack a city, his fleet was burnt during the Greyjoy rebellion etc. He is a very competent general but I believe Robb has a dash of brilliance which Tywin doesn't.

http://www.historyofwesteros.com/concarolinas-westerlands-reading/

Maybe this will change your mind.

It looks like that the Reynes/Tarbacks were outnumbered, but only because Tywin prepared carefully and caught them by surprise.

Also, the flooding of Castamere sure looks like a mild streak of brilliance. No one else seems to have ever thought of it.

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http://www.historyofwesteros.com/concarolinas-westerlands-reading/

Maybe this will change your mind.

It looks like that the Reynes/Tarbacks were outnumbered, but only because Tywin prepared carefully and caught them by surprise.

Also, the flooding of Castamere sure looks like a mild streak of brilliance. No one else seems to have ever thought of it.

Well look who's back. And without breaking a stride. Nice to see you posting again.

I thought the flooding was anti-climactic. I much would have preferred the ending to have happened in hand-to-hand combat.

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This brings up more questions. That chapter lasts about a week. But the day Edmure leaves is the day they get the news about Storm's End surrendering to Stannis. It's possible that a raven and then a rider could alert Robb that Tywin is heading west. Which would allow Robb to plan for Tywin's arrival.

So the question becomes, when did Robb attack the Crag? Did it happen simultaneously with Edmure's battle? Did Robb attack the Crag, but leave scouts to alert him if Tywin showed up in the west? Did he wait for Tywin, hear that Tywin had been thwarted, and then attack the Crag?

i remember a timeline that somebody put together that stated that the Battle of the Crag was a month after the Battle of the Fords which makes sense , why would Robb attack the Crag when he has to be on a constant look out for Tywin returning West. It's not a matter of if Tywin comes West but when. Tywin is involved in a massive war with several fronts that could last for months or years , there is no way he can allow Robb to have free rein the West when Tywin is going to need the resources of the West for his war. The Vale , the Tyrells , Dorne and the Iron Islands and even the Free Cities are all wild cards to get involved in the War of the Five Kings so Robb has a pretty good idea he will be seeing Tywin coming West sooner than later. After the Battle of the Fords Robb no long has to worry about Tywin coming West and is free to attack The Crag.

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Next we have the matter of time. Time was on Tywin's side when the plan was conceived, with Stannis at Storm's End potentially for -years-, but certainly months. Even if you justify it with hindsight again, in that Stannis used an unpredictable assassination method to take the castle, Tywin's presence isn't even necessary to save King's Landing. The Tyrells outgun Stannis' army themselves, and have all the same elements of surprise on their side. Even if they don't move on King's Landing, too wimpy to act without daddy Tywin holding their hands and stealing all their glory for the Blackwater victory, King's Landing falling doesn't end the war. Stannis is more uncompromising than Tywin ever was, and Robb clearly states he's not giving up his crown. What's more, the Lannisters aren't even done, not by a long shot. They still have Tommen, and Tywin now lacks the burden of protecting King's Landing, and can take all the time he needs starving out Robb's position (because he has a ton more men and can reliably besiege him).

Do they have Tommen? As far as I remember Tommen was hiding in Rosby which is a pretty close to Kings Landing and well within the grasp of Stannis if he had taken Kings Landing . Myrcella was a hostage in Dorne , Joffrey ,Tyrion and Cresie would be captured or dead in Kings Landing and Jaimie was somewhere in the Riverlands in constant mortal danger. Tywin whole family would be either dead or captured or in mortal danger and his allies would be thinking of abandoning him and his enemies would be sharpening their knives. I know that Prince Doran has a huge plan to ally himself to Dany but would he pass up the chance to attack the Lannisters if they showed too much weakness?

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i remember a timeline that somebody put together that stated that the Battle of the Crag was a month after the Battle of the Fords which makes sense , why would Robb attack the Crag when he has to be on a constant look out for Tywin returning West. It's not a matter of if Tywin comes West but when. Tywin is involved in a massive war with several fronts that could last for months or years , there is no way he can allow Robb to have free rein the West when Tywin is going to need the resources of the West for his war. The Vale , the Tyrells , Dorne and the Iron Islands and even the Free Cities are all wild cards to get involved in the War of the Five Kings so Robb has a pretty good idea he will be seeing Tywin coming West sooner than later. After the Battle of the Fords Robb no long has to worry about Tywin coming West and is free to attack The Crag.

