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Edmure v Robb Part 2: You'll hold what I tell you to hold!


danm_999

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Because Edmure probably wouldn't do it, something Brynden would told him. And lets look at the fact Robb did not even know Stannis was going to Kl till after Edmure set out for the Fords.

Edmure seems like a nice guy. The kind of guy that would actually do it.

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And lastly, if Tywin hadn't made it to the rendezvous point, were the Tyrells going to still march on a Stannis-controlled King's Landing and lay siege to the Red Keep, a la Robert's Rebellion?

From what we are told from Olenna Redwyne and their actions towards Forent men at Bitterbridge then yes they would have.

But ultimately it doesn't matter as Robb does not know what they would or would not have done so his plan to delay Tywin is ultimately pointless.

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Because Edmure probably wouldn't do it, something Brynden would told him. And lets look at the fact Robb did not even know Stannis was going to Kl till after Edmure set out for the Fords.

Robb knew just like everybody else in Westeroes that Stannis was going to be going to Kings Landing . He wanted to be King so he needed to take Kings Landing to claim his throne. What he did not know just like everybody else was when would Stannis be going to Kings Landing.

He could lay siege to Storms End for a month or a year or he could decide to give up the siege and head to Kings Landing after only a day.

Tywin was counting on Storms End holding out for a good long while but he knew that there was a chance that Stannis would be attacking Kings Landing any day so he knew he had to finish Robb quickly to get back in time to help Kings landing and he may have made a mistake because of that urgency

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Robb knew just like everybody else in Westeroes that Stannis was going to be going to Kings Landing . He wanted to be King so he needed to take Kings Landing to claim his throne. What he did not know just like everybody else was when would Stannis be going to Kings Landing.

He could lay siege to Storms End for a month or a year or he could decide to give up the siege and head to Kings Landing after only a day.

Tywin was counting on Storms End holding out for a good long while but he knew that there was a chance that Stannis would be attacking Kings Landing any day so he knew he had to finish Robb quickly to get back in time to help Kings landing and he may have made a mistake because of that urgency

After cat sent him a messenger, a quoted that a while ago. Stannis was besieging SE, he wasn't marching on KL. SE would hold for a year and some change, Stannis himself proved that. Stannis is Stannis because he doesn't quiet when he as something to do, that is a fact everyone knows of Stannis. Robb Stark didn't know Stannis was marching to KL till after his mother sent the message.

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From what we are told from Olenna Redwyne and their actions towards Forent men at Bitterbridge then yes they would have.

But ultimately it doesn't matter as Robb does not know what they would or would not have done so his plan to delay Tywin is ultimately pointless.

Lets say the Tyrells march on Kings Landing without any communication with Tywin Lannister. Why would Tywin automatically assume that they are on his side and not assume that they are going to do what Stannis wants to do and claim the throne for themselves? Tywin is likely to attack the Tyrells from the rear just as he attacked Stannis because he is going to assume they are his enemy and they are trying to take the Iron Throne. Without an alliance with Tywin the Tyrells are taking a big risk . They are all alone in this war and when they attack Stannis they are going to be very vulnerable to an attack from the rear. What happens if the Vale joins the Riverlands and Robb and they all attack the Tyrells and crush them against the walls of Kings Landing.

Before you say that it's not a realistic situation anything is possible in wartime and the Tyrells cannot and will not risk thier control the Reach unless they are very sure they are on the winning side.

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Lets say the Tyrells march on Kings Landing without any communication with Tywin Lannister. Why would Tywin automatically assume that they are on his side and not assume that they are going to do what Stannis wants to do and claim the throne for themselves? Tywin is likely to attack the Tyrells from the rear just as he attacked Stannis because he is going to assume they are his enemy and they are trying to take the Iron Throne. Without an alliance with Tywin the Tyrells are taking a big risk . They are all alone in this war and when they attack Stannis they are going to be very vulnerable to an attack from the rear. What happens if the Vale joins the Riverlands and Robb and they all attack the Tyrells and crush them against the walls of Kings Landing.