I read it as well, it didn't make sense, word Robb was marching to the Crag happened when the fords began.
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I read it as well, it didn't make sense, word Robb was marching to the Crag happened when the fords began.

Just because he was marching to the Crag when the Battle of the Ford was happening does not mean the timeline does not make sense.

Laying siege to a castle takes a while . Robb needed to get his forces in place and prepare siege equipment . A month is a reasonable amount of time to march to the castle and plan and execute the siege.

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Do they have Tommen? As far as I remember Tommen was hiding in Rosby which is a pretty close to Kings Landing and well within the grasp of Stannis if he had taken Kings Landing . Myrcella was a hostage in Dorne , Joffrey ,Tyrion and Cresie would be captured or dead in Kings Landing and Jaimie was somewhere in the Riverlands in constant mortal danger. Tywin whole family would be either dead or captured or in mortal danger and his allies would be thinking of abandoning him and his enemies would be sharpening their knives. I know that Prince Doran has a huge plan to ally himself to Dany but would he pass up the chance to attack the Lannisters if they showed too much weakness?

Can't say I can speak for the rest of that, but Rosby would rely entirely on Tommen being betrayed from within the castle, and by the non-rabble guardsmen that Tyrion left him with. Stannis holds only the south bank of the Blackwater, so the Goldroad is clear of all opposition. What's more, the only person who even knows the 'arrangements' that would be made for Tommen's safety in the event of the battle being lost is Bywater. Tyrion quizzes him on it, and his response is 'you commanded me not to tell you'. So, there's only one man who knows the plans to spirit Tommen away from Rosby to safety in the event of defeat, and he died well before Tywin and the Tyrells showed up (reasonably a casualty in a non-Battle of the Fords universe where Stannis wins at KL). Stannis is notoriously not the type to reward blatant betrayal, so why would Tommen's guards sell him out instead of getting him to a guy who established 'A Lannister pays his debts' as unofficial house words?

And yeah, obviously the Lannisters would have been in a bad spot if Stannis won at King's Landing. Dorne though is half of Westeros away, and I sincerely doubt Doran's going to march through a warzone to reach the West and attack Tywin. As well, what allies? The Lannisters have no allies. Their own bannermen are their only forces pretty much, and unlike Robb, Tywin whipped his into line years and years ago. If the Tyrells are going to hop aboard (assuming they wuss out from intercepting Stannis at the Blackwater, which I really doubt, as they're total glory hogs and it was an easy fight to win), they'll hop aboard because they don't want Stannis and his Florents taking power, and the Lannisters still have a viable king to offer them.

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Just because he was marching to the Crag when the Battle of the Ford was happening does not mean the timeline does not make sense.

Laying siege to a castle takes a while . Robb needed to get his forces in place and prepare siege equipment . A month is a reasonable amount of time to march to the castle and plan and execute the siege.

They took it in one night.

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Can't say I can speak for the rest of that, but Rosby would rely entirely on Tommen being betrayed from within the castle, and by the non-rabble guardsmen that Tyrion left him with. Stannis holds only the south bank of the Blackwater, so the Goldroad is clear of all opposition. What's more, the only person who even knows the 'arrangements' that would be made for Tommen's safety in the event of the battle being lost is Bywater. Tyrion quizzes him on it, and his response is 'you commanded me not to tell you'. So, there's only one man who knows the plans to spirit Tommen away from Rosby to safety in the event of defeat, and he died well before Tywin and the Tyrells showed up (reasonably a casualty in a non-Battle of the Fords universe where Stannis wins at KL). Stannis is notoriously not the type to reward blatant betrayal, so why would Tommen's guards sell him out instead of getting him to a guy who established 'A Lannister pays his debts' as unofficial house words?