Before you say that it's not a realistic situation anything is possible in wartime and the Tyrells cannot and will not risk thier control the Reach unless they are very sure they are on the winning side.

Because by the time anyone knew they were coming, say if Tywin was gone by this time, Mace coming is as unknown as Tywin's coming. As to him attacking him in the rear, he had outriders who would tell Tywin he was with Joffrey. How? hey outnumber Stannis in everyway. Mace's outriders can tell Mace if Tywin is coming to them,and they can talk, also, Mace's host was at the rush with ships, Tywin has none to catch him if Mace simple goes. How fast you think the Vale can assemble army, cross the rivers and race to KL without anyone knowing they are mobilizing? I think lighting speed. Oh my god, now Robb can rush from the Crag to KL? Amazing! That is unrealistic, Mace was at the rush, and all this could happen even with Tywin. They are the winning team, Stannis can't beat them.

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After cat sent him a messenger, a quoted that a while ago. Stannis was besieging SE, he wasn't marching on KL. SE would hold for a year and some change, Stannis himself proved that. Stannis is Stannis because he doesn't quiet when he as something to do, that is a fact everyone knows of Stannis. Robb Stark didn't know Stannis was marching to KL till after his mother sent the message.

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Nobody knew how long Storms End would hold out. It could be a day a week or a year. But one thing everybody knew is that once Storms End fell Stannis was heading to Kings Landing . It was a 100% chance that Stannis would be marching on Kings Landing. Robb knew it, Tywin knew it and Edmure should have known it.

Stannis already proved it can hold for a year. After he took SE, which without SB would to anyone's mind take a year.
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Lets say the Tyrells march on Kings Landing without any communication with Tywin Lannister. Why would Tywin automatically assume that they are on his side and not assume that they are going to do what Stannis wants to do and claim the throne for themselves? Tywin is likely to attack the Tyrells from the rear just as he attacked Stannis because he is going to assume they are his enemy and they are trying to take the Iron Throne. Without an alliance with Tywin the Tyrells are taking a big risk . They are all alone in this war and when they attack Stannis they are going to be very vulnerable to an attack from the rear. What happens if the Vale joins the Riverlands and Robb and they all attack the Tyrells and crush them against the walls of Kings Landing.

Before you say that it's not a realistic situation anything is possible in wartime and the Tyrells cannot and will not risk thier control the Reach unless they are very sure they are on the winning side.

Tywin is at Harenhall when negotiations are settled with the Tyrells, he is aware of what is happening.

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Ah, the Tyrells.

I've never actually doubted that the BF was right to think Tywin joining the Tyrells was decisive. You wouldn't wait around for an army you don't need. The reason for the Tyrell attitude was probably that their position was weaker than people usually assume.

Mace may have had 70,000 men on paper, but he couldn't necessarily depend on most of them to fight Stannis. In effect many of Mace's own lesser lords had rebelled against his family. At Storm's End 4/5 of the Reach/Stormlander cavalry went over to Stannis. Those knights were the lords of the foot left at Bitterbridge (the poorer/weaker part of the army). So in a fight with Stannis their loyalty couldn't be counted on and some had probably already decided to go home anyway.

There would be logistical as well as political problems. I suspect many were not barged down the river either, as that would take an awful lot of barges.

The battle may, in hindsight, have looked easy, but Mace and his bannermen didn't know they could catch Stannis unawares, or that LF would come up Renly's Ghost.

Furthermore, Mace and his bannermen probably wanted certainty about their rapprochement with the lannisters before taking the drastic gamble of trying to catch Stannis in the rear. Tywin's personal assurance was possibly needed, to stiffen the resolve of the bannermen, as much as Mace. After all, they were contemplating fighting for a king they'd previously been in open rebellion against.

For these reasons waiting for Tywin to arrive and confirm the LF proposal, and supplement the army with 20,000 or so fully reliable troops, made sense.

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I've never actually doubted that the BF was right to think Tywin joining the Tyrells was decisive. You wouldn't wait around for an army you don't need. The reason for the Tyrell attitude was probably that their position was weaker than people usually assume.

Mace may have had 70,000 men on paper, but he couldn't necessarily depend on most of them to fight Stannis. In effect many of Mace's own lesser lords had rebelled against his family. At Storm's End 4/5 of the Reach/Stormlander cavalry went over to Stannis. Those knights were the lords of the foot left at Bitterbridge (the poorer/weaker part of the army). So in a fight with Stannis their loyalty couldn't be counted on and some had probably already decided to go home anyway.

I suspect many were not barged down the river either, as that would take an awful lot of barges.

There would be logistical as well as political problems.

Furthermore, Mace and his bannermen probably wanted certainty about their rapprochement with the lannisters before taking the drastic gamble of trying to catch Stannis in the rear. Tywin's personal assurance was possibly needed, to stiffen the resolve of the bannermen, as much as Mace. After all, they were contemplating fighting for a king they'd previously been in open rebellion against.

For these reasons waiting for Tywin to arrive and confirm the LF proposal, and supplement the army with 20,000 or so fully reliable troops, made sense.

Why not? The Tyrells lesser lords who wanted Stannis went to Stannis. The idea lords would leave their men make no sense.

There was a awful lot of barges, else the army wouldn't have crossed.

The crown opend the door to friendship, not the Tyrells.

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You seem so proud to forget Mace agreed to join the Lannister cause at Britterbridge with Baelish, his fleets were rady by the time Tywin showed, and Baleish is the one that set up the plan of attack. He is the one that needed Tyrion out of power which needed Tywin.

Why not? They marched on him in the RR when they could have easily hunted a army less Robert.

You're in too much of a rush to respond and you're tripping up.

Littlefinger didn't plan the attack. First, Mace was most likely still at High Garden with the Magnificent 10k, so LF most likely negotiated with Olenna. But regardless, all LF plans is the murder of Joffrey.

And my point is that the Tyrell actions don't make sense if they were willing to go it alone.

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Because by the time anyone knew they were coming, say if Tywin was gone by this time, Mace coming is as unknown as Tywin's coming. As to him attacking him in the rear, he had outriders who would tell Tywin he was with Joffrey. How? hey outnumber Stannis in everyway. Mace's outriders can tell Mace if Tywin is coming to them,and they can talk, also, Mace's host was at the rush with ships, Tywin has none to catch him if Mace simple goes. How fast you think the Vale can assemble army, cross the rivers and race to KL without anyone knowing they are mobilizing? I think lighting speed. Oh my god, now Robb can rush from the Crag to KL? Amazing! That is unrealistic, Mace was at the rush, and all this could happen even with Tywin. They are the winning team, Stannis can't beat them.

The point is that the Tyrells do not know what is happening in the Vale or the Riverlands or with Robb. Hindsight makes these decision easy but Mace Tyrell does not have a clue what is going on in the rest of Westeroes . The Vale could have an army heading to Kings Landing and the Tyrells would be clueless. It's a very risky move by the Tyrells and it could result in them losing everything .

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The point is that the Tyrells do not know what is happening in the Vale or the Riverlands or with Robb. Hindsight makes these decision easy but Mace Tyrell does not have a clue what is going on in the rest of Westeroes . The Vale could have an army heading to Kings Landing and the Tyrells would be clueless. It's a very risky move by the Tyrells and it could result in them losing everything .

Littlefinger is the key negotiator with the Tyrells, he is the one who has guaranteed that the Vale would stay neutral.

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TLDTC, I don't want to fed the Robb can do no wrong crowd, but Tywin likely did not know all the plan till Mace outriders came to him.

In acok Tyrion,Cersei Varys and Littlefinger discuss the Tyrells at Bitterbridge and the prospect of a marriage alliance between Joffrey and Margaery. Littlefinger is then sent off with a retinue of 340 to Bitterbridge. In the time it took Littlefinger to reach Bitterbridge a Raven or even a messenger would would have reached the nearer Harenhall.

Littlefinger and the Tyrells then march to Tywin in the Riverlands, most likely because they would still be under the impression that the Siege of Storms End would take longer than two weeks.

Map of who was where.

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