And yeah, obviously the Lannisters would have been in a bad spot if Stannis won at King's Landing. Dorne though is half of Westeros away, and I sincerely doubt Doran's going to march through a warzone to reach the West and attack Tywin. As well, what allies? The Lannisters have no allies. Their own bannermen are their only forces pretty much, and unlike Robb, Tywin whipped his into line years and years ago. If the Tyrells are going to hop aboard (assuming they wuss out from intercepting Stannis at the Blackwater, which I really doubt, as they're total glory hogs and it was an easy fight to win), they'll hop aboard because they don't want Stannis and his Florents taking power, and the Lannisters still have a viable king to offer them.

Rosby was a long way from any Lannister forces and it would have been likely that somebody would have betrayed Tommen to Stannis.

Stannis would have given a Lordship to somebody who gave him the heir to the Iron Throne (or King if Joffrey was dead.)

Mace Tyrell is the most cautious commander in history , if there was any chance that he could lose he would not have even considered attacking Stannis. The Tyrells have some of the most powerful bannermen in the Seven kingdoms and they have to be overly careful because any slip up and they could be facing civil war in the Reach.

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Yes but that does not tell you how long it took them to get to the Crag and get their forces ready for the siege and prepare siege equipment.

I think the Crag was picked because of the lack of preparation needed to take it as it is more of a ruin than a castle and is lightly garrisoned. I'm also pretty confident that it does not take a month to ride from Ashemark to the Crag.

And why would Robb head further towards the Coast if he knew his plan had failed?

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Mace Tyrell is the most cautious commander in history , if there was any chance that he could lose he would not have even considered attacking Stannis. The Tyrells have some of the most powerful bannermen in the Seven kingdoms and they have to be overly careful because any slip up and they could be facing civil war in the Reach.

If that was the case then the Tyrells would never have joined Renly in the first place, or put a great many Reach men to death before they could join Stannis. He has actively gone out of his way to oppose Stannis as King, a more cautious man would have just sat on the fence.

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Yes but that does not tell you how long it took them to get to the Crag and get their forces ready for the siege and prepare siege equipment.

there a all horse force, they used no siege equipment, they had none, they relied on climbing. The idea it took them a month to get there and get started is quiet bold.
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I think the Crag was picked because of the lack of preparation needed to take it as it is more of a ruin than a castle and is lightly garrisoned. I'm also pretty confident that it does not take a month to ride from Ashemark to the Crag.

And why would Robb head further towards the Coast if he knew his plan had failed?

where does it say that the Crag is a ruin?

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Rosby was a long way from any Lannister forces and it would have been likely that somebody would have betrayed Tommen to Stannis.

Stannis would have given a Lordship to somebody who gave him the heir to the Iron Throne (or King if Joffrey was dead.)

Mace Tyrell is the most cautious commander in history , if there was any chance that he could lose he would not have even considered attacking Stannis. The Tyrells have some of the most powerful bannermen in the Seven kingdoms and they have to be overly careful because any slip up and they could be facing civil war in the Reach.

Stannis Baratheon is the last man that offers lordships like that. Mace Tyrell is never mentioned as cautious, instead a man who sees himself a brilliant commander. There is no chance he would lose to Stannis, He it outnumbers him, Mace was prepared to head to KL, his ships were ready to go when Tywin showed. Stannis is the last king he would want, it means his head and his family removal. The Reach powerful ords are mostly his relatives, only th small lords have that much beef with him.

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If that was the case then the Tyrells would never have joined Renly in the first place, or put a great many Reach men to death before they could join Stannis. He has actively gone out of his way to oppose Stannis as King, a more cautious man would have just sat on the fence.

Joining Renly made perfect sense. The Reach plus the Stormlords gave them an overwhelming advantage over any other force. if it was not for the shadowbaby they would have destroyed Stannis with ease and had no problem taking Kings Landing.

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Joining Renly made perfect sense. The Reach plus the Stormlords gave them an overwhelming advantage over any other force. if it was not for the shadowbaby they would have destroyed Stannis with ease and had no problem taking Kings Landing.

They still outnumber Stannis and can beat him with ease.
